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Thread: Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So the idea I'm forming of the South Slav ethno-genesis is something like as follows:

    Area was dominated by Illyrian tribes who were most likely not closely related to most of modern day South Slavs. After thousands of years of war with Romans, Celts, Greeks, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Mongols, Slavs, many diseases etc, most of the original "Illyrian" population were probably dead or absorbed several of said invader peoples into the population until it became utterly unlike the Illyrians of antiquity. That's the idea I'm forming of the fate of the Illyrians. The last remnants holding out in Albania because of its small size, mountainous geography and generally being out of the way.

    On the other side of this we have the proto-Slavs who came to the Balkans, who were dominant haplogroup I2, unlike the vast majority of northern Slavs. This means these Slavs who invaded were closely related, even before the first Proto-Slavs appeared? I mean, to maintain such a high percentage of that particular haplogroup when it's a minority in typical Russians, Poles, etc, the invading Slavs must have come from related tribes, right?

    Who could these tribes have been? Dacians? I'm curious about this because, as far as I know, the Slavic language and culture is very young compared to any other European groups (Latins, Germanics, Celts). So could the shattered remnants of the northern Dacians (hypothetically being I2a dominant) have mixed with and formed the proto-Slavic culture/peoples, before migrating south? We must have come from somewhere, or were Slavs possibly always there, ever since the first Latins appeared in Italy and Germanic people in Germany? I always assumed most east Slavs descended from Scythians and unknown Steppe tribes for example.

    I'm also curious as to why there are enough Mediterranean looking South Slavs. Some could pass as very tall looking Greeks, rather than a stereotypical image of a central/eastern European. My own father can definitely pass as Mediterranean with an olive skin stone and dark hair, I'm haplogroup I2 from that line. My mothers side is the very stereotypical "Slavic": pale, blonde, blue-eyed, northern European looking. Did these Slavs simply adapt to the sunny-hot climate of the Adriatic coast? Or do we just stereotype what the northern barbarians would have looked like too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    So the idea I'm forming of the South Slav ethno-genesis is something like as follows:

    Area was dominated by Illyrian tribes who were most likely not closely related to most of modern day South Slavs. After thousands of years of war with Romans, Celts, Greeks, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Mongols, Slavs, many diseases etc, most of the original "Illyrian" population were probably dead or absorbed several of said invader peoples into the population until it became utterly unlike the Illyrians of antiquity. That's the idea I'm forming of the fate of the Illyrians. The last remnants holding out in Albania because of its small size, mountainous geography and generally being out of the way.

    On the other side of this we have the proto-Slavs who came to the Balkans, who were dominant haplogroup I2, unlike the vast majority of northern Slavs. This means these Slavs who invaded were closely related, even before the first Proto-Slavs appeared? I mean, to maintain such a high percentage of that particular haplogroup when it's a minority in typical Russians, Poles, etc, the invading Slavs must have come from related tribes, right?

    Who could these tribes have been? Dacians? I'm curious about this because, as far as I know, the Slavic language and culture is very young compared to any other European groups (Latins, Germanics, Celts). So could the shattered remnants of the northern Dacians (hypothetically being I2a dominant) have mixed with and formed the proto-Slavic culture/peoples, before migrating south? We must have come from somewhere, or were Slavs possibly always there, ever since the first Latins appeared in Italy and Germanic people in Germany? I always assumed most east Slavs descended from Scythians and unknown Steppe tribes for example.

    I'm also curious as to why there are enough Mediterranean looking South Slavs. Some could pass as very tall looking Greeks, rather than a stereotypical image of a central/eastern European. My own father can definitely pass as Mediterranean with an olive skin stone and dark hair, I'm haplogroup I2 from that line. My mothers side is the very stereotypical "Slavic": pale, blonde, blue-eyed, northern European looking. Did these Slavs simply adapt to the sunny-hot climate of the Adriatic coast? Or do we just stereotype what the northern barbarians would have looked like too much?
    I2a-Din is not that insignificant among other Slavs, especially in the western Ukraine and Moldova close to where I'd put the earliest Slavs of the Kiev culture. It was recently discovered that the Rurikids might originally have belonged to that haplogroup. Relative haplogroup frequencies tend to shift over time without foreign influence. The Slavs were pagans and polygamy was very common, so founder effects are bound to happen.

