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Thread: Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

  1. #101
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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    well according to Dibran;
    "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "
    Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.
    *I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
    he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
    but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
    The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
    .
    this link below only study J2b
    read what they say about that marker
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
    but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
    The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
    .
    this link below only study J2b
    read what they say about that marker
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
    IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt

    The Romans, aside from committing atrocities[39] during the war, split up Illyrian tribes into different groups from the ones they had previously composed. (...) Other members of tribes were probably sold as slaves.[41] or deported to different locations, such as the Azali.[42]
    Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.
    Neopisivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Not quite true. Some folk songs still keep a memory of pagan gods.

    Do not underestimate language as a backbone of any ethnic identity.

    In Croatian case, I can present you evidences of ethnic awareness of people throughout history, as well as a language continuity. Croats have been Slavs in 9th century as well as in 21st century.



    Genetics too, as it was already presented.
    Slovenia has a mountain called Triglav, similar to the Slavic pagan gods worshipped in Poland. Croatia has a memorial plaque of Perun that was carved in the dark ages. And like Wonomyro said, language isn't nothing it's huge. I can understand maybe 1/5th of what my Russian friends are saying, to the point where we make it a game sometimes. My Ukranian friend actually told me how her grandparents told her how they were taught that the old Croats lived in the mountains to the west of their town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt



    Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.
    Well the slaves were torn apart from their families and sold all across the Empire. I2 exists in small minority groups in almost every European country. We also don't know the populations of these tribes. If I recall correctly, many were sent to Dacia, which has a large spike of I2. Not saying it is Illyrian, just saying it seems possible.

    And yeah a lot of Roman soldiers were Illyrian, but in comparison to the rest of the ethnic groups of the empire the Illyrians must have been a tiny minority, doubtful to make massive genetic impacts all over the place. And generally I think they were mostly concentrated around the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    Well the slaves were torn apart from their families and sold all across the Empire. I2 exists in small minority groups in almost every European country. We also don't know the populations of these tribes. If I recall correctly, many were sent to Dacia, which has a large spike of I2. Not saying it is Illyrian, just saying it seems possible. And yeah a lot of Roman soldiers were Illyrian, but in comparison to the rest of the ethnic groups of the empire the Illyrians must have been a tiny minority, doubtful to make massive genetic impacts all over the place. And generally I think they were mostly concentrated around the Balkans.
    I hope that you noticed that here we mentioned a specific subclade of I2 which is I2a1b-CTS10228. It is virtually absent in the territories of former Roman Empire which were never exposed to Slavic migrations.

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    As I wrote above, a very good method to get some ideas about I2-din from Montenegro,Serbia,Bosnia, Croatia and even FYROM will be something like this:
    Make genetic testing in non-large cities, of the people there.
    Who is I2 or I1 or I, should have the family name analyzed.
    The family name in most cases tells the ethnic origins of a person. Sure, on paternal line.
    On maternal line, is a lot more complicated.
    In England, they know that are names of Norman origin (Normans spoke Old French), names of Scandinavian origin (of the people speaking Old Norse) etc.
    I am thinking that even in Croatia, which seems most Slavic, from ex-Yugo nations, not even 60% of the paternal lines are of Slavic origins.
    Regarding this thread, if someone from ex-Yugo nations is having their paternal ancestors from Celts or from Goths, how should we consider that person?
    For Goths, rather Slavic?
    For Celts, rather Balkanic, or we should not take that person into account?
    Is clear that Thracians, Dacians and Greeks are included in the Balkanic people.

    Let us take an example,most frequent family name in Croatia is Horvat.
    Horvat is clearly a person which has Slavic paternal ancestors.

    For Serbia, persons with the family name "Vucic" are most likely Slavizied Dacians.
    Vuc - wolf.
    Dacians - wolf people.
    In Croatia, the people that are having paternal line from Dacians, have the name Vukovic.


