Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[markod]

I showed you an ISO codes for Croatian language. What do dialect have to do with language standardisations?



Don't be unpolite. Are you blaming ISO for a strong political bias?



What do you mean? There is only one standard Croatian language.

For our purposes (i. e. reconstructing the migration of the ancestors of the South Slavs) we are interested in languages considered as linguistic constructs and not as political entities. The standard language of Croatia is based on Štokavian, a dialect which is spoken by the majority of Serbs. Torlakian is closer to Štokavian than are either Kajkavian or Čakavian, and might as well be a kind of para-Štokavian. ISO codes are not only politically biased but completely irrelevant in this.

 

[Milan.M]

For our purposes (i. e. reconstructing the migration of the ancestors of the South Slavs) we are interested in languages considered as linguistic constructs and not as political entities. The standard language of Croatia is based on Štokavian, a dialect which is spoken by the majority of Serbs. Torlakian is closer to Štokavian than are either Kajkavian or Čakavian, and might as well be a kind of para-Štokavian. ISO codes are not only politically biased but completely irrelevant in this.

Many people in the Balkans do not understand this,before national borders and the creation of the standard languages today,there was only dialects then appeared "linguists" from each newly created country to show which dialect is what,it is hilarious even to an amateur.For example i speak the Torlak dialect.Serbian linguist will classify it as Serbian or "transitional",Bulgarians as Bulgarian or transitional and Macedonians as Macedonian dialect in their part of the country,and before the standardisation of modern languages there was little differences,as closer the regions was closer dialect they spoke.

In reality political biases made the languages or dialects much far away from eachother as Bulgarians adopted some dialect of eastern Bulgaria as standard,Serbs some Shtokavian or so called Serbo-Croatian was based on Sthokavian and in reality you have Torlak dialect,Kosovo-Resava dialect etc not in use in standard Serbian,Kajkavian or Cakavian in Croatian standard.

Some dialects are in danger because of this as for example Torlakian is,Serbs will claim is broken Serbian likewise neighbors around,and in reality is more archaic and more mutually inteligiable to each South Slavic country as it is "transitional".

Standardisation of languages happened when each country was created and appeared "linguists" with political affiliation to claim which dialect is what,the closer the region was closer dialect they spoke it is very simple,national borders today make boundaries between regions and dialects that are not natural, and many dialects will go extinct.

 

[Wonomyro]

For our purposes (i. e. reconstructing the migration of the ancestors of the South Slavs) we are interested in languages considered as linguistic constructs and not as political entities.

The ISO codes presented were language codes, not country codes.

The standard language of Croatia is based on Štokavian, a dialect which is spoken by the majority of Serbs.

Does any of that mean that Croatian language is less Croatian? If yes, then how come?

Torlakian is closer to Štokavian than are either Kajkavian or Čakavian, and might as well be a kind of para-Štokavian.

That is just another myth that became “truth” over time because:

Another dialect, Torlakian, is spoken in southern and eastern Serbia, northern Macedonia and western Bulgaria; it is considered transitional between the Central and Eastern groups of South Slavic languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Torlakian_dialect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Dialectal_classification

ISO codes are not only politically biased but completely irrelevant in this.

Indeed they are relevant because you stated: “there is no Croatian language”. I showed you the ISO codes. So the language obviously exists.

 

[markod]

The ISO codes presented were language codes, not country codes.



Does any of that mean that Croatian language is not Croatian? If yes, then how come?



That is just another Serbian myth that became “truth” over time because:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Torlakian_dialect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Dialectal_classification



Indeed they are relevant because you stated: “there is no Croatian language”. I showed you the ISO codes. So the language obviously exists.

ISO codes make no claim to linguistic veracity, they are inherently political. In your earlier post you also disingenuously equated 'Serbian' with the Torlakian dialect, claiming it was 'transitional' between Eastern South Slavic and Serbo-Croatian even though the majority of Serbs do not speak Torlakian. You missed the more important point that the terms 'Croat', 'Serb', 'Bosniak' etc. are completely irrelevant to the study of Serbo-Croatian dialects.

