Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[hrvat22]

Crya

Is it that there is no Serbo-Croatian language but only Croatian that you wanted to say? Can you speak loudly without twisting so we all can understand it?

If to Roman Dalmatia Croats originally came wich language they brought, Turkish?

Although the language has nothing to do with the origin of anyone original Croats then bring their own Slavic, Croatian language.

 

[markod]

I base my genetic arguments for I2a and R1a subclades which make most of Croatian genetics.

First texts are from those people who are came from White Croatia to Dalmatia. However, letter, language etc has nothing to do with the origin of anyone. This is evident in the example that Croats do not speak Polish even they come from the Poland.

You haven't provided evidence for that at all. Make an unbiased comparison of Serbian & Croatian subclades and show us.

Are you saying that Croats came to the Balkans and adopted the Serbian language while retaining their ethnonym?

 

[hrvat22]

You haven't provided evidence for that at all. Make an unbiased comparison of Serbian & Croatian subclades and show us.

Are you saying that Croats came to the Balkans and adopted the Serbian language while retaining their ethnonym?

How can i say that "Croats came to the Balkans and adopted the Serbian language" when only Croats come to Roman Dalmata, the Serbs come to Greece, do you follow what I'm saying?

Serbs come from Greece to Roman Dalmatia, no one in Croatia or Serbia has such mutation in the y haplotype. Do you follow what I'm saying?

https://www.google.hr/search?q=whit....1.69i57j0.10394j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Denis Jevgenjevic Alimov, 38-year-old associate professor of Slavic and Balkan universities in St. Petersburg, author of the recently published an intriguing book "Croat Etnogenesis"-......Question.. Can it be said that Croats and Serbs in those ancient times were one tribe, that they arrived together in these lands?........Answer...With great certainty we can argue that even in those ancient times Croats and Serbs were not one tribe. They are bordered with each other, permeated for centuries, but there is no evidence that they ever were a common tribe or clan.

I'm telling you and that language has nothing to do with the origin of anybody, do you hear it?

 

[Crya]

If to Roman Dalmatia Croats originally came wich language they brought, Turkish?

Although the language has nothing to do with the origin of anyone original Croats then bring their own Slavic, Croatian language.

So which language Serbs brought to Roman Dalmatia, Turkish? Or according to you Serbs never came to Roman Dalmatia, instead we are confused Croats with identity crises that have suddenly decided to change name to Serbs, is this a conclusion you are leading to?

What markod has stated is that our languages are almost identical because we were neighboring each others before arrival hence we were probably having similar genetics but we were two different tribes. This is supported by DIA. I am not sure why are you trying so hard to highlight differences among us, are you ashamed of possibility of having the same ancestors?

 

[markod]

How can i say that "Croats came to the Balkans and adopted the Serbian language" when only Croats come to Roman Dalmata, the Serbs come to Greece, do you follow what I'm saying?

Serbs come from Greece to Roman Dalmatia, no one in Croatia or Serbia has such mutation in the y haplotype. Do you follow what I'm saying?

https://www.google.hr/search?q=whit....1.69i57j0.10394j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8





I'm telling you and that language has nothing to do with the origin of anybody, do you hear it?

Not really. Croats today speak a South Slavic language closely related to Eastern South Slavic on the one hand (Bulgarian, Macedonian) and Slovenian on the other. If the Croats came from southern Poland I find it unlikely that they'd have spoken a South Slavic language. If you are right about their origin, that would necessarily mean they got their language from someone else.

 

[hrvat22]

Crya

So which language Serbs brought to Roman Dalmatia, Turkish? Or according to you Serbs never came to Roman Dalmatia,

You have historical records that speak about Serbian arrival to Balkans and you have genetics. Prove that migration.

instead we are confused Croats with identity crises that have suddenly decided to change name to Serbs

Why original Croats should not divide and become Serbs, Bosniaks, Montenegrins etc. or vice versa? Is that forbidden? I'm talking about original White Croatian tribe. You have genetics and refute this.

What markod has stated is that our languages are almost identical because we were neighboring each others before arrival hence we were probably having similar genetics but we were two different tribes.

First, language has nothing to do with origin of anyone, second, we are still neighbors from where we come from to Roman Dalmtia and still Serbians come from Greece, there is no genetic confirmation for that migration, for that reason original I2a migrants to Roman Dalmatia are White Croats.

This is supported by DIA.

According to DAI Serbs are neighbors of White Croats and they are from

in a region called by them Boïki

, they coming later then Croats, name Serb received in Greece and from there they migrate to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia. You have genetics and freely prove this migration path.

are you ashamed of possibility of having the same ancestors?