    Let us take Croatia, why only some people of Croatia have the family name "Horvat" meaning, Croat?
    Do you think that the people with the family Knežević are of Slavic origins?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Wolves were as relevant to Slavs as to Dacians or anyone that had to deal with them. Surnames are irrelevant (mostly). I'm a history buff and this is the first time I've heard of Dacians being "wolf people". Tribal people all feared wolves because they depended on live stock. Some groups had more special roles for them like the norse (Fenrir) or even Latins (Remus and Romulus). Doesnt mean the Vucic line is Norse or Latin

    My Croatian is rusty sadly but Knezevic may come from Knez. The serbo-croatian word for a prince/lord/duke. In Russian i believe its Knjaz or something along those lines. Very similar.

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    History, languages, cultures, religions, countries, empires... I think are all complicated human inventions.
    Here's what I found about the frequency of specific Balkans category genes found in different countries around the world. ...
    https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicitie...e-distribution
    Great spread, isn't it? Even japanese or Thai people have over 7% and 11% Balkans.

    Serbia 95.9%
    Croaţia 89.4%
    Slovenia 87.1%
    România 86.1%
    Bulgaria 81.3%
    Slovacia 78.6%
    Ungaria 74.1%
    Republica Cehă 67.2%
    Ucraina 65.9%
    Belarus 56.6%
    Austria 54.8%
    Polonia 47.6%
    Rusia 43.4%
    Kazahstan 41.1%
    Germania 30.6%
    Lituania 30.2%
    Grecia 29.2%
    Letonia 23.7%
    Elveţia 21.6%
    Turcia 20%
    Estonia 19.8%
    Luxemburg 18.5%
    Italia 13.1%
    Canada 12.6%
    Panama 12.5%
    Thailanda 11.4%
    Brazilia 11.1%
    Cipru 10.7%
    Franţa 10.6%
    Statele Unite ale Americii 10.4%
    Belgia 9.9%
    Chile 8.6%
    Malta 8.2%
    Islanda 7.9%
    Argentina 7.8%
    Australia 7.6%
    Emiratele Arabe Unite 7.6%
    Japonia 7.1%
    Suedia 6.7%
    Portugalia 6.5%
    Africa de Sud 6.3%
    Spania 5.9%
    Singapore 5.4%
    Danemarca 5.4%
    Marea Britanie 5.3%
    Olanda 5.1%
    Israel 5.1%
    Irlanda 4.6%
    Peru 4.3%
    Mexic 4.1%
    Noua Zeelandă 4%
    Norvegia 3.9%
    Columbia 3.5%
    Hong Kong 3.2%
    Puerto Rico 2.9%
    Costa Rica 2.9%
    Bahrain 2.6%
    Finlanda 2.5%
    China 2.5%
    Arabia Saudită 2.4%
    Bermuda 2.4%
    Malaysia 2.1%
    Filipine 1.4%
    India 0.7%

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    History, languages, cultures, religions, countries, empires... I think are all complicated human inventions. Here's what I found about the frequency of specific Balkans category genes found in different countries around the world. ... https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicitie...e-distribution Great spread, isn't it? Even japanese or Thai people have over 7% and 11% Balkans. Serbia 95.9% Croaţia 89.4% Slovenia 87.1% România 86.1% Bulgaria 81.3% Slovacia 78.6% Ungaria 74.1% Republica Cehă 67.2% Ucraina 65.9% Belarus 56.6% Austria 54.8% Polonia 47.6%
    Hilarious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Hilarious
    What? Also 90% of Croatian people have Balkanic ethnicity!...

    It is true that all passing through here have spread all over and even through Russia. No category of "slav" to see how many percent it has in the Balkans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    What? Also 90% of Croatian people have Balkanic ethnicity!...
    That would be even more hilarious... I mean, ETHNICITY?..

