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Thread: Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    (...) So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?
    So it's not clear yet!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

    This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
    The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
    Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
    So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
    The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
    See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
    "The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

    Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
    Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
    So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
    And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
    A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
    Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
    So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
    The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
    See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
    "The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

    Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
    Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
    So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
    And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
    A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.
    Coon also said this:
    "The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion."
    Source:
    Stevens Coon Carleton The Races Of Europe page 591

    https://archive.org/details/racesofe...5mbp/page/n719
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

    This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
    I think you are wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
    Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
    So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
    The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
    See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
    "The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

    Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
    Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
    So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
    And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
    A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.
    No, pure patrilineality was more or less exclusive to the Balkans in Europe. The pre-Roman Celts weren't strongly biased towards patrilineality at all. The richest Celtic kurgans in South-Western Germany show that maternal descent was extremely important, with the clans more often being structured around high status women.

    The Croats of Bosnia were the most strongly patrilineal in historical times it seems.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    mihaitzateo and LABERIA I have now white hair with ages. but I had beard and mustache in the reddish spectrum in youth and also 1.92 m tall... lool! Interesting fact.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh, we have partial Slavs now? I guess, there is a way to look at this, as long as we agree there are no full Slavs anymore and everybody is a partial Slav. Just more partial and less partial, as per Slav grading "system".
    Original Slavs departed from ground zero, expanded around Eastern Europe and mixed with autohtons. In Balkans with Balkanic populations in Poland, Czech and East Germany with Germanics. Some in bigger proportions some with smaller.

    But according to your "partial Slav" grading, still a Slav, right? As long as he/she knows it?

    So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?
    Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. You'll know your Slavic or not. Or by what your saying I guess im African or Japanese whenever I feel like it

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. You'll know your Slavic or not. Or by what your saying I guess im African or Japanese whenever I feel like it
    I think We must be proud of what we are.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWwpzYOrRI

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. You'll know your Slavic or not. Or by what your saying I guess im African or Japanese whenever I feel like it
    We did this exercise to point to you how complicated the subject is. Especially when population of Slavs is mixed genetically and of many customs, food, music and traditions. They are bound by language mostly, or maybe only these days.

    I guess im African
    Again, Africa is so diverse that if you lived in Africa now, you could call yourself African. This wouldn't conflict with being "partial" Slav, European, Christian or Jew.

    Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family.
    Well, there is not much being passed of Slavic traditions now. Not the folk music and dances, not the folk clothing, not the Slavic original pagan religion, not the Slavic food (if there is something like Slavic food). Nothing much but the language basically.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We did this exercise to point to you how complicated the subject is. Especially when population of Slavs is mixed genetically and of many customs, food, music and traditions. They are bound by language mostly, or maybe only these days.

    Again, Africa is so diverse that if you lived in Africa now, you could call yourself African. This wouldn't conflict with being "partial" Slav, European, Christian or Jew.

    Well, there is not much being passed of Slavic traditions now. Not the folk music and dances, not the folk clothing, not the Slavic original pagan religion, not the Slavic food (if there is something like Slavic food). Nothing much but the language basically.
    Cultures change over time. Whatever part of the mixed Slavs is from another. As we said, South Slavs are Slavs that mixed with balkanic folk. We arent Puerto Rican

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We did this exercise to point to you how complicated the subject is. Especially when population of Slavs is mixed genetically and of many customs, food, music and traditions. They are bound by language mostly, or maybe only these days.

    Again, Africa is so diverse that if you lived in Africa now, you could call yourself African. This wouldn't conflict with being "partial" Slav, European, Christian or Jew.

    Well, there is not much being passed of Slavic traditions now. Not the folk music and dances, not the folk clothing, not the Slavic original pagan religion, not the Slavic food (if there is something like Slavic food). Nothing much but the language basically.
    Not quite true. Some folk songs still keep a memory of pagan gods.

    Do not underestimate language as a backbone of any ethnic identity.

    In Croatian case, I can present you evidences of ethnic awareness of people throughout history, as well as a language continuity. Croats have been Slavs in 9th century as well as in 21st century.

