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Thread: Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

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    Question Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

    I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

    South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

    Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

    Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

    I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

    Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

    Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

    Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
    Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
    Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
    Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

    Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the
    Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post

    Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
    Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
    Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
    Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

    Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the
    Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.
    In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

    The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women
    .

    This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

    For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

    https://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-co...ports-2012.pdf

    As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

    .

    This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

    For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

    https://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-co...ports-2012.pdf

    As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.
    You're right, I was thinking about south-western Croatia and Rijeka.

    I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.
    But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist
    Paleo-Balkanicgenetic influence
    and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

    I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

    I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.
    Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?

    The answer is obviously male-biased migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

    Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
    Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
    Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
    Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

    Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the
    Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.
    That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

    Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

    What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

    Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

    What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?
    well according to Dibran;
    "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

    Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

    *I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    well according to Dibran;
    "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

    Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

    *I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
    its not according to me. It’s according to the actual DNA results. A simple google search will bring it up for you. There’s published papers that mention these. Specifically J2b-L283 in specific. If you go to the haplo section for J2 it mentions the sample I am referring to.

    Slavs married native women. That explains how native dna was passed down into Balkan Slavs. Paternally you’re Slavic. Technically so is my line. Even though I’m Albanian it probably arrived with Proto Slavs during the Middle Ages. Nothing to be ashamed about.

    The only souths Slavs with native paternal Y chromosomes are Bulgarians Macedonians and to some extent Montenegrin and Serbs. However most Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are paternally descended from Slavs in majority.

    Theres been no I2a1b in Illyrians. The clade almost all south Slavs belong is exclusively a young downstream clade under CTS10228. The parent of which was found in Motala.

    Sarmatian elite were probably R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. Much of the groups referred to as Sarmatians were probably Proto Slavic any ways. The only Balkan group that could maybe be connected to Proto slavic tribes is Dacians in the Carpathians. Not Illyrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    well according to Dibran;
    "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

    Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

    *I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
    Northern and Central Illyrians could lack I2a-Din (I somehow doubt they lacked I2 entirely, though it could not have been among their main Y-DNA haplogroup), but still be autosomally more northern in terms of admixture distribution than their southern counterparts in Greece, Macedonia and Albania, especially if (as I think it's likely) they had been subject to much more northern influences than people in South Balkans (Illyrians in the northern areas are actually supposed to be part of the Hallstatt cultural zone, for example). They could have just had a different history of success and failure in male lineages, but that does not tell us much about their entire ancestral history (for example Basques are overwhelmingly R1b-L51 and Irish people, too, but the latter have very much more BA Steppe ancestry). I won't say all or even most of that "Polish affinity" can be explained this way, but I'd bet that some of it can.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    well according to Dibran;
    "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "
    Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.
    *I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
    he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
    but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
    The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
    .
    this link below only study J2b
    read what they say about that marker
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
    but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
    The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
    .
    this link below only study J2b
    read what they say about that marker
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
    IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt

    The Romans, aside from committing atrocities[39] during the war, split up Illyrian tribes into different groups from the ones they had previously composed. (...) Other members of tribes were probably sold as slaves.[41] or deported to different locations, such as the Azali.[42]
    Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.
    Neopisivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
    but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
    The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
    .
    this link below only study J2b
    read what they say about that marker
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
    You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.

    J2b2 is among the best candidates for Illyrian, along with R1b-L23 and EV13.

    There is decent amount of J2b2 in Italy, while I2a1b-CTS10228 is 0% there.

    If I was sperging like you always are, I would claim J2b2 was brought to India by Alexander The Great's Illyrian soldiers:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).
    Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).
    Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?
    The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheg View Post
    Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.
    That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

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    They were soft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?
    .