The Wikipedia article completely misinterprets Friedmann's paper. He correctly identifies Torlakian as a Serbo-Croatian language that is situated within a Balkanic Sprachbund together with Macedonian & Bulgarian (as well as Albanian, Greek, Arumanian). It is still a Serbo-Croatian language, just like English is a Germanic language and not a transitional language between Anglo-Saxon and French.

 

[Angela]

I do not show chauvinism neither am I Serbian I have one Serbian ancestor a Great Grandfather, I also have English Armenian/Anatolian and Greek/Italian ancestors still with all that mix I am genetically European so are all my direct family members so I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have mainly Greek and English genetics again according to GED not my opinion

Albanians aren't even on the plotting map. Because you're mixed in with whatever population you settled in when you came to the Balkans during the middle ages naw, Serbians do not plot with Albanians rather, Albanians plot with Italians Greeks and Serbs.

Your infractions have expired. Do you really want to start collecting more?

I've just about had it with you constantly coming back to t-roll Albanians. Keep a civil tongue in your head.

Also, STOP posting nonsense for which you provide absolutely no scientific, genetic evidence, and stop provoking other posters.

This is not the local bar or some t-roll site. We're supposed to be exchanging and discussing scientific evidence.

 

[Wonomyro]

ISO codes make no claim to linguistic veracity, they are inherently political.

ISO stands for "International Organization for Standardization". They are experts, not politicians.

In your earlier post you also disingenuously equated 'Serbian' with the Torlakian dialect, claiming it was 'transitional' between Eastern South Slavic and Serbo-Croatian even though the majority of Serbs do not speak Torlakian.

No I haven't equated 'Serbian' with the Torlakian dialect. I said that some Serbian dialects are transitional between two major South Slavic branches.

You missed the more important point that the terms 'Croat', 'Serb', 'Bosniak' etc. are completely irrelevant to the study of Serbo-Croatian dialects.

One can't study languages if one doesn’t know how the speakers identify themselves. Today, and especially in the past.

The Wikipedia article completely misinterprets Friedmann's paper. He correctly identifies Torlakian as a Serbo-Croatian language that is situated within a Balkanic Sprachbund together with Macedonian & Bulgarian (as well as Albanian, Greek, Arumanian). It is still a Serbo-Croatian language, just like English is a Germanic language and not a transitional language between Anglo-Saxon and French.

They do not misinterpret anything. They just sum up the present state of knowledge.

The comparison with English and French makes no sense. They belong to entirely different branches of IE languages. If you like comparisons then imagine that someone says that “there is no English language” because “majority of Irishmen” speak the same language as Englishmen. That would be a nonsense, don’t you think?

 

[markod]

ISO stands for "International Organization for Standardization". They are experts, not politicians.

They aren't.

No I haven't equated 'Serbian' with the Torlakian dialect. I said that some Serbian dialects are transitional between two major South Slavic branches.

You said: "Serbian dialects are in the middle of the split as the eastern Srbian dialects are transitional to Bulgarian." Most Serbians don't speak Torlakian, they speak the very dialect Standard Croatian is based on.

One can't study languages if one doesn’t know how the speakers identify themselves. Today, and especially in the past.

We don't care about feelings and quite subjective notions of identity, we prefer facts.

They do not misinterpret anything. They just sum up the present state of knowledge.

They're doing a bad job. Here's what Victor Friedman actually says:

"As a linguistic entity, BLA (Balkanic Linguistic Area) is traditionally associated with four Indo-European groups: Balkan Slavic (BS)---Bulgarian, Macedonian, and the Southeast (Torlak) dialects of former Serbo-Croatian (BCS) (Friedman 2006);
Balkan Romance (BR)---Romanian, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian (Atanasov 1990, Dyer 1999, Friedman 2001,
Gołąb 1984); Hellenic (Horrocks 1997, Høeg 1925-1926, Mallory & Adams 1997); and Albanian (Friedman 2004)."