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    Wolves were as relevant to Slavs as to Dacians or anyone that had to deal with them. Surnames are irrelevant (mostly). I'm a history buff and this is the first time I've heard of Dacians being "wolf people". Tribal people all feared wolves because they depended on live stock. Some groups had more special roles for them like the norse (Fenrir) or even Latins (Remus and Romulus). Doesnt mean the Vucic line is Norse or Latin

    My Croatian is rusty sadly but Knezevic may come from Knez. The serbo-croatian word for a prince/lord/duke. In Russian i believe its Knjaz or something along those lines. Very similar.
    Well, Knezevic should be from Croatia high ranked boyars I am supposing.
    Which should be mostly Slavs ruling class.
    Would be really interesting to see the Y DNA of the people called Knezevic.
    I am supposing they are over 90% some R1A-M458 branches.
    But that is my supposition.
    As for people called Horvat, I am guessing they miss E and J paternal lines.
    I would be really curious to see what paternal lines are bearing the males with family names Horvat.
    I understand Horvat is also found in Slovakia and Hungary, which shows that Croatian Slavs migrated from current Poland lands.
    Now,it is told on another thread that some I2-din branches are also found in Poland.
    I am not sure if Serbians came from Poland lands,also,but I suppose that Serbs also came from current Poland lands.


    As for wolves, Fenrir was a very negative creature for Scandinavians.
    While Romulus and Remus were raised by a female wolf.
    So Dacians actually had the wolf as a very good creature.

    Would be really interesting for the start to see what Y DNA the people called Knezevic and the people called Horvat.
    And would be even more interesting if the people from Hungary and Slovakia having as family name Horvat would be also tested for Y DNA.
    Maybe in this way it would be very easy to find how Croats migrated from Poland, in current lands of Slovakia after, in current lands of Hungary and after, they moved into the current lands of Croatia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    Wolves were as relevant to Slavs as to Dacians or anyone that had to deal with them. Surnames are irrelevant (mostly). I'm a history buff and this is the first time I've heard of Dacians being "wolf people". Tribal people all feared wolves because they depended on live stock. Some groups had more special roles for them like the norse (Fenrir) or even Latins (Remus and Romulus). Doesnt mean the Vucic line is Norse or Latin

    My Croatian is rusty sadly but Knezevic may come from Knez. The serbo-croatian word for a prince/lord/duke. In Russian i believe its Knjaz or something along those lines. Very similar.
    Most likely from or related to germanic or german form of kunig, kneg, knecht. I don't think original slavic words start with "kn".
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt



    Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.
    While at the same time. Illyrian haplogroups R1b-L23, J2b2-L283 and EV13 can be found in both Italy and Romania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
    but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
    The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
    .
    this link below only study J2b
    read what they say about that marker
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
    You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.

    J2b2 is among the best candidates for Illyrian, along with R1b-L23 and EV13.

    There is decent amount of J2b2 in Italy, while I2a1b-CTS10228 is 0% there.

    If I was sperging like you always are, I would claim J2b2 was brought to India by Alexander The Great's Illyrian soldiers:


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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.
    J2b2 is among the best candidates for Illyrian, along with R1b-L23 and EV13.
    There is decent amount of J2b2 in Italy, while I2a1b-CTS10228 is 0% there.
    If I was sperging like you always are, I would claim J2b2 was brought to India by Alexander The Great's Illyrian soldiers:
    There where no illyrians in Alexander's armies, he and his father fought long wars to keep the illyrians at bay
    there where Macedonians, Thessalian, Agrianians, all Greeks states except Spartans, Thracians, Paeonians, Epirotes, Psiloi and cretan archers
    I think you need to control your temper greek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.
    rofl oh the irony

