Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[Ygorcs]

well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

Northern and Central Illyrians could lack I2a-Din (I somehow doubt they lacked I2 entirely, though it could not have been among their main Y-DNA haplogroup), but still be autosomally more northern in terms of admixture distribution than their southern counterparts in Greece, Macedonia and Albania, especially if (as I think it's likely) they had been subject to much more northern influences than people in South Balkans (Illyrians in the northern areas are actually supposed to be part of the Hallstatt cultural zone, for example). They could have just had a different history of success and failure in male lineages, but that does not tell us much about their entire ancestral history (for example Basques are overwhelmingly R1b-L51 and Irish people, too, but the latter have very much more BA Steppe ancestry). I won't say all or even most of that "Polish affinity" can be explained this way, but I'd bet that some of it can.

[gidai]

Here are some data (from LDNA on diferent forums posts).
I do not see any Slavic category ... What is it?

User	Country	Region	East Balkans	West Balkans		Pannonia	Total SEE	Baltics	NE Euro	Fin.,Russia	Mordovia	Total NEE	Aegean	North Italy	Tuscany	South Italy	Sardinia	Iberia	Basque	Total SE	NWE - GB	France	Germanic	Scandinavia	England,Wales	Scotland,Ireland	Total NWE	Armenia,Cyprus	North Turkey	South Turkey	Kurdish	Iran	Caucasus	Levant	Arabia	Total WA	Pashtun	Sindh	Total SA	Siberia	Mongolia,Manchuria	Northeast China	North China	South China	Southwest China	Japan and Korea	Southeast Asia	Total EA	Euro Unassigned	Y-DNA	mtDNA
1	Romania	East	0.0%	0.0%		0.0%	0.0%	3.6%	32.7%	4.8%	4.0%	45.1%	22.1%	3.8%	1.6%	2.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	29.5%	9.4%	9.4%	0.0%	0.0%	8.7%	0.0%	18.1%	0.0%	2.8%	1.5%	1.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	5.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.4%	0.0%	I2a-S17250	T2a1b1a
2	Romania	South	57.0%	3.0%		3.0%	63.0%	0.0%	2.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.0%	5.0%	0.0%	4.8%	5.0%	0.0%	1.2%	0.0%	16.0%	10.3%	6.0%	3.0%	1.3%	8.7%	0.0%	19.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	G2a-P303	X2e1b
3	Romania	South/West	36.8%	3.6%		4.1%	44.5%	4.7%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	6.3%	12.2%	3.8%	8.9%	0.0%	0.0%	3.8%	0.0%	28.7%	2.6%	1.3%	1.3%	0.0%	16.3%	0.0%	18.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
4	Serbia	South	43.7%	7.1%		1.2%	52.0%	8.1%	1.5%	1.9%	0.0%	11.5%	4.7%	4.9%	13.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	23.6%	7.0%	4.2%	0.0%	2.8%	1.9%	0.0%	8.9%	0.0%	2.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.6%	0.0%	4.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
5	Serbia	East	9.9%	13.5%		32.5%	55.9%	0.0%	12.9%	1.6%	2.4%	16.9%	0.0%	2.1%	8.5%	2.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	13.2%	7.5%	4.6%	0.0%	2.9%	3.5%	0.0%	11.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.8%	0.0%	0.0%	2.8%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
6	Bulgaria	N/A	13.0%	8.0%		6.0%	27.0%	2.0%	5.0%	6.0%	0.0%	13.0%	34.0%	13.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	48.0%	3.0%	0.0%	3.0%	0.0%	8.0%	0.0%	11.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
7	Bulgaria	N/A	18.0%	4.0%		14.0%	36.0%	3.0%	8.0%	0.0%	3.0%	14.0%	12.0%	6.0%	2.0%	12.0%	0.0%	5.0%	0.0%	37.0%	7.0%	3.0%	3.0%	1.0%	3.0%	0.0%	10.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	3.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
8	Bulgaria	N/A	22.4%	11.0%		10.1%	43.5%	2.4%	5.6%	0.0%	3.0%	11.0%	3.1%	3.4%	10.9%	12.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	30.3%	8.4%	0.0%	8.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	8.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.3%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.3%	4.5%	0.0%	4.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
9	Greece	North/South	43.9%	0.0%		0.0%	43.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	14.0%	11.1%	0.0%	3.4%	0.0%	28.5%	3.5%	3.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	3.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	11.0%	0.0%	6.5%	0.0%	17.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.9%
10	Greece	North/South	5.5%	1.6%		1.5%	8.6%	0.0%	1.3%	0.0%	0.0%	1.3%	44.1%	3.5%	13.4%	12.3%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	73.3%	12.2%	8.0%	2.4%	1.8%	4.5%	0.0%	16.7%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%
11	Greece	North/South	14.0%	0.0%		0.0%	14.0%	2.0%	0.0%	2.0%	0.0%	4.0%	30.5%	0.0%	10.0%	17.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	58.4%	11.9%	3.2%	2.7%	6.0%	1.8%	0.0%	13.7%	0.0%	6.3%	0.0%	1.3%	0.0%	0.0%	2.1%	0.0%	9.7%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%		A1a
12	Greece	South	2.0%	0.0%		2.1%	4.1%	0.0%	0.0%	1.2%	0.0%	1.2%	44.2%	0.0%	11.3%	16.6%	1.7%	1.9%	0.0%	75.7%	7.5%	2.7%	1.4%	3.4%	5.6%	0.0%	13.1%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.3%	3.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	5.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	J1-PF7263	H1
13	Albania	North	0.0%	7.5%		0.0%	7.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	65.2%	6.7%	3.0%	4.0%	1.5%	0.0%	0.0%	80.4%	1.3%	0.0%	0.0%	1.3%	6.7%	0.0%	8.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.1%	2.1%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	1.9%	R1a-L1029*	H11a2*
14	Albania	South	6.4%	0.0%		0.0%	6.4%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	64.5%	1.3%	7.0%	0.0%	1.5%	0.0%	0.0%	74.3%	3.6%	1.2%	2.4%	0.0%	6.9%	0.0%	10.5%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.5%	0.0%	0.0%	2.5%	2.9%	0.0%	2.9%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	3.4%	I-CTS10228	H-15
15	Albania	North	6.2%	12.1%		0.0%	18.3%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	59.0%	7.8%	12.8%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	79.6%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	2.1%	0.0%	2.1%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	E-V13>FGC33625	U1a1a