If I remember correctly, it was the Croatian school of linguistics that first identified Torlakian as Štokavian - there is no bias in this. Shared isoglosses are due to intense contacts with Bulgarian, Romance.

 

[Milan.M]

Here it is from present day point of view even on wiki

Ethnic affiliation of native speakers of Shtokavian dialect

During the first half of the 19th century, protagonists of nascent Slavic philology were, as far as South Slavic dialects were concerned, embroiled in frequently bitter polemic about "ethnic affiliation" of native speakers of various dialects. This, from contemporary point of view, rather bizarre obsession was motivated primarily by political and national interests that prompted philologists-turned-ideologues to express their views on the subject. The most prominent contenders in the squabble, with conflicting agenda, were the Czech philologist Josef Dobrovský, the Slovak Pavel Šafárik, the Slovenes Jernej Kopitar and Franc Miklošič, the Serb Vuk Karadžić, the Croat of Slovak origin Bogoslav Šulek, and the Croatians Vatroslav Jagić and Ante Starčević.
The dispute was primarily concerned with who can, philologically, be labelled as "Slovene", "Croat" and "Serb" with the aim of expanding one's national territory and influence. Born in the climate of romanticism and national awakening, these polemical "battles" led to increased tensions between the aforementioned nations, especially because the Shtokavian dialect cannot be split along ethnic lines in an unequivocal manner.
However, contemporary native speakers, after process of national crystallization and identification had been completed, can be roughly identified as predominant speakers of various Shtokavian subdialects. Because standard languages propagated through media have strongly influenced and altered the situation in the 19th century, the following attribution must be treated with necessary caution.


That is what i wanted to say,the same is with the so called eastern ones Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects.

 

[Crya]

Serbs to Roman Dalmatia coming from Greece, no one has genetics which prove this migration in Roman Dalmatia (today's Croatia, Serbia, etc).

Where did you get this from??

 

[Crya]

No.

Only a part of Montenegrins started to declare themselves as Serbs after 1991. Montenegro is under a jurisdiction of Serb Orthodox Church which has been actively promoting Serb identity among its belevers. The division is mainly political and ideological rather then ethnical.

You are kidding, right? Don't claim something you have no clue about it.

 

[hrvat22]

Montenegrin cluster with Serbs and identify as such I can give you their FaceBook pages if you don't believe me I know many people from Romanian Croatia Serbia Montenegro Macedonia etc I have never in my life came across a Montenegrin that said he wasn't Serb

You talking about today's state of mind of these people, I'm talking about genetic source of these people as far as men are concerned.

However, when they enter in the United States, the vast majority of Montenegrins are being declare themselves as Montenegrins under race. Smaller part declares themselves as Serbs. That's in beginning of the 20th century. If someone today himself considered as Croat, Serb or Macedonian can not change its original genetic origin.

If Saxons are working in Serbian mines (they are colonists who come to Serbia at the invitation of the Serbian king Uros I (1243-1276), then in today's Serbs exist genetic that originally came from these Saxons. We are talking about original origin.

https://www.libertyellisfoundation.org/passenger

 

[Crya]

Most of the chaos in the Balkans is due to the Putinoid propaganda alot of its inhabitants are buying. The west has little-to-none influence in the Balkans, unlike what conspiracy-theorists think.

First sentence is partially true. Second one is completely false. West have huge influence on Balkan. Both economical and military. Even in Serbia, which is the most East oriented you have huge economical influence of Western countries since all the investments are coming from the West. For the other Balkan countries that is not questionable at all. There are military bases all around Balkan which are all NATO not Russian.

 

[hrvat22]

Are you reading between the lines? This guy was a ethnic Albanian who lives in Kosovo with Serbian genetics.