    The Paleo-Balkanics likely weren't close to extinction. The entire southern half of Serbia has Messapic toponyms, a language that was very closely related to Albanian and a sister language of Illyrian. The inner Dinaric range has Latin place names of course, and the Romanized population in the mountains wouldnt have been affected by the decline of the cities. I think Illyrian was already a dead language by the time the Slavs arrived.

    The frequent Mediterranean look among South Slavs is of course a result of admixture. If Bosnian Croats are 50% Paleo-Balkanic that is to be expected.

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    Well I didnt mean they necessarily went extinct, just became a minority in their former homelands. How are Bosnian Croats 50% native? We're generally purest with haplogroup i2 and very few of us have haplogroups E or J

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    Well I didnt mean they necessarily went extinct, just became a minority in their former homelands. How are Bosnian Croats 50% native? We're generally purest with haplogroup i2 and very few of us have haplogroups E or J
    Because of women.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Sorry but your question is stupid. I remember perfectly a video of Deretiç when at a certain point he opens his eyes in an exaggerated way and with an idiot expression printed on his face, as if he wanted to say, look, there is something here, he asked exactly the same question. Here in Albania, these things are taught to children when they begin to study history at the age of 11-12 maybe.
    Someone here has given an answer to your question. In short, there have been barbarian invasions, wars, famine, epidemics, etc, that have caused a demographic decline in the Balkans at that time. Did not they teach you this things at school in your country?
    You are watching Deretic? Good god :)

    There is no stupid questions but only stupid answers. If someone has already answered my question as you said, what is the purpose of your answer? To insult me? Try to relax would be good for your health. This is not a war zone it is educational site.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    You are watching Deretic? Good god :)
    There is no stupid questions but only stupid answers. If someone has already answered my question as you said, what is the purpose of your answer? To insult me? Try to relax would be good for your health. This is not a war zone it is educational site.
    I explained why your question is stupid. Now it's you who have to explain why my answer is stupid, was you who used this word, probably for a moment you forgot that this is not a war zone it is educational site.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    That's not true at all!
    Ex Yugos are not a single entity, in matter of fact, they were people very different, in both, genetics and culture!
    There are worlds apart between Slovenes or Croatians to Macedonians!

    And most ex-Yugos don't have more Balkanic than NE European admixture!
    The only ones with more Balkanic admixture would be Macedonians and some Southern Serbs!

    For example, I am from the South-Eastern part of Rep. of Macedonia.
    When comparing myself with ancient samples using Eurogenes K36 data on nMonte, I get these results:

    [1] "distance%=10.4265"


    Aspar


    South-East-Euro, 40.6
    Early-Slavic, 29.7
    Crimean_Greek_KER_1, 22.3
    Levant-Egypt, 4
    Gepid_VIM_2, 3.4


    On other hand, this are results of a Serbian user on another forum:

    "distance%=10.6922"

    ....

    Early-Slavic,27.2
    South-East-Euro,25.6
    Dutch shifted Baiuvar,16.8
    Early-Baltic,16
    Crimean Greek,14.4

    These are ancient genome proxies for the calculator:
    NW-Germanic
    MA_AngloSaxon_HS1
    MA_AngloSaxon_HS2
    MA_Northumbria_NO3423
    IA_Germano-Celt_3DRIF16
    IA_Germano-Celt_6DRIF3
    3kyaBA_Sweden_RISE175
    IA_Sweden_RISE174

    NW-Celtic
    IA_BritishCelt_6DRIF23
    IA_Celtic-Briton_HI1
    IA_Celtic-Briton_HI4
    IA_Gaelic-Celt_6DRIF18
    IA_Gaulish-Celt_6DRIF22
    IA_Pictish-Brit_6DRIF21
    3kyaMBA_Germany_RISE471
    4kyaBA_Ireland_Rathlin1

    Early-Slavic
    MA_Niemcza34
    MA_Markowice7
    MA_RISE568
    MA_RISE569

    Early Medieval (MA) from Poland and Czech Republic.