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Most likely from or related to germanic or german form of kunig, kneg, knecht. I don't think original slavic words start with "kn".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knyaz
    Yes, it seems this word comes from protoGermanic.
    Anyway, it would be really interesting to have Y DNA tested the males from Croatia, that are bearing the name Knezevic.
    I have supposed that because is Croatia and Croats gave the kings and ruling class in Croatia, these people should be clearly Slavs.
    Because I doubt that the Slavs that settled in Croatia had some kind of Germanic rulers, as it was the case with the East Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knyaz
    Yes, it seems this word comes from protoGermanic.
    Anyway, it would be really interesting to have Y DNA tested the males from Croatia, that are bearing the name Knezevic.
    I have supposed that because is Croatia and Croats gave the kings and ruling class in Croatia, these people should be clearly Slavs.
    Because I doubt that the Slavs that settled in Croatia had some kind of Germanic rulers, as it was the case with the East Slavs.
    That is a Slavic word. Slavs originated in Asia before moving to Europe. They were bordering East Asians for long time. According to linguists Knez is Slavic version of Kinez (Chinese). Since the Chinese were kept in high regard because of their advanced civilization, Slavs adopted this word as an egalitarian word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    First we must start from beginning, for now historical data and genetics clearly show that to the Balkans only come Croatians, that is if we follow I2a subclades.
    For R1a subclades I'm not sure yet because there is not much data, but subclades that Croats have exist in southern Poland ie. White Croatia.

    Historical record of Croatians in Montenegro, Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos 10th century (Croats in Illyria and Roman Dalmatia), 12th century Chronicle of the Priest of Dioclea, Muhamed el Idrisi, (Ceuta, 1099Palermo, 1164) Dubrovnik last city in Croatia, Ivan Skilica (Ivan Skilices) (grč. Ιωάννης Σκυλίτζης) 11th century, 1526. Turkish Census of Bosnian Army, Croats in Nikšić (central Montenegro) and Sandžak north border of Montenegro, Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi mentione Croats in central Montenegro and on the coast of Montenegro, there is also Croatian ethnonyms in that area.

    There is very little direct information about Serbs in Montenegro, but genetics has spoken, Serbs to Roman Dalmatia comes from Greece, nobody in Montenegro or Croatia with I2a and R1a types comes from Greece at least not in the 7th century.
    I am amazed (i believe together with a lot of ppl here) about your persistence of repeating the same quotes over and over again... It is really amusing...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There's lot of fun (with etimologies) here recently.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There where no illyrians in Alexander's armies, he and his father fought long wars to keep the illyrians at bay
    there where Macedonians, Thessalian, Agrianians, all Greeks states except Spartans, Thracians, Paeonians, Epirotes, Psiloi and cretan archers
    I think you need to control your temper greek
    When he entered Asia, the young king brought with him 12,000 phalangists - 9,000 pezhetairoi and 3,000 hypaspists. He also brought with him over 7,000 Greek infantry, most of which would be used to maintain conquered lands as garrison troops. While the army that crossed the Hellespont in 334 BCE was mostly Macedonian, there were others from all over Greece: Agrianians, Triballians, Paeonians, and Illyrians. Since Alexander was also the head of the Legion of Corinth, a number of Greek states provided additional infantry, cavalry and warships.


    After 7 years of t-rolling, with 5000 posts, you are still misinformed and full of agendas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    While at the same time. Illyrian haplogroups R1b-L23, J2b2-L283 and EV13 can be found in both Italy and Romania.
    E3b is more Neolithic than Megalithic Illyrian E3b would be found in the more Alpine Mediterranean of the Balkans like South Albania all parts of Greece Crete South Italy and Cyprus E3b peaks in Albania and Montenegro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    When he entered Asia, the young king brought with him 12,000 phalangists - 9,000 pezhetairoi and 3,000 hypaspists. He also brought with him over 7,000 Greek infantry, most of which would be used to maintain conquered lands as garrison troops. While the army that crossed the Hellespont in 334 BCE was mostly Macedonian, there were others from all over Greece: Agrianians, Triballians, Paeonians, and Illyrians. Since Alexander was also the head of the Legion of Corinth, a number of Greek states provided additional infantry, cavalry and warships.


    After 7 years of t-rolling, with 5000 posts, you are still misinformed and full of agendas.
    Illyrians are Roman not Greek Central Italians are originally Roman Illyrian Roman Elite was Thracian not just Illyrian.

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    Sile is Bachus? What happened to Bachus I miss him

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