He was not a Serbian with Albanian ancestors

Assimilation goes in all directions, I do not know what you are talking about, but if you think that Albanians have and Croatian genetics this is logic because the Croatians in the history records come all the way to Durrës https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrës

There is also Serbian colonization of Kosovo from Croatia.

 

[hrvat22]

Lenab

Albanians plotting with Serbs would kind of indicate that Serbs were there before Albanians not vice versa.

Show genetics that prove that. You entering in the twilight zone.

 

[LABERIA]

Not a fan of Zionism so not a fan of his thanks

What makes you think that my post was addressed to you? You are not from the Balkans, right?

 

[hrvat22]

All South Serbs and Montenegrin identify as being Serbs same as the North Serbs who call themselves North Serbs not Hungarians

So now we can establish Serbian genetics isn't written in stone either. South Serbs are more Pontid and Alpine Med North Serbs are more genetically Dinaric South Serbs are genetically more Mediterranean let's say that being Albanian isn't some calling card for being some kind of a well...You know what

Today most of the Vlachs in Croatia or Bosnia declare themselves as Serbians, but originally with Serbians have nothing to do. Now you understand?

 

[LABERIA]

Show genetics that prove that. You entering in the twilight zone.

It`is useless, believe me. Read what serbian version of Wiki write about History of Albanians:
https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Албанци

P.S.
Funny because among the "scholars" cited in the article, appart the famous Deretic, there is someone with the surname Terzić, lol.

 

[hrvat22]

Hilarious. How many people under the age of 50 speak Kajkavian in Zagreb?

We do not have original Croatian kingdom around Zagreb, we have first kingdom in Dalmatia.

However one Croatian dialect has nothing to do with origin of anyone, it's enough to look non-Indo-European I2a in Dalmatia and Croatia, carriers of the same in today Croatia all speake Indoeuropean language.

 

[hrvat22]

For our purposes (i. e. reconstructing the migration of the ancestors of the South Slavs) we are interested in languages considered as linguistic constructs and not as political entities. The standard language of Croatia is based on Štokavian, a dialect which is spoken by the majority of Serbs. Torlakian is closer to Štokavian than are either Kajkavian or Čakavian, and might as well be a kind of para-Štokavian. ISO codes are not only politically biased but completely irrelevant in this.

Language has nothing to do with origin of the man, Bosnian Serbs have a second haplotype in the population (E1b) which has nothing to do with Slavs and Slavic language, but all these people speak Slavic. Do you understand now?

 

[hrvat22]

Here it is from present day point of view even on wiki

Ethnic affiliation of native speakers of Shtokavian dialect

During the first half of the 19th century, protagonists of nascent Slavic philology were, as far as South Slavic dialects were concerned, embroiled in frequently bitter polemic about "ethnic affiliation" of native speakers of various dialects. This, from contemporary point of view, rather bizarre obsession was motivated primarily by political and national interests that prompted philologists-turned-ideologues to express their views on the subject. The most prominent contenders in the squabble, with conflicting agenda, were the Czech philologist Josef Dobrovský, the Slovak Pavel Šafárik, the Slovenes Jernej Kopitar and Franc Miklošič, the Serb Vuk Karadžić, the Croat of Slovak origin Bogoslav Šulek, and the Croatians Vatroslav Jagić and Ante Starčević.
The dispute was primarily concerned with who can, philologically, be labelled as "Slovene", "Croat" and "Serb" with the aim of expanding one's national territory and influence. Born in the climate of romanticism and national awakening, these polemical "battles" led to increased tensions between the aforementioned nations, especially because the Shtokavian dialect cannot be split along ethnic lines in an unequivocal manner.
However, contemporary native speakers, after process of national crystallization and identification had been completed, can be roughly identified as predominant speakers of various Shtokavian subdialects. Because standard languages propagated through media have strongly influenced and altered the situation in the 19th century, the following attribution must be treated with necessary caution.


That is what i wanted to say,the same is with the so called eastern ones Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects.

Language or dialect has nothing to do with the origin of man. Hello, anybody here!?