[Gheg]

That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?

Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.

What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.

[Crya]

Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.

That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

[HiveMindTerror]

They were soft

[Ygorcs]

Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?



Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.



The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.

Not necessarily in terms of autosomal DNA. They could have had a similar Y-DNA makeup due to the strong patrilineality of most BA and IA Indo-European groups and eventual founder effects, but that could have not prevented gradual mixing with neighboring populations, especially northerners. Also, I really do not know, so I ask: do we have ancient Iron Age (so presumably Illyrian "proper") auDNA and Y-DNA from all of the Western Balkans, stretching from Croatia/Slovenia to Albania in the south? If not, how can we assume that all of the "northern" input was necessarily an addition into a homogeneously Albanian-like people (and see that the proxy used was Poland, which clearly had Central & Northwest European influences, too - Germanic most of all)? I'm not saying the Illyrians were just a linguistic community without a coherent and uniform genetic structure, but I somehow doubt no substructure would've been found. Let's say e.g. that the Southern Illyrians were "70% core Illyrian + 30% extra South European", while Northern Illyrians were "70% proto-Illyrian + 30% extra North/Central European". They'd still form a mostly homogeneous linguistic and genetic unity, but with clear substructure.

That does not even imply, of course, that the genetic replacement by Slavs was not really large, or that depopulation of much of the Balkans did not happen (allowing Slavs to migrate and conquer more easily). That is not what I'm trying to say, but just that we may be overestimating its impact a bit (as I said in my first speculative example, say 40% instead of 29%, not that big a difference) by using as proxies of Illyrians of the North Balkans the modern-day Albanians, and as proxies of the Slavs the modern Polish (I'd personally have preferred a Belarusian proxy, but I'm no expert on this subject, so leave it at that). As I said previously, I find it really hard to believe that, if the Slavic expansion was really a people migration as it seems, and not a linguistic/cultural expansion more than anything else, they would've had such a populous society in such a highly populated homeland that they would be able to settle much of Europe from Eastern Germany to Northwest Russia and from there to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece - and yet they'd have numbers enough to make a demic impact of more than 70% in sizeable parts of the Balkans. They would have to have had a huge population to achieve that feat, or then an unprecedented population boom in the latter centuries of the Middle Ages to make that happen.

[markod]

They were soft

To the contrary. One can see this in the linguistic evidence: while Slavic borrowings in Albanian mainly pertain to industry and agricultural life, Albanian borrowings in Serbo-Croatian usually have to do with warlike virtues, tribal organisation and such. One could argue that the men who fathered the Serbo-Croats were assimilated into the Paleo-Balkanic cultural milieu, though not linguistically. At least this is the thesis of the Austrian sociologist Karl Käser who might perhaps be most insightful author on Western Balkanic matters.