    Early-Baltic:
    RISE598

    Iron-Age-LBA-Steppe
    IA_Altai_RISE492
    IA_Altai_RISE600
    IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0576
    IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0577
    IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9
    IA_ScythianPazyryk_I0563
    3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE493
    3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE497
    4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE515
    4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE516
    3kyaLBA_Baikal_RISE554
    IA_ScythianSamara_I0247
    IA_ScythianSamara_I0247b
    IA_ScythianZevakino_Ze6
    IA_Sarmatian_I0574
    IA_Sarmatian_I0575
    IA_Sarmatian_I0575b
    IA_ScythianIsmailovo_Is2
    3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE523
    3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE524
    3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE525

    Levant-Egypt:
    4kyaBA_Sidon
    IA_Egypt_JK2134
    IA_Egypt_JK2888
    IA_Egypt_JK2911
    IA_Egypt_JK2911b
    4kyaBA_Levant_I1705
    4kyaBA_Levant_I1706
    4kyaBA_Levant_I1730
    IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26
    IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b

    Ancient-Iran:
    IA_Iran_F38
    MA_Iran_I1955
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1661a
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1661b
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1662
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1665
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1665b
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1670
    6kyaCA_Iran_I1674

    Anatolia-Armenia:
    6kyaCA_MarmaraSea_I1584
    5kyaBA_Anatolia_I2499
    4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1633
    4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1635
    4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1658
    4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE413
    4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE416
    3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE397
    3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE407
    3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE412
    3kyaMBA_Armenia_I1656
    3kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE423

    South-East Euro:
    3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9006
    3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9010
    3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9033
    3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9041
    3kyaBA_CreteArmenoi_I9123

    South-West Euro:
    3kyaBA_Iberia_ATP9
    5kyaCA_Iberia_ATP2
    5kyaCA_Iberia_I1280
    5kyaCA_Iberia_I1274
    5kyaCA_Iberia_I1277
    5kyaCA_Iberia_I1281
    5kyaCA_Iberia_I1303
    5kyaLN_Portugal_Monte-Canelas1
    3kyaBA_Portugal_ERR1524174
    3kyaBA_Portugal_I0207
    3kyaBA_Portugal_MonteGato
    3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelha
    3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelhaB

    South-Central Euro:

    4kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE486
    4kyaBA_Minoan_I0070
    4kyaBA_Minoan_I0073
    5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE487
    5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE489

    Central-Euro-4kya:
    4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1
    4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1b
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE247
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE254
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE349
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE371
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE373
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE374
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE479
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE480
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE483
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE484
    3kyaLBA_Hungary_BR2
    IA_Hungary_IR1
    3kyaLBA_Germany_I0099
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE577
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586b
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047b
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0114
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0115
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0116
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0117
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164b
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803b
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE109
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE150
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154b
    4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE566
    4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE567
    4kyaBB_Germany_I0058
    4kyaBB_Germany_I0059
    4kyaBB_Germany_I0060
    4kyaBB_Germany_I0112
    4kyaBB_Germany_I0113
    4kyaBB_Germany_I0806
    4kyaBB_Germany_RISE560
    4kyaBB_Germany_RISE563
    4kyaCA_Germany_I0118
    4kyaEBA_Cuiavia_PLN17
    4kyaEBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0049
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0103
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0104
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0106
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0108
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0111
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0550

    Roman soldier from south Germany FN_2
    Crimean Greek (KER_1)
    Gepid with Central-Asian input (VIM_2)
    Dutch shifted Baiuvar (ALH_10)
    Swedish shifted Baiuvar AED_204

    As you can see, I can be modeled as 30%(Early-Slavic) NE European or 33% if we include the Gepid influence and 63%
    (SE Euro + Crimean) SE European or 67% if we include Levant-Egypt!
    While the Serb can be modeled as 43%(Early-Slavic + Early-Baltic), 40%(SE-Euro + Crimean) and 17% NW-Euro!
    But these are only 2 results.
    About Crimean admixture - I am not that sure that admixture is not having also a lot of Gothic genes.
    Gothic language was spoken in Crimea till 1600 or so.
    After, Tatars came in Crimea or so.
    Do not know the exact history of the region.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I explained why your question is stupid. Now it's you who have to explain why my answer is stupid, was you who used this word, probably for a moment you forgot that this is not a war zone it is educational site.
    I don't know and cannot imagine what was that in my question to inspire you react like this. But this kind of reactions reveal the sad truth about a bitter guy who thinks the whole world is against him and his own people. I know a lot of Serbians feeling the same. I wish you will be able in the future to change that and move on. Until then, you guys (including Serbs similar to you) can continue fighting each others as much as you like but without my involvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    But these are only 2 results.
    About Crimean admixture - I am not that sure that admixture is not having also a lot of Gothic genes.
    Gothic language was spoken in Crimea till 1600 or so.
    After, Tatars came in Crimea or so.
    Do not know the exact history of the region.
    There is nothing "Gothic" about him...
    Here is his Eurogenes K36:

