Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 36 of 36 FirstFirst ... 26343536
Results 876 to 892 of 892

Thread: Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

  1. #876
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    625
    Points
    6,446
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,446, Level: 23
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 104
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    It clearly is NOT. That can easily be proved from the same defter of 1526.


    Some other people mentioned in 1526:
    Ibrahim Karamani
    Mustafa Siroz
    Ahmed Adana, Ilijas Adana
    Armagan Filibe
    Pervane Madjar, gulam
    Husein Ungurus, gulam

    What does this have to do with Croats in that area? Croats are also mentioned in the ethnonyms and toponyms in that wider area (in other sources). In that area are probably mentoned and Dukljans, Vlachs, Montenegrins, Serbs, Rascians etc and it does not refute presence of Croats in that area.

    That has nothing to do with the context of Hrvat in this census of 1526. Many surnames of the "Croat or Bosniak" sort are also geographic designations "the one who came from Croatia, Bosnia".
    How has nothing to do? In that time and earlier in wider space of Sanjak (southern Serbia) exist Croatian ethnonym(I previously quoted data). In Niksic (central Montenegro) Croat is mentioned by Evliya Çelebi 1611 – 1682, as well in the register from year 1526. In that register there are also mention Croats around Sarajevo.

    Defter of Isa-beg Krajiste from 1455 (Krajiste Isa bega Isakovica, zbirni katastarski popis iz 1455.), Sabanovic
    pg127
    GULAM (ar.Gulam) boy, servant, slave, vassal
    Therefore the evidence does not exist. I asked for a proof and link where it is claimed that word Gulam means servant or anything else. Only Sabanovic claims that and it is his personal opinion without any verifiable evidence especially from Turkish sources. In register of the Bosnian army from year 1526. Sabanovic proves its claims with words I quote
    probably and seems like
    therefore there is no proof what exactly term Gulam means.


    Your referred to the Eyalet of Bosnia which didn't exist at that time, Sanjak of Bosnia did, those are two different administrative designations.
    Register of the Bosnian army, 1526.
    "It is known that all area on territory of medieval Bosnian state, which are Ottomans then occupied, been included in two sandžak: Bosnian and Herzegovinian Sandžak."
    "By 1526, when our defter being created, Ottomans had occupied almost all of that areas with exception of the so-called " jajačka banovina"

    The Sanjak of Herzegovina (Turkish: Hersek Sancağı) was an Ottoman administrative unit established in 1470.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Herzegovina

    Sanjak of Bosnia (Turkish: Bosna Sancağı, Serbo-Croatian: Bosanski sandžak) was one of the sanjaks of the Ottoman Empire established in 1463
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Bosnia

    Btw as you like to talk about Croats, I think I've found likely genetic traces of real Croats, you know not the usual people.:) They don't exist among Serbs but it seems Croats quite possibly did have Alanic elite among Slavic haplogroups (I2a or R1a branches).:) Congratulations!! I couldn't spot yet any R-Z93 but some other interesting haplotypes are there.

    Sir, if you want to know more about origin of Croatians feel free to look and learn something.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia
    Last edited by hrvat22; 14-12-18 at 21:50.

  2. #877
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Looks like shit, no offence. BiH Serbs and Bosniaks more northern shifted than Croats ? Yeah right lol
    Wouldn't be suprised if Serbs made this fake PCA. Nevgen calc is made by people from Poreklo. And only Serbs call Bosniaks BiH-muslims, to imply they are not legit ethnic group.

    Other time post serious work dude.
    People from Eastern part of Bosnia and Herzegowina are generally more northern shifted than others.

  3. #878
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Atlantische's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-16
    Posts
    35
    Points
    2,385
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,385, Level: 13
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L497

    Ethnic group
    Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    People from Eastern part of Bosnia and Herzegowina are generally more northern shifted than others.
    They weren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Looks like shit, no offence. BiH Serbs and Bosniaks more northern shifted than Croats ? Yeah right lol
    Wouldn't be suprised if Serbs made this fake PCA. Nevgen calc is made by people from Poreklo. And only Serbs call Bosniaks BiH-muslims, to imply they are not legit ethnic group.

    Other time post serious work dude.
    I'm not sure are we looking at same PCA, but most of Croats are more ''northern'' shifted than Serbs.

  4. #879
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-05-18
    Posts
    59
    Points
    907
    Level
    7
    Points: 907, Level: 7
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantische View Post
    They weren't.



    I'm not sure are we looking at same PCA, but most of Croats are more ''northern'' shifted than Serbs.
    We are speaking about Bosnian Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks. If you really don't believe in what i am saying, then just search for Carleton Coon's work about Balkan anthropology.