[Srbadija]

Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians

They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.

There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din.

I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.

[Tutkun Arnaut]

That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

.

Nobody will ever know for sure, but there are two versions according to me: Illyrians could have been in contact with Slavs before been invaded and invited them to settle in sparsely populated areas to defend against avars and other Turkic invaders. The mindset could have been different at that time. But it did change latter. Albanian word for the ugly enemy is Dushmani, which is Albanian linguistic version of Dushani ( tzar Dushani))The Slavs may not have been seen as bad as they are seen today. Ones the first wave of Slavs came peacefully the second one was a tsunami.
In sparsity of Albanian population there were two known factors: Roman constantly drafting, left Albanian areas always male short. Illyrian males were serving in Roman outposts from England to Egypt. Also at the 5th century there is a known plague. There are extensive records about that. The extent of that plague was devastating. That is the period of first Slavs coming to Balkans as well. So Illyrians had no time to recover their numbers over the devastation of plague.

[td120]

.

Albanian word for the ugly enemy is Dushmani, which is Albanian linguistic version of Dushani ( tzar Dushani))

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A...%D9%86#Persian

[LABERIA]

That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

If you watch the Deretiç videos on YouTube you will never learn anything about history.

[Wonomyro]

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e-0105090-g002

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.

Data in a way it is presented above is a bit misleading as one can't easily compare distant blocks, e. g. Hungary is for some strange reason moved into the group with France (West Europe) even though there is striking similarity between Hungarian and Croatian data and the both countries share common history and geography. IMO the PCA plot gives us clearer picture of the relatedness of the analyzed populations:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0105090.g003

Two major clusters could be identified in the geographic region between Ukraine and Albania. It is clear that Bosnian Croats, as well as the rest of the Croats and Bosnians, and Hungarians, "live" in the "northern" cluster which is closer to the Slavic homeland. The populations with more southern Europe ancestry are, obviously, Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, Montenegrins and Serbians.

[Wonomyro]

Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?


The answer is obviously male-biased migration.

However, the Bosnian Croats are autosomally MUCH closer to Kajkavians (northwerstern Croats) then to Albanians, so I don't see your point. The "difference" that you stressed is insignificant when you put it into a larger context.

In this PCA plot you can see where Bosnian Croats plot in comparson to the other southeastern Europe populations, including Kosovars (mainly ethnic Albanians):

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0105090.g003

[Dibran]

They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.



I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.

Maybe. However, absent any ADNA for M458 the theories range from Carpathian origin, Lusatian around Gdansk, or Trziniec Culture, a eastern offshoot culture of Lusatian. We won't know for certain without ancient remains. Given most of its diversity ranged from Romania to Poland, and the highest concentration is in Central Europe, this is where its proposed origin has been mentioned. Many of the tribes Romans called East Germanic may not have even been so. Time will tell.

[markod]

However, the Bosnian Croats are autosomally MUCH closer to Kajkavians (northwerstern Croats) then to Albanians, so I don't see your point. The "difference" that you stressed is insignificant when you put it into a larger context.

In this PCA plot you can see the where Bosnian Croats plot in comparson to the other southeastern Europe populations, including Kosovars (mainly ethnic Albanians):

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0105090.g003

My point is that Bosnian Croats received female-biased admixture from Paleo-Balkanic populations, which is why they lie on a cline between Albanians/Tuscans and Ukrainians on your PCA. Of course Bosnian Croats are closer to other Croats than they are to Albanians.

[Crya]

If you watch the Deretiç videos on YouTube you will never learn anything about history.

Lol. Are you serious? If you don't want to reply to this question, keep silent. Don't come with stupid conclusions.

[HiveMindTerror]

I was wondering, is there a possible connection to Germanic tribes? Ostogoths, Vandals, etc, all passed through the region. Ostogoths even established a kingdom around x yugo territory for a couple of hundred years. Is such a heritage too far fetched?

Also, while reading across this forum I noticed many people commenting a possible ancestry from the Bastarnae? Were the Bastarnae heavy i2 or is this just a theory?

[Dibran]

I was wondering, is there a possible connection to Germanic tribes? Ostogoths, Vandals, etc, all passed through the region. Ostogoths even established a kingdom around x yugo territory for a couple of hundred years. Is such a heritage too far fetched?

Also, while reading across this forum I noticed many people commenting a possible ancestry from the Bastarnae? Were the Bastarnae heavy i2 or is this just a theory?