    Amerindian 0,85
    Arabian 5,73
    Armenian 2,89
    Basque 0
    Central_African 0
    Central_Euro 0
    East_African 0
    East_Asian 0
    East_Balkan 3,14
    East_Central_Asian 0,55
    East_Central_Euro 3,48
    East_Med 15,27
    Eastern_Euro 0
    Fennoscandian 0,41
    French 2,43
    Iberian 5,35
    Indo-Chinese 0
    Italian 19,23
    Malayan 0
    Near_Eastern 8
    North_African 0,6
    North_Atlantic 3,22
    North_Caucasian 17,32
    North_Sea 0,57
    Northeast_African 0
    Oceanian 0,28
    Omotic 0
    Pygmy 0
    Siberian 0
    South_Asian 0
    South_Central_Asian 0
    South_Chinese 0
    Volga-Ural 2,14
    West_African 0
    West_Caucasian 8,52
    West_Med 0

    The "Northern" dna is negligible!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    There is nothing "Gothic" about him...
    Here is his Eurogenes K36:

    Amerindian 0,85
    Arabian 5,73
    Armenian 2,89
    Basque 0
    Central_African 0
    Central_Euro 0
    East_African 0
    East_Asian 0
    East_Balkan 3,14
    East_Central_Asian 0,55
    East_Central_Euro 3,48
    East_Med 15,27
    Eastern_Euro 0
    Fennoscandian 0,41
    French 2,43
    Iberian 5,35
    Indo-Chinese 0
    Italian 19,23
    Malayan 0
    Near_Eastern 8
    North_African 0,6
    North_Atlantic 3,22
    North_Caucasian 17,32
    North_Sea 0,57
    Northeast_African 0
    Oceanian 0,28
    Omotic 0
    Pygmy 0
    Siberian 0
    South_Asian 0
    South_Central_Asian 0
    South_Chinese 0
    Volga-Ural 2,14
    West_African 0
    West_Caucasian 8,52
    West_Med 0

    The "Northern" dna is negligible!
    That's similar to my score and I get told my GED my maternal line is like Cypriots and people of pre historic Levant racially Balkan/Anatolian mix. If that's his mix he's not only Balkan South European he must of ancestors from the Near East :O

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    I don't know and cannot imagine what was that in my question to inspire you react like this. But this kind of reactions reveal the sad truth about a bitter guy who thinks the whole world is against him and his own people. I know a lot of Serbians feeling the same. I wish you will be able in the future to change that and move on. Until then, you guys (including Serbs similar to you) can continue fighting each others as much as you like but without my involvement.
    You are absolutely wrong in every single word. Nothing bitter guy or the whole world against my people, etc. You know, some of your people can not make the difference between the forums in your country and an serious international forum. If you start to search, you can find plenty of examples even in this forum. Hope we will not read in the future from you about serbian empire from Atlantic to Pacific, makeridov, etc, i will apriciate if you detach yourself from that kind of bizarre theories.


    Jovan Deretić - Arrival of Slavs - Dolazak Slavena (english)


    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    "The Hagi himself visited me, so soon as he had concluded service in the church.
    He was a tall, fair, handsome man, very friendly, and much relieved to find I understood Serb. Marko, who knows but little, asked him if he understood Albanian.
    He laughed heartily, and replied, "I am an Albanian." Born of Albanian parents, he explained he had spoken Albanian only as a child. But having joined the Orthodox Church, he was now a Servian, and Servian was more familiar to him than his mother tongue."
    -1909
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    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Genetic Landscape of Slovenians: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...018.00551/full

    The first two PCs explained ∼16% of the variance with Slovenian samples grouping together with the Croatians, Hungarians and close to the Czechs.
    https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Ar...00551-g002.jpg

    The relationships between populations were also assessed by computing a pairwise Fst matrix. Analysis of the UPGMA tree based on the Fst matrix shows all Slovenian individuals clustering together with Hungarians, Czechs, Croatians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians
    Pattern of runs of homozygosity computed on the Slovenian population does not differ significantly from Hungarians, Czechs, Croatians
    Unsupervised admixture analysis of Slovenians. Results for K = 5 are showed as it represents the lowest cross-validation error. Slovenian samples show an admixture pattern similar to the neighboring populations such as Croatians and Hungarians.
    https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Ar...00551-g003.jpg
    Neopisivo

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    The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
    So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
    However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
    If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
    The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
    In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.


