Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

I don't know and cannot imagine what was that in my question to inspire you react like this. But this kind of reactions reveal the sad truth about a bitter guy who thinks the whole world is against him and his own people. I know a lot of Serbians feeling the same. I wish you will be able in the future to change that and move on. Until then, you guys (including Serbs similar to you) can continue fighting each others as much as you like but without my involvement.
You are absolutely wrong in every single word. Nothing bitter guy or the whole world against my people, etc. You know, some of your people can not make the difference between the forums in your country and an serious international forum. If you start to search, you can find plenty of examples even in this forum. Hope we will not read in the future from you about serbian empire from Atlantic to Pacific, makeridov, etc, i will apriciate if you detach yourself from that kind of bizarre theories.

Jovan Deretić - Arrival of Slavs - Dolazak Slavena (english)


That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?
 
"The Hagi himself visited me, so soon as he had concluded service in the church.
He was a tall, fair, handsome man, very friendly, and much relieved to find I understood Serb. Marko, who knows but little, asked him if he understood Albanian.
He laughed heartily, and replied, "I am an Albanian." Born of Albanian parents, he explained he had spoken Albanian only as a child. But having joined the Orthodox Church, he was now a Servian, and Servian was more familiar to him than his mother tongue."
-1909
Edith Durham / High Albania
 
Genetic Landscape of Slovenians: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2018.00551/full

The first two PCs explained ∼16% of the variance with Slovenian samples grouping together with the Croatians, Hungarians and close to the Czechs.

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/A...09-00551-HTML/image_m/fgene-09-00551-g002.jpg

The relationships between populations were also assessed by computing a pairwise Fst matrix. Analysis of the UPGMA tree based on the Fst matrix shows all Slovenian individuals clustering together with Hungarians, Czechs, Croatians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians

Pattern of runs of homozygosity computed on the Slovenian population does not differ significantly from Hungarians, Czechs, Croatians

Unsupervised admixture analysis of Slovenians. Results for K = 5 are showed as it represents the lowest cross-validation error. Slovenian samples show an admixture pattern similar to the neighboring populations such as Croatians and Hungarians.

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/A...09-00551-HTML/image_m/fgene-09-00551-g003.jpg
 
The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.


So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.
 
The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.


So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.

........................what am I even reading
 
The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.

The ethnicity is not determined by genetics at all. However, it is related.

So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.

So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.

Imagine that someone say that Romanians are not "fully Romanians because they live in plains:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachian_Plain

Slavs:

Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs
 
Once we have data of where the Slavs came from, we will be in position to tell all who is the most "original" Slav, and who is less. Right now we can say that Slavs in Balkans are more genetically Balkanic than East and West Slavs from up North. Otherwise they are all equal Slavs, as being a Slav is a cultural phenomenon. Could be as simple as speaking slavic language and personally identifying as Slav. It is like belonging to a religion.
 
I disagree with the end statement.
Its not a religion but an ethnic group. You dont get to decide what ethnicity you are, its your heritage, family, ancestors, closest relatives. I'm just curious why South Slavs are so dominantly part of haplogroup I2. I'm sure we were a major component of the proto Slavs yeah, I'm just curious as to who we were before that, if anyone. Like were the haplogroup I2 people a certain tribe or group of peoples before the development of Slavdom with the R1a Slavs.
 
Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_Serbs#Great_Serb_Migration_(1690–91)
Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
 
Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_Serbs#Great_Serb_Migration_(1690–91)
Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
Bulgarians are the most Balkanic Slavs, along with FYROM and Montenegro.
 
I disagree with the end statement.
Its not a religion but an ethnic group. You dont get to decide what ethnicity you are, its your heritage, family, ancestors, closest relatives.
What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?



I'm just curious why South Slavs are so dominantly part of haplogroup I2. I'm sure we were a major component of the proto Slavs yeah, I'm just curious as to who we were before that, if anyone. Like were the haplogroup I2 people a certain tribe or group of peoples before the development of Slavdom with the R1a Slavs.
Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?
 
Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_Serbs#Great_Serb_Migration_(1690–91)
Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
South Slavs share a relatively young clade, called I2a1b-CTS10228, which is significantly lower among non-Slavic speakers and is elevated in areas where the Slavs arrived en masse. So it is definitely SLAVIC.

Russians and Ukrainians have a higher number of I2a1b-CTS10228 than do South Slavs.

In Italy, both north and south, this clade doesn't exist, so it can not be attributed to Illyrians, neither Goths.

I'm tired of these discussions, they have gone on for years, propagated by the same people carrying these haplogroups and their lack of self-criticism. I2a1b-CTS10228 is not anymore special than any other haplogroup.
 
What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?



Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?

The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
 
What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?


Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?

If one of your parents/grandparents were a Slav, then you're partially Slav. How much genetic heritage? Don't know, but the more genetic Slav you are, the closer you'll be to that heritage. If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.

Those seem to be the dominant haplogroups associated with the proto-slavs, so yeah that's the way I see it.
 
If one of your parents/grandparents were a Slav, then you're partially Slav. How much genetic heritage? Don't know, but the more genetic Slav you are, the closer you'll be to that heritage. If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.
Oh, we have partial Slavs now? I guess, there is a way to look at this, as long as we agree there are no full Slavs anymore and everybody is a partial Slav. Just more partial and less partial, as per Slav grading "system".
Original Slavs departed from ground zero, expanded around Eastern Europe and mixed with autohtons. In Balkans with Balkanic populations in Poland, Czech and East Germany with Germanics. Some in bigger proportions some with smaller.

If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.
But according to your "partial Slav" grading, still a Slav, right? As long as he/she knows it?

Those seem to be the dominant haplogroups associated with the proto-slavs, so yeah that's the way I see it.
So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?
 
The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.
 
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

Coon also said this:
"The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion."
Source:
Stevens Coon Carleton The Races Of Europe page 591

https://archive.org/details/racesofeurope031695mbp/page/n719
 
The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
I think you are wrong.
 
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

No, pure patrilineality was more or less exclusive to the Balkans in Europe. The pre-Roman Celts weren't strongly biased towards patrilineality at all. The richest Celtic kurgans in South-Western Germany show that maternal descent was extremely important, with the clans more often being structured around high status women.

The Croats of Bosnia were the most strongly patrilineal in historical times it seems.
 

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