Anything is possible but the most probable case is its just Proto-Slavic. Bastarnae is just a theory but one which is more reasonable compared to others. They are believed to be connected to the Zarubintsy Culture, which has also been regarded by many as Proto-Slavic. Theres also no agreement on whether they were Germanic or Celtic, or even possibly Proto-Slavic. Roman writers could have been wrong. The problem is people take their accounts as gospel truth. Today you have the western world who can't distinguish between Albanians and other Balkan peoples ans just refer to everyone as "Yugoslavian". Many tribes referred to as "East Germanic" may have actually been Baltic and Even Proto-Slavic. Bastarnae among them.

[Wonomyro]

My point is that Bosnian Croats received female-biased admixture from Paleo-Balkanic populations, which is why they lie on a cline between Albanians/Tuscans and Ukrainians on your PCA. Of course Bosnian Croats are closer to other Croats than they are to Albanians.

Surely they did. But not much more then the rest of Croats, Hungarians, and other populations that share the same cluster did. What I can see here is that the territories of the former Roman provinces of Panonnia and Dalmatia are genetically pretty much rounded up.

[LABERIA]

Lol. Are you serious? If you don't want to reply to this question, keep silent. Don't come with stupid conclusions.

Sorry but your question is stupid. I remember perfectly a video of Deretiç when at a certain point he opens his eyes in an exaggerated way and with an idiot expression printed on his face, as if he wanted to say, look, there is something here, he asked exactly the same question. Here in Albania, these things are taught to children when they begin to study history at the age of 11-12 maybe.
Someone here has given an answer to your question. In short, there have been barbarian invasions, wars, famine, epidemics, etc, that have caused a demographic decline in the Balkans at that time. Did not they teach you this things at school in your country?

[mihaitzateo]

I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?

I think it depends from person to person.
But in most cases, ex-Yugos, are having more Balkan admixture than NE European admixture.
The ex-Yugos should also have a significant (20% or more) percent of NW European admixture.
Another thing, NE admixture does not necessary means Slavic origin, it can also be East Germanics and especially Goths, origins.
According to common sense, Goths came from the land of Poland and East Germany and not from Gotaland (the origin of Goths in Gotaland is just a myth, a legend, not the truth).
South Baltic admixture should be what early proto-Slavs had mostly, when they started to move South, East and West.
So it would be needed some more detailed DNA testing to be able to make difference between Slavic and East Germanic autosomal DNA.

[Wonomyro]

Also, while reading across this forum I noticed many people commenting a possible ancestry from the Bastarnae? Were the Bastarnae heavy i2 or is this just a theory?

A pure fantasy.

[HiveMindTerror]

According to what Dibran said it seems fairlt reasonable. Or is he simply wrong?

[Aspar]

I think it depends from person to person.
But in most cases, ex-Yugos, are having more Balkan admixture than NE European admixture.
The ex-Yugos should also have a significant (20% or more) percent of NW European admixture.
Another thing, NE admixture does not necessary means Slavic origin, it can also be East Germanics and especially Goths, origins.
According to common sense, Goths came from the land of Poland and East Germany and not from Gotaland (the origin of Goths in Gotaland is just a myth, a legend, not the truth).
South Baltic admixture should be what early proto-Slavs had mostly, when they started to move South, East and West.
So it would be needed some more detailed DNA testing to be able to make difference between Slavic and East Germanic autosomal DNA.

That's not true at all!
Ex Yugos are not a single entity, in matter of fact, they were people very different, in both, genetics and culture!
There are worlds apart between Slovenes or Croatians to Macedonians!

And most ex-Yugos don't have more Balkanic than NE European admixture!
The only ones with more Balkanic admixture would be Macedonians and some Southern Serbs!

For example, I am from the South-Eastern part of Rep. of Macedonia.
When comparing myself with ancient samples using Eurogenes K36 data on nMonte, I get these results:

[1] "distance%=10.4265"


Aspar


South-East-Euro, 40.6
Early-Slavic, 29.7
Crimean_Greek_KER_1, 22.3
Levant-Egypt, 4
Gepid_VIM_2, 3.4


On other hand, this are results of a Serbian user on another forum:

"distance%=10.6922"

....