    Nobody will ever know for sure, but there are two versions according to me: Illyrians could have been in contact with Slavs before been invaded and invited them to settle in sparsely populated areas to defend against avars and other Turkic invaders. The mindset could have been different at that time. But it did change latter. Albanian word for the ugly enemy is Dushmani, which is Albanian linguistic version of Dushani ( tzar Dushani))The Slavs may not have been seen as bad as they are seen today. Ones the first wave of Slavs came peacefully the second one was a tsunami.
    In sparsity of Albanian population there were two known factors: Roman constantly drafting, left Albanian areas always male short. Illyrian males were serving in Roman outposts from England to Egypt. Also at the 5th century there is a known plague. There are extensive records about that. The extent of that plague was devastating. That is the period of first Slavs coming to Balkans as well. So Illyrians had no time to recover their numbers over the devastation of plague.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crya View Post
    That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?
    If you watch the Deretiç videos on YouTube you will never learn anything about history.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheg View Post
    Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?



    Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.



    The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.
    Not necessarily in terms of autosomal DNA. They could have had a similar Y-DNA makeup due to the strong patrilineality of most BA and IA Indo-European groups and eventual founder effects, but that could have not prevented gradual mixing with neighboring populations, especially northerners. Also, I really do not know, so I ask: do we have ancient Iron Age (so presumably Illyrian "proper") auDNA and Y-DNA from all of the Western Balkans, stretching from Croatia/Slovenia to Albania in the south? If not, how can we assume that all of the "northern" input was necessarily an addition into a homogeneously Albanian-like people (and see that the proxy used was Poland, which clearly had Central & Northwest European influences, too - Germanic most of all)? I'm not saying the Illyrians were just a linguistic community without a coherent and uniform genetic structure, but I somehow doubt no substructure would've been found. Let's say e.g. that the Southern Illyrians were "70% core Illyrian + 30% extra South European", while Northern Illyrians were "70% proto-Illyrian + 30% extra North/Central European". They'd still form a mostly homogeneous linguistic and genetic unity, but with clear substructure.

    That does not even imply, of course, that the genetic replacement by Slavs was not really large, or that depopulation of much of the Balkans did not happen (allowing Slavs to migrate and conquer more easily). That is not what I'm trying to say, but just that we may be overestimating its impact a bit (as I said in my first speculative example, say 40% instead of 29%, not that big a difference) by using as proxies of Illyrians of the North Balkans the modern-day Albanians, and as proxies of the Slavs the modern Polish (I'd personally have preferred a Belarusian proxy, but I'm no expert on this subject, so leave it at that). As I said previously, I find it really hard to believe that, if the Slavic expansion was really a people migration as it seems, and not a linguistic/cultural expansion more than anything else, they would've had such a populous society in such a highly populated homeland that they would be able to settle much of Europe from Eastern Germany to Northwest Russia and from there to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece - and yet they'd have numbers enough to make a demic impact of more than 70% in sizeable parts of the Balkans. They would have to have had a huge population to achieve that feat, or then an unprecedented population boom in the latter centuries of the Middle Ages to make that happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

    South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

    Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

    Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

    I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

    Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

    Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?
    There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you). The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup.

    Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians and this could leave a slim possibility of I2-Din and R1a being connected to the free Dacians in the Carpathian range. Connecting it to Illyrians is just wishful thinking. While I2 May have been present it surely was not the young clade I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs. Most likely it would be the basal I2a1 or the variety found in Sardinia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians
    They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.

    There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din.
    I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.



    I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.
    Maybe. However, absent any ADNA for M458 the theories range from Carpathian origin, Lusatian around Gdansk, or Trziniec Culture, a eastern offshoot culture of Lusatian. We won't know for certain without ancient remains. Given most of its diversity ranged from Romania to Poland, and the highest concentration is in Central Europe, this is where its proposed origin has been mentioned. Many of the tribes Romans called East Germanic may not have even been so. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiveMindTerror View Post
    South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

    Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria.

    You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

    Anyway, there is a very nice post on the origins of I2a here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post554069, post 9, by Vlad. The most common clades of the South Slavs today seem to have spread from Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

    Anyway, there is a very nice post on the origins of I2a here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post554069, post 9, by Vlad. The most common clades of the South Slavs today seem to have spread from Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.
    This is migration of White Croats.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

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    After all ... what does the Slav mean?! Haplogrup, whatever it is, I do not think it means... Genetically, they are almost identical to those around them, even if they do not call themselves Slavs.

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