    So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
    So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
    However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
    If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
    The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
    In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.


    So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.
    ........................what am I even reading

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
    The ethnicity is not determined by genetics at all. However, it is related.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
    However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
    If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
    The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
    In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.

    So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.
    Imagine that someone say that Romanians are not "fully Romanians because they live in plains:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachian_Plain

    Slavs:

    Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

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    Once we have data of where the Slavs came from, we will be in position to tell all who is the most "original" Slav, and who is less. Right now we can say that Slavs in Balkans are more genetically Balkanic than East and West Slavs from up North. Otherwise they are all equal Slavs, as being a Slav is a cultural phenomenon. Could be as simple as speaking slavic language and personally identifying as Slav. It is like belonging to a religion.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    I disagree with the end statement.
    Its not a religion but an ethnic group. You dont get to decide what ethnicity you are, its your heritage, family, ancestors, closest relatives. I'm just curious why South Slavs are so dominantly part of haplogroup I2. I'm sure we were a major component of the proto Slavs yeah, I'm just curious as to who we were before that, if anyone. Like were the haplogroup I2 people a certain tribe or group of peoples before the development of Slavdom with the R1a Slavs.

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    Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrat...90%E2%80%9391)
    Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
    Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
    So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
    If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
    If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
    Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
    Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
    But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
    From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
    For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrat...90%E2%80%9391)
    Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
    Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
    So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
    If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
    If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
    Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
    Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
    But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
    From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
    For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
    Bulgarians are the most Balkanic Slavs, along with FYROM and Montenegro.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    I disagree with the end statement.
    Its not a religion but an ethnic group. You dont get to decide what ethnicity you are, its your heritage, family, ancestors, closest relatives.
    What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?



    I'm just curious why South Slavs are so dominantly part of haplogroup I2. I'm sure we were a major component of the proto Slavs yeah, I'm just curious as to who we were before that, if anyone. Like were the haplogroup I2 people a certain tribe or group of peoples before the development of Slavdom with the R1a Slavs.
    Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrat...90%E2%80%9391)
    Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
    Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
    So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
    If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
    If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
    Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
    Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
    But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
    From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
    For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
    South Slavs share a relatively young clade, called I2a1b-CTS10228, which is significantly lower among non-Slavic speakers and is elevated in areas where the Slavs arrived en masse. So it is definitely SLAVIC.

    Russians and Ukrainians have a higher number of I2a1b-CTS10228 than do South Slavs.

    In Italy, both north and south, this clade doesn't exist, so it can not be attributed to Illyrians, neither Goths.

    I'm tired of these discussions, they have gone on for years, propagated by the same people carrying these haplogroups and their lack of self-criticism. I2a1b-CTS10228 is not anymore special than any other haplogroup.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?



    Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?
    The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

    This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?


    Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?
    If one of your parents/grandparents were a Slav, then you're partially Slav. How much genetic heritage? Don't know, but the more genetic Slav you are, the closer you'll be to that heritage. If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.

    Those seem to be the dominant haplogroups associated with the proto-slavs, so yeah that's the way I see it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    If one of your parents/grandparents were a Slav, then you're partially Slav. How much genetic heritage? Don't know, but the more genetic Slav you are, the closer you'll be to that heritage. If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.
    Oh, we have partial Slavs now? I guess, there is a way to look at this, as long as we agree there are no full Slavs anymore and everybody is a partial Slav. Just more partial and less partial, as per Slav grading "system".
    Original Slavs departed from ground zero, expanded around Eastern Europe and mixed with autohtons. In Balkans with Balkanic populations in Poland, Czech and East Germany with Germanics. Some in bigger proportions some with smaller.

    If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.
    But according to your "partial Slav" grading, still a Slav, right? As long as he/she knows it?

    Those seem to be the dominant haplogroups associated with the proto-slavs, so yeah that's the way I see it.
    So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?

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