Early-Slavic,27.2
South-East-Euro,25.6
Dutch shifted Baiuvar,16.8
Early-Baltic,16
Crimean Greek,14.4

These are ancient genome proxies for the calculator:
NW-Germanic
MA_AngloSaxon_HS1
MA_AngloSaxon_HS2
MA_Northumbria_NO3423
IA_Germano-Celt_3DRIF16
IA_Germano-Celt_6DRIF3
3kyaBA_Sweden_RISE175
IA_Sweden_RISE174

NW-Celtic
IA_BritishCelt_6DRIF23
IA_Celtic-Briton_HI1
IA_Celtic-Briton_HI4
IA_Gaelic-Celt_6DRIF18
IA_Gaulish-Celt_6DRIF22
IA_Pictish-Brit_6DRIF21
3kyaMBA_Germany_RISE471
4kyaBA_Ireland_Rathlin1

Early-Slavic
MA_Niemcza34
MA_Markowice7
MA_RISE568
MA_RISE569

Early Medieval (MA) from Poland and Czech Republic.

Early-Baltic:
RISE598

Iron-Age-LBA-Steppe
IA_Altai_RISE492
IA_Altai_RISE600
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0576
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0577
IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9
IA_ScythianPazyryk_I0563
3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE493
3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE497
4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE515
4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE516
3kyaLBA_Baikal_RISE554
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247b
IA_ScythianZevakino_Ze6
IA_Sarmatian_I0574
IA_Sarmatian_I0575
IA_Sarmatian_I0575b
IA_ScythianIsmailovo_Is2
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE523
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE524
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE525

Levant-Egypt:
4kyaBA_Sidon
IA_Egypt_JK2134
IA_Egypt_JK2888
IA_Egypt_JK2911
IA_Egypt_JK2911b
4kyaBA_Levant_I1705
4kyaBA_Levant_I1706
4kyaBA_Levant_I1730
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b

Ancient-Iran:
IA_Iran_F38
MA_Iran_I1955
6kyaCA_Iran_I1661a
6kyaCA_Iran_I1661b
6kyaCA_Iran_I1662
6kyaCA_Iran_I1665
6kyaCA_Iran_I1665b
6kyaCA_Iran_I1670
6kyaCA_Iran_I1674

Anatolia-Armenia:
6kyaCA_MarmaraSea_I1584
5kyaBA_Anatolia_I2499
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1633
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1635
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1658
4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE413
4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE416
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE397
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE407
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE412
3kyaMBA_Armenia_I1656
3kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE423

South-East Euro:
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9006
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9010
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9033
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9041
3kyaBA_CreteArmenoi_I9123

South-West Euro:
3kyaBA_Iberia_ATP9
5kyaCA_Iberia_ATP2
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1280
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1274
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1277
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1281
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1303
5kyaLN_Portugal_Monte-Canelas1
3kyaBA_Portugal_ERR1524174
3kyaBA_Portugal_I0207
3kyaBA_Portugal_MonteGato
3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelha
3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelhaB

South-Central Euro:

4kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE486
4kyaBA_Minoan_I0070
4kyaBA_Minoan_I0073
5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE487
5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE489

Central-Euro-4kya:
4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1
4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1b
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE247
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE254
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE349
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE371
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE373
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE374
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE479
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE480
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE483
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE484
3kyaLBA_Hungary_BR2
IA_Hungary_IR1
3kyaLBA_Germany_I0099
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE577
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0114
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0115
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0116
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0117
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE109
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE150
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154b
4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE566
4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE567
4kyaBB_Germany_I0058
4kyaBB_Germany_I0059
4kyaBB_Germany_I0060
4kyaBB_Germany_I0112
4kyaBB_Germany_I0113
4kyaBB_Germany_I0806
4kyaBB_Germany_RISE560
4kyaBB_Germany_RISE563
4kyaCA_Germany_I0118
4kyaEBA_Cuiavia_PLN17
4kyaEBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0049
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0103
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0104
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0106
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0108
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0111
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0550

Roman soldier from south Germany FN_2
Crimean Greek (KER_1)
Gepid with Central-Asian input (VIM_2)
Dutch shifted Baiuvar (ALH_10)
Swedish shifted Baiuvar AED_204

As you can see, I can be modeled as 30%(Early-Slavic) NE European or 33% if we include the Gepid influence and 63%(SE Euro + Crimean) SE European or 67% if we include Levant-Egypt!
While the Serb can be modeled as 43%(Early-Slavic + Early-Baltic), 40%(SE-Euro + Crimean) and 17% NW-Euro!

[markod]

According to what Dibran said it seems fairlt reasonable. Or is he simply wrong?

There's simply no plausible reason to think so. But the South Slavs most likely assimilated remnants of the Germanic populations in the Balkans, and the signal is especially visible in Serbs and eastern Bulgarians. Probably Gepids, but it's difficult to say for sure.