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Watch your mouth or there will be trouble. You're lucky you didn't get an infraction.
There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:
Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004
Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.
That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).
Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).
What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?
well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "
Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.
*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "
Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.
*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
User | Country | Region | East Balkans | West Balkans | Pannonia | Total SEE | Baltics | NE Euro | Fin.,Russia | Mordovia | Total NEE | Aegean | North Italy | Tuscany | South Italy | Sardinia | Iberia | Basque | Total SE | NWE - GB | France | Germanic | Scandinavia | England,Wales | Scotland,Ireland | Total NWE | Armenia,Cyprus | North Turkey | South Turkey | Kurdish | Iran | Caucasus | Levant | Arabia | Total WA | Pashtun | Sindh | Total SA | Siberia | Mongolia,Manchuria | Northeast China | North China | South China | Southwest China | Japan and Korea | Southeast Asia | Total EA | Euro Unassigned | Y-DNA | mtDNA | |
1 | Romania | East | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 3.6% | 32.7% | 4.8% | 4.0% | 45.1% | 22.1% | 3.8% | 1.6% | 2.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 29.5% | 9.4% | 9.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 8.7% | 0.0% | 18.1% | 0.0% | 2.8% | 1.5% | 1.6% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 5.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.4% | 0.0% | I2a-S17250 | T2a1b1a | |
2 | Romania | South | 57.0% | 3.0% | 3.0% | 63.0% | 0.0% | 2.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.0% | 5.0% | 0.0% | 4.8% | 5.0% | 0.0% | 1.2% | 0.0% | 16.0% | 10.3% | 6.0% | 3.0% | 1.3% | 8.7% | 0.0% | 19.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | G2a-P303 | X2e1b | |
3 | Romania | South/West | 36.8% | 3.6% | 4.1% | 44.5% | 4.7% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.6% | 6.3% | 12.2% | 3.8% | 8.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 3.8% | 0.0% | 28.7% | 2.6% | 1.3% | 1.3% | 0.0% | 16.3% | 0.0% | 18.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.6% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.6% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
4 | Serbia | South | 43.7% | 7.1% | 1.2% | 52.0% | 8.1% | 1.5% | 1.9% | 0.0% | 11.5% | 4.7% | 4.9% | 13.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.0% | 0.0% | 23.6% | 7.0% | 4.2% | 0.0% | 2.8% | 1.9% | 0.0% | 8.9% | 0.0% | 2.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.6% | 0.0% | 4.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
5 | Serbia | East | 9.9% | 13.5% | 32.5% | 55.9% | 0.0% | 12.9% | 1.6% | 2.4% | 16.9% | 0.0% | 2.1% | 8.5% | 2.6% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 13.2% | 7.5% | 4.6% | 0.0% | 2.9% | 3.5% | 0.0% | 11.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.8% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.8% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
6 | Bulgaria | N/A | 13.0% | 8.0% | 6.0% | 27.0% | 2.0% | 5.0% | 6.0% | 0.0% | 13.0% | 34.0% | 13.0% | 1.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 48.0% | 3.0% | 0.0% | 3.0% | 0.0% | 8.0% | 0.0% | 11.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.0% | 1.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
7 | Bulgaria | N/A | 18.0% | 4.0% | 14.0% | 36.0% | 3.0% | 8.0% | 0.0% | 3.0% | 14.0% | 12.0% | 6.0% | 2.0% | 12.0% | 0.0% | 5.0% | 0.0% | 37.0% | 7.0% | 3.0% | 3.0% | 1.0% | 3.0% | 0.0% | 10.0% | 0.0% | 1.0% | 0.0% | 1.0% | 0.0% | 1.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 3.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
8 | Bulgaria | N/A | 22.4% | 11.0% | 10.1% | 43.5% | 2.4% | 5.6% | 0.0% | 3.0% | 11.0% | 3.1% | 3.4% | 10.9% | 12.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 30.3% | 8.4% | 0.0% | 8.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 8.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.3% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.3% | 4.5% | 0.0% | 4.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
9 | Greece | North/South | 43.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 43.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 14.0% | 11.1% | 0.0% | 3.4% | 0.0% | 28.5% | 3.5% | 3.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 3.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 11.0% | 0.0% | 6.5% | 0.0% | 17.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.9% | |||
10 | Greece | North/South | 5.5% | 1.6% | 1.5% | 8.6% | 0.0% | 1.3% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.3% | 44.1% | 3.5% | 13.4% | 12.3% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 73.3% | 12.2% | 8.0% | 2.4% | 1.8% | 4.5% | 0.0% | 16.7% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | |||
11 | Greece | North/South | 14.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 14.0% | 2.0% | 0.0% | 2.0% | 0.0% | 4.0% | 30.5% | 0.0% | 10.0% | 17.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 58.4% | 11.9% | 3.2% | 2.7% | 6.0% | 1.8% | 0.0% | 13.7% | 0.0% | 6.3% | 0.0% | 1.3% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.1% | 0.0% | 9.7% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | A1a | ||
12 | Greece | South | 2.0% | 0.0% | 2.1% | 4.1% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.2% | 0.0% | 1.2% | 44.2% | 0.0% | 11.3% | 16.6% | 1.7% | 1.9% | 0.0% | 75.7% | 7.5% | 2.7% | 1.4% | 3.4% | 5.6% | 0.0% | 13.1% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.3% | 3.6% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 5.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | J1-PF7263 | H1 | |
13 | Albania | North | 0.0% | 7.5% | 0.0% | 7.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 65.2% | 6.7% | 3.0% | 4.0% | 1.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 80.4% | 1.3% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.3% | 6.7% | 0.0% | 8.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.1% | 2.1% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 1.9% | R1a-L1029* | H11a2* | |
14 | Albania | South | 6.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 6.4% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 64.5% | 1.3% | 7.0% | 0.0% | 1.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 74.3% | 3.6% | 1.2% | 2.4% | 0.0% | 6.9% | 0.0% | 10.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.5% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.5% | 2.9% | 0.0% | 2.9% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 3.4% | I-CTS10228 | H-15 | |
15 | Albania | North | 6.2% | 12.1% | 0.0% | 18.3% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 59.0% | 7.8% | 12.8% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 79.6% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 2.1% | 0.0% | 2.1% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | 0.0% | E-V13>FGC33625 | U1a1a |
That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).
Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).
What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?
Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.
Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?
Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.
The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.
They were soft
Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians
There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din.
.That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?
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Albanian word for the ugly enemy is Dushmani, which is Albanian linguistic version of Dushani ( tzar Dushani))
That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g002
As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.
Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?
The answer is obviously male-biased migration.
They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.
I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.
However, the Bosnian Croats are autosomally MUCH closer to Kajkavians (northwerstern Croats) then to Albanians, so I don't see your point. The "difference" that you stressed is insignificant when you put it into a larger context.
In this PCA plot you can see the where Bosnian Croats plot in comparson to the other southeastern Europe populations, including Kosovars (mainly ethnic Albanians):
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/a...id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003
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