Why would I be embarrassed, I am from Croatia and I speak about Croatian migration to Roman Dalmatia. Is that so strange?

 

[td120]

At the time of first Slavic raids and settlements on the Balkans all Slavic tribes spoke the same language...differences were still negligible. So the Croats and Serbs spoke the language of the Slavic tribes that settled in Epirus or Thrace or Moesia or anywhere else...

 

[hrvat22]

markod

Not really. Croats today speak a South Slavic language closely related to Eastern South Slavic on the one hand (Bulgarian, Macedonian) and Slovenian on the other. If the Croats came from southern Poland I find it unlikely that they'd have spoken a South Slavic language.

Language has nothing to do with the origin of anybody, on this forum you have and linguistic topics, there you find someone with an interest in linguistic. I'm talking about genetic origin of some population which has nothing to do with linguistics.

If you are right about their origin, that would necessarily mean they got their language from someone else.

I'm talking about original origin and genetics of some population, I'm not talking about language that has nothing to do with origin of some population. I do not know from who Hungarians received Finno-Ugric language but I know that originaly most of them have Slavic origin.

 

[hrvat22]

At the time of first Slavic raids and settlements on the Balkans all Slavic tribes spoke the same language..

Very likely that this is true, anyway it is topic for linguistic part of this forum.

 

[don_joe]

The languages change. Today's South Slavic languages are far away from 6th to 8th century language(s). I suppose different Germanic tribes of the same period spoke similar languages or mutually intelligable ones too. Today we have a language continuum in the Balkans as a natural result of being neighbours to each other. Same as the continuum in Germany from High German dialects to Low German dialects. The same analogy, different regions populated with different tribes, people of each region understands the language of the neighbouring ones. From Austria and Switzerland to Holland in the North.

That's the case too from Slovenia to Bulgaria. We can't make any conclusions based on this actual linguistical situation.

 

[Wonomyro]

When it comes to Serbian history I am also looking forward to learn more about it since Serbian history in our books is starting with Nemanjic dynasty only, due to the fact that there are no many written sources for early Serbian history. So when you read or hear something about our history before Nemanjic dynasty, note that these are usually guesses so don't take it for granted. There are not much in a books related to arrival of the original Serbs except copy/paste from DIA. The same is with Croatians only they have found a link with genetics and it makes it easier to follow up and assess. If you wanna find out something more about Serbian history I can advise you to read Tibor Zivkovic who is very careful in his claims. Sadly he died young in 2013 so we are left confined to new knowledge.

IMO, that is correct. First Nemanjic (his brother actually - Sava) was a founder of Serbian (Orthodox) Church. What was called "Serb", in the century to follow, was more or less a believer of the Serbian Church. The Serbian medieval culture was strongly associated with the Church. However, a Serb ethnonym appears earlier then that, but it is not clear what exactly it represented, was it a tribal, ethnic or a regional name. It is not even clear whether these early Serbs were Slavs or locals.

 

[Wonomyro]

The languages change. Today's South Slavic languages are far away from 6th to 8th century language(s). I suppose different Germanic tribes of the same period spoke similar languages or mutually intelligable ones too. Today we have a language continuum in the Balkans as a natural result of being neighbours to each other. Same as the continuum in Germany from High German dialects to Low German dialects. The same analogy, different regions populated with different tribes, people of each region understands the language of the neighbouring ones. From Austria and Switzerland to Holland in the North.

That's the case too from Slovenia to Bulgaria. We can't make any conclusions based on this actual linguistical situation.

Exactly, and that proves that the most of the differences arose in situ, not before the migrations.

 

[Wonomyro]

Did it occur to you that Constantine VII might have been clueless? Serbs & Croats speak the same language, so everyone who claims that they have disparate origins has to come up with a solid explanation as for why this is the case. I didn't understand your explanation at all for one.

Croats and Serbs didn't speak same language before 19th century. Croatian and Serbian never branched from unique "Serbo-Croatian" because the latter never existed in reality.

Modern Serbian can only be a doughter language of Croatian. If you think that I am not right, please give us a "solid explanation" in a form of a reiew of a historical development of "Serbo-Croatian literature".

 

[Gabriele Pashaj]

Croats and Serbs didn't speak same language before 19th century. Croatian and Serbian never branched from unique "Serbo-Croatian" because the latter never existed in reality.

Modern Serbian can only be a doughter language of Croatian. If you think that I am not right, please give us a "solid explanation" in a form of historical development of "Serbo-Croatian literature".

I have never known that Serbian was a language that stemmed from Croatian

 

[Wonomyro]

Most of the oldest Serbo-Croatian texts were found around Dalmatia, so I assume they brought Serbo-Croatian.