  5. #880
    Enfant Terrible Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points
    Wonomyro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-17
    Posts
    462
    Points
    890
    Level
    7
    Points: 890, Level: 7
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 60
    Overall activity: 35.0%


    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    We are speaking about Bosnian Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks. If you really don't believe in what i am saying, then just search for Carleton Coon's work about Balkan anthropology.
    What does Coon's work have to do with autosomal data?
    Neopisivo

  6. #881
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    625
    Points
    6,446
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,446, Level: 23
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 104
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Aspurg


    Defter of Isa-beg Krajiste from 1455 (Krajiste Isa bega Isakovica, zbirni katastarski popis iz 1455.), Sabanovic

    pg127
    GULAM (ar.Gulam) boy, servant, slave, vassal


    Therefore the evidence does not exist. I asked for a proof and link where it is claimed that word Gulam means servant or anything else. Only Sabanovic claims that and it is his personal opinion without any verifiable evidence especially from Turkish sources. In register of the Bosnian army from year 1526. Sabanovic proves its claims with words I quote
    probably and seems like


    therefore there is no proof whatexactly term Gulam means.
    I saw that Ahmed Aličić use "encyclopedia of Islam" as evidence for word Gulam and it should be respected.
    However and for term Merd he says that that can be lexical synonym with word Gulam, but the word Merd has an older meaning whose "servant" origin is forgotten. If is true that term Merd in fact means Servant then and soliders with ethnonym Bosnia has the same source because they are mentioned as Merdovi.

    Since most of Croats are marked as Gulam it does not mean that they are brought from another place as slaves, same goes and for Bosnians. They are autochthonous Croats under Turkish rule which also exist in Bosnia and wider Sandžak area ( that proves and other historical sources). This is just one of the evidence who speaks about presence of Croats in the area of eastern Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia etc.

    This register from year 1526. does not say about capture or taking Croats from one place to another, it's just talking about Croats in this area. "According to reports of the provinces Carinthia, Kranjska and Styria (Slovenia), Turks were by year 1508. take to slavery or killed allegedly 200,000 Slovenians."
    If these slaves are brought to Bosnia where is this visible? Very likely Croatian and Slovenian slaves going to Turkey, that would be logic.

    Borders of Sanjak of Herzegovina in that time does not enter much to Croatia state from that time(it should be then under Bosnian rule), for Sanjak of Bosnia I do not have maps from that time. I know that Klis fell under Turks year 1537. Knin year 1522. Benkovac year 1538.

    Most of Dalmatia fall under Turks at the time occurrence of Bosnian army register or later, so it is a question exactly from which concrete areas are Croats in the Bosnian army register with consideration that there are a lot of them, who are their descendants today since they all have Muslim names?

    It is interesting that Ahmed Aličić considers that these Croats from that register are from Knin, Drniš area? He states that it is not a large geographical area but number of Muslims from that area is very large? Croatian wikipedia states that Nahia(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahiyah) in Drniš was already established in year 1528. this would mean that Croats were Islamized in a couple of years which is unlikely because the Turkish administration comes there in year 1528. I do not think that these Croats are just from that small area, they must also be from Bosnia.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 16-12-18 at 14:31.

  7. #882
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Atlantische's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-16
    Posts
    35
    Points
    2,385
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,385, Level: 13
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L497

    Ethnic group
    Serb
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    We are speaking about Bosnian Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks. If you really don't believe in what i am saying, then just search for Carleton Coon's work about Balkan anthropology.
    That literally doesn't have anything with autosomal PCA's.

  8. #883
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    23-01-19
    Posts
    10
    Points
    40
    Level
    1
    Points: 40, Level: 1
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 10
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    I guess so

  9. #884
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Their father was called Nemanja. Nemanjić means son of Nemanja".
    Do we know the Nemanjic Y-Dna lineage? Considering he was baptized as a Catholic in Montenegro, its possible he has Albanian or even Croatian origins. There seems to be hints at this from unconnected authors. Would be quite interesting if the Nemanjic dynasty was non-serbian in origin. He gave his daughter Komnena to the Albanian Prince of Arbanon, Dhimitër Progoni



    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  10. #885
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Interesting account from Edith Durham. In 1909, visiting the Devic Monastery in Drenica, she meets the head priest, who admits quite casually to being Albanian, although assimilating into the Serbian ethnos because of Orthodoxy.


  11. #886
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    During the time of Dushan, he cracked down on Catholics in Kosovo, and those that didn't convert were punished with death. Islam wasn't yet in the balkans, for Albanians, converting also entailed taking serbian name, attending religion in serbian language, i.e. assimilation. If serbs are getting high balkan, this period definitely could contribute to it, where bigger waves of assimilation happened.


  12. #887
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,198
    Points
    39,935
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,935, Level: 61
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 415
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    hm

    something is strange here,

    Around 1 century Simon Simeonsis writes that Albanians were the 3rd speaking group
    But he does not Say about Slavic, But to Latin Speakers,

    So if the Above is truth,
    How come 1 century After Simeonsis Finds

    primary Speaking the Latin
    Second the Greek
    and 3rd Albanian,

    So if the Serbs, Slavicised the Albanians, as it is said above.
    Then why 1 Century after we find major speaking the Latin, the Greek, the Albanian, and not Slavic
    and not the Slavic !!!!!!