    Nothing much but the language basically[/B].
    Genetics too, as it was already presented.
    Neopisivo

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Please note that Aromanians, which are still speaking Romanian dialects, do have I2-din, significant or lots of it.
    Or whatever, they have some kind of I2-A.
    Aromanians have the custom to marry only with Aromanians, so is safe to suppose they have not mixed with Goths and they have not mixed with Slavic migrants that started to come around 600 AD (or earlier) either.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x
    A very strange thing is that are some Aromanians that are having 42% summed clades of I (of which most should be I2-din).
    These Aromanians, which are from Albania, are also having 36.8% R1B and no R1A.
    So, clearly, not only Slavs brought I2 in Balkans.
    Whatever, these Aromanians with 42% I, would be very interesting to have their I analyzed, to see what clades are found.
    I am supposing most of it is I2-a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Please note that Aromanians, which are still speaking Romanian dialects, do have I2-din, significant or lots of it. Or whatever, they have some kind of I2-A. Aromanians have the custom to marry only with Aromanians, so is safe to suppose they have not mixed with Goths and they have not mixed with Slavic migrants that started to come around 600 AD (or earlier) either. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x A very strange thing is that are some Aromanians that are having 42% summed clades of I (of which most should be I2-din). These Aromanians, which are from Albania, are also having 36.8% R1B and no R1A. So, clearly, not only Slavs brought I2 in Balkans. Whatever, these Aromanians with 42% I, would be very interesting to have their I analyzed, to see what clades are found. I am supposing most of it is I2-a.
    Ok, then let us see how Romanian speakers “brought I2 in Balkans” and where from. Where did the Romance languages came from to Balkans in the first place?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Please note that Aromanians, which are still speaking Romanian dialects, do have I2-din, significant or lots of it.
    Or whatever, they have some kind of I2-A.
    Aromanians have the custom to marry only with Aromanians, so is safe to suppose they have not mixed with Goths and they have not mixed with Slavic migrants that started to come around 600 AD (or earlier) either.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x
    A very strange thing is that are some Aromanians that are having 42% summed clades of I (of which most should be I2-din).
    These Aromanians, which are from Albania, are also having 36.8% R1B and no R1A.
    So, clearly, not only Slavs brought I2 in Balkans.
    Whatever, these Aromanians with 42% I, would be very interesting to have their I analyzed, to see what clades are found.
    I am supposing most of it is I2-a.
    There are Aromanians with 22.4% R1a.

    Their I2a1b-CTS10228 was brought by Slavs mixing with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
    Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
    So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
    The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
    See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
    "The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

    Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
    Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
    So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
    And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
    A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.
    Are you aware that Montenegro is the size of a middle sized village in China?
    Are you aware that 40% of Montenegrin population is ethnic Serbs? Are you aware that the rest 20% of that so called country are Albanians and Bosnia's?
    Are you aware that when you speak about Montenegrin's you are speaking about Slavisized Albanians sometimes mixed with Serbs through marriages?
    Are you aware that those who call themselves Montenegrin's do not exceed 200 000 people?
    Are you aware of recent president Trump interview that those people are very aggressive and could start WWW3?
    Are you aware when you speak about Montenegro you are wasting your time.?
    Don't you think that there is not such a think as Montenegrin ethnicity?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup I was widespread in the Balkans and Europe before the Neolithic. It is found in human remains from over 32,000 years ago (Paglicci Cave). I2a1 was here in Balkans all the time for over 10000 years ago.
    I think any haplogroups can grow from 1% to almost 100%, or from almost 100% to extinction in only 15-25 generations (a few centuries) for biological reasons, such as a slightly higher number of male offspring in case of some new subclade of its like I2a-din, to the detriment of others haplogroups or subclades. And for this... no one ask it if wants to be called Slavic, Latin, Greek, or otherwise!
    Last edited by gidai; 24-11-18 at 23:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Are you aware that Montenegro is the size of a middle sized village in China? Are you aware that 40% of Montenegrin population is ethnic Serbs? Are you aware that the rest 20% of that so called country are Albanians and Bosnia's? Are you aware that when you speak about Montenegrin's you are speaking about Slavisized Albanians sometimes mixed with Serbs through marriages? Are you aware that those who call themselves Montenegrin's do not exceed 200 000 people? Are you aware of recent president Trump interview that those people are very aggressive and could start WWW3? Are you aware when you speak about Montenegro you are wasting your time.? Don't you think that there is not such a think as Montenegrin ethnicity?
    Obviously, there is a modern nation called Montenegrins and we should respect that. Their "Serb" identity is related to the fact that they are officially still under a jurisdiction of Serb Orthodox Church. In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction was very often misinterpreted as ethnicity. Before and during 19th century, in Montenegro and Dalmatia, the term "Serb" (as well as Greek!) meant an Orthodox believer and nothing else.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction was very often misinterpreted as ethnicity.
    In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction very often incorporated several different ethnicities.

    This might have been misinterpreted by the outside world of course.

    Both laity and clergy were well aware who was who and how they identified.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction very often incorporated several different ethnicities. This might have been misinterpreted by the outside world of course.
    Yes. Even some western historians still don’t get that.
    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Both laity and clergy were well aware who was who and how they identified.
    In the past, yes. However, during the period of national awakening in the 19th century a power of religion was often used as a tool for homogenization of populations around national ideas.

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    riginally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut
    Are you aware that Montenegro is the size of a middle sized village in China? Are you aware that 40% of Montenegrin population is ethnic Serbs? Are you aware that the rest 20% of that so called country are Albanians and Bosnia's? Are you aware that when you speak about Montenegrin's you are speaking about Slavisized Albanians sometimes mixed with Serbs through marriages? Are you aware that those who call themselves Montenegrin's do not exceed 200 000 people? Are you aware of recent president Trump interview that those people are very aggressive and could start WWW3? Are you aware when you speak about Montenegro you are wasting your time.? Don't you think that there is not such a think as Montenegrin ethnicity?
    First we must start from beginning, for now historical data and genetics clearly show that to the Balkans only come Croatians, that is if we follow I2a subclades.
    For R1a subclades I'm not sure yet because there is not much data, but subclades that Croats have exist in southern Poland ie. White Croatia.

    Historical record of Croatians in Montenegro, Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos 10th century (Croats in Illyria and Roman Dalmatia), 12th century Chronicle of the Priest of Dioclea,
    Red Croatia (Latin: Croatia Rubea, Croatian: Crvena Hrvatska) is a historical term used for the southeastern parts of Roman Dalmatia and some other territories, including parts of present-day Montenegro, Albania
    Muhamed el Idrisi, (Ceuta, 1099Palermo, 1164) Dubrovnik last city in Croatia, Ivan Skilica (Ivan Skilices) (grč. Ιωάννης Σκυλίτζης) 11th century,
    "The Bulgarian rulers asked Mihajlo, ruler of those who are called Croats, who ruled from Kotor(Montenegro)
    Michael, Michael in Cyrillic, the original king in the Montenegrin history, chief Duklean state of Vojislavljević dynasty from 1046. to 1081.
    1526. Turkish Census of Bosnian Army, Croats in Nikšić (central Montenegro) and Sandžak north border of Montenegro, Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi mentione Croats in central Montenegro and on the coast of Montenegro, there is also Croatian ethnonyms in that area.

    There is very little direct information about Serbs in Montenegro, but genetics has spoken, Serbs to Roman Dalmatia comes from Greece, nobody in Montenegro or Croatia with I2a and R1a types comes from Greece at least not in the 7th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Yes. Even some western historians still don’t get that. In the past, yes. However, during the period of national awakening in the 19th century a power of religion was often used as a tool for homogenization populations around national ideas.
    Assimilation of populations, is the right word in my opinion. There was a war between Orthodox Churches in Balcans, trying to steal the belivers to each other.

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    Well, the flock was pretty determined too to take sides in the conflicts during the Ottoman rule...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Assimilation of populations, is the right word in my opinion. There was a war between Orthodox Churches in Balcans, trying to steal the belivers to each other.
    Some did also shopping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Some did also shopping.
    They continue even today, 300 euro of monthly pension, this is the price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    They continue even today, 300 euro of monthly pension, this is the price.
    Nadležnost nad pravoslavnim vernicima Makedonije je stečena isplatom Carigradskoj patrijaršiji[3], te zabranom Bugarske crkve.[4]
    Translated: "The jurisdiction over the Orthodox believers of North Macedonia [by Serbian Church] was gained by paying an amount to Patriarchate of Constantinople, and banning of the Bulgarian Church". (https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpska_pravoslavna_crkva). The population was called "South Serbians" ever since.

    Now we can continue with genetics...

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