You cannot base your genetic arguments on a few minor haplotypes. The paternal profiles of Croats and Serbs are roughly identical.

Please name these "Serbo-Croatian" texts which are "found around Dalmatia".

 

[Wonomyro]

I have never known that Serbian was a language that stemmed from Croatian

Modern Serbian. Not old Serbian.

 

[don_joe]

As far as I understand this matter, Serbo-Croatian is a modern construct. None of these languages stem from another. There was a language or a group of very related dialects after the migration of Slavic speaking tribes or peoples to the Balkans. Contemporary speakers of Serbian or Croatian would probably not understand very much of it now. Both Serbian and Croatian as well as the others have roots in it. The dynamic over the centuries brought them further and closer to each other. To monopolise this proto-South-Slavic in terms of today's national languages would be a mistake.

Serbo-Croatian is a construct of modern variants and an artificial attempt to unify the South Slavs through a linguistical approach. These languages and all their dialects are related anyway, more or less. But this is only the linguistical side of the story. And we know now that languages do not correlate necessary with the origin of the peoples. So discussions about the language will not explain origins, especially not some wild theories.

Genetically, there are also no hard borders. It's the same ingredients mixed just a bit differently. It has to be enough Slavic speaking invaders to be able to oppose their language to this extent in the region. They probably came already pretty mixed genetically and they didn't come to an empty territory. Which contemporary nation caught which part of the ingredients, it varies a bit but we're all autosomally cousins to some extent. South Slavs caught the pre-Slavic Balkan component. Northern Slavs caught some finnic component, West Slavs caught Germanic component, etc. We in the south ate from the same soup. There's no racial purity or isolation. Even Albanians are a sort of our cousins and they mixed less, respectively, they kept their old language under circumstances. Hey, I am a Croat with an E-V13, there are 10% of those in Croatia. The percentage in Serbia goes even higher, in Montenegro more than that. And that is only the Y HG. Autosomally...just look at the chart.

 

[Wonomyro]

There was no other Srbian language than that before 19th century:

At the beginning of the 18th century, the principal literary language of the Serbs was Church Slavonic of the Serbian recension or Serbo-Slavonic, with centuries-old tradition.[1] By the mid-18th century, it had been mostly replaced with Russo-Slavonic (Church Slavonic of the Russian recension) among the Serbs in the Habsburg Empire.[2][3] A linguistic blend of Russo-Slavonic, vernacular Serbian, and Russian—called Slavonic-Serbian— became the dominant language of Serbian secular publications during the 1780s and 1790s. A German–Slavonic-Serbian dictionary was composed in the 1730s in Karlovci, with around 1,100 headwords.[4] The last notable work in Slavonic-Serbian was published in 1825.[5]

Between 1779 and 1785, there was an intensive campaign in the Habsburg Empire to eliminate the Cyrillic script and the Church Slavonic language from Serbian schools and secular publications. The Cyrillic script was to be replaced with the Latin alphabet, and the "Illyrian" language that was used in Croatian schools was to replace Church Slavonic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Serbian_dictionary_(1791)

When Serbs finally accepted the language "that was used in Croatian schools" the latter was no longer called "Illyrian" but got a new politically correct, but equally ridiculous name "Serbo-Croatian". However, Serbs didn't care about the political corretness and started to call their "new" language (only slightly localized) - Serbian, strightaway.

 

[Crya]

You have historical records that speak about Serbian arrival to Balkans and you have genetics. Prove that migration.

Give time to a since don't be inpatient.

First, language has nothing to do with origin of anyone, second, we are still neighbors from where we come from to Roman Dalmtia and still Serbians come from Greece, there is no genetic confirmation for that migration, for that reason original I2a migrants to Roman Dalmatia are White Croats.

Who are you to decide what it has or has not to do with the origin of anyone? In order to determine origin of people scientists are using multidisciplinary approach, among the all others linguistics as well.

According to DAI Serbs are neighbors of White Croats and they are from , they coming later then Croats, name Serb received in Greece and from there they migrate to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia. You have genetics and freely prove this migration path.

This is only in your imagination I don't buy that Croatian propaganda. Toponym with the root Serb is presented in all the Slavic countries. Go google it.

 

[Lenab]

Did it occur to you that Constantine VII might have been clueless? Serbs & Croats speak the same language, so everyone who claims that they have disparate origins has to come up with a solid explanation as for why this is the case. I didn't understand your explanation at all for one.

Mark Serbian speak with Cyrillic alphabets and Slavic languages Croats and Bosnians do also but their suffix on words are different.

Croats speak in Latin Slavic languages