    Also strange is the thing that Nemanjik Stefan was entitled by the papal authorities, not orthodox ones,
    and was not affected by Latinocracy of 4rth Crusade which destroyed East Roman empire.
    And Radoslav Stefan was almost to enter the Roman Catholic Church the era of Pope Inokentios 3rd,


    indeed the above seems to be strange comparing on what I read above.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  13. #888
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    574
    Points
    3,569
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,569, Level: 17
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 281
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

    1322
    Simon Fitzsimons:
    Itinerary from Ireland
    to the Holy Land

    Narratives of pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land provide a primary source of information for much of the eastern Mediterranean in the first half of the second millennium, and in one such narrative (1) dating from the year 1322, we find a passage about Albania. Although many pilgrims showed no more than a passing interest in the lands they visited en route to their goal, two Anglo-Irish pilgrims of the Franciscan Order, Symon Semeonis and Hugo Illuminator, whom we may refer to in English as Simon Fitzsimons and Hugh the Illuminator, were impressed by their short stopover in Albania, and the former vividly recorded what he saw, a rare glimpse of the Albanian coast in the first half of the fourteenth century. The 'Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam' (The Itinerary of Simon Fitzsimons from Ireland to the Holy Land) contains a wealth of information on matters as varied as customs inspections and procedures, costumes, coinage, raw materials and products of the countries he visited and of course on churches and holy sites. It is apparent from the narrative that in 1322 the port of Durrës had not recovered entirely from the disastrous earthquake which had struck it half a century earlier. The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanian nomads from the countryside. That Albanian must now have been widely spoken on the coastal plain and in the mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon's initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the 'barbaric Albanians' are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they had not yet formed the majority group. Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian 'barbarians' in Dubrovnik, too, noting: "In eadem dominantur Veneti, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii scismatici negotiatores qui sunt in gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes" (The Venetians dominate in it (Dubrovnik) and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).

    And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5) and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. The city itself is very extensive in the circuit of its walls, but small and unpretentious in its buildings because it was once razed to the ground in an earthquake (6), and in the destruction, its wealthiest citizens and inhabitants were buried beneath their own palaces and indeed a good 24,000 are reported to have died. It is now sparsely populated and divided in religion, customs and language. For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians. In use among them are small tournois coins of which eleven are worth one Venetian grosso. They are in use at this rate in all of Romania. This city is two hundred miles from Dubrovnik. And then, taking advantage of favourable winds, we continued on to Vlora, a fortress of the Emperor of the Greeks, and to the island of Corfu on which there is a city called Corfu belonging to the aforementioned King of Jerusalem, this place being two hundred miles from Durrës.



    (1)cf. R. Elsie: Two Irish travellers in Albania, in: Albanien in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart. Internationales Symposium der Südosteuropa-Gesellschaft..., Munich 1991, p. 24-27.
    (2)Stephan Urosh III (r. 1322-1333).
    (3)Romania refers here to territories in the possession of the Byzantine Empire, in particular the Morea, and has nothing to do with modern Romania. The Prince of the Morea at the time was John, Count of Gravina (r. 1316-1335).
    (4)Robert the Good (r. 1309-1343).
    (5)The term Slavonia refers here to the Slavic territories of Dalmatia and Croatia.
    (6)The earthquake referred to Byzantine historian George Pachymeres probably occurred in July 1267.
    [Extract from: Mario Esposito (ed.): Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam, Dublin 1960, p. 36 40. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 26-27.]

    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  14. #889
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    574
    Points
    3,569
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,569, Level: 17
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 281
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    hm

    something is strange here,

    Around 1 century Simon Simeonsis writes that Albanians were the 3rd speaking group
    But he does not Say about Slavic, But to Latin Speakers,

    So if the Above is truth,
    How come 1 century After Simeonsis Finds

    primary Speaking the Latin
    Second the Greek
    and 3rd Albanian,

    So if the Serbs, Slavicised the Albanians, as it is said above.
    Then why 1 Century after we find major speaking the Latin, the Greek, the Albanian, and not Slavic
    and not the Slavic !!!!!!

    Also strange is the thing that Nemanjik Stefan was entitled by the papal authorities, not orthodox ones,
    and was not affected by Latinocracy of 4rth Crusade which destroyed East Roman empire.
    And Radoslav Stefan was almost to enter the Roman Catholic Church the era of Pope Inokentios 3rd,


    indeed the above seems to be strange comparing on what I read above.
    Wrong, Albanians are the forth speaking community after Jews in Durres....what Durres has to do with Slavs at that time?????. It is as it should be....I do not see any contradiction with Durres population at that time.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  15. #890
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ooga booga

  16. #891
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    574
    Points
    3,569
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,569, Level: 17
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 281
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Ooga booga
    ????


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  17. #892
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    24-02-19
    Location
    Bylazora
    Posts
    73
    Points
    621
    Level
    6
    Points: 621, Level: 6
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Macedonia



    Im reading this discussion and is very good , i recognize few people all the time trying to provocate but we are all different personalities someone are more with complex's some are not , anyways i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s

Page 36 of 36 FirstFirst ... 26343536

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •