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Thread: China, China, China!

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    Chinese scientists are creating CRISPR babies.
    A daring effort is under way to create the first children whose DNA has been tailored using gene editing.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...Wn04idgfUgVMko

    they are going to use technology that is considered non-ethical in the west, and I don't see how we can prevent them from doing so

    it is important to be more critical about what is ethical and what not
    we must be sure our judgment is not clouded by lobbyists of all kinds or by political correctness
    or we will be no match for China and the like

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

    This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad!

    Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

    It's beyond me. Was skepticism as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not very often subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

    Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

    Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of privacy?

    Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be brought back to the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".
    Last edited by Angela; 27-11-18 at 00:26.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

    This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad????

    Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

    It's beyond me. Was independence as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

    Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

    Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of property?

    Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be taught in the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".
    Swedes are authority-slaves, unfortunately. Too Teutonic and soulless, but of course being orderly isn't such a bad thing in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Swedes are authority-slaves, unfortunately. Too Teutonic and soulless, but of course being orderly isn't such a bad thing in the end.
    You've just earned yourself an infraction. There is no insulting or t-rolling of ethnic groups permitted here.

    Not a good way to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

    This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad????

    Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

    It's beyond me. Was independence as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

    Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

    Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of property?

    Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be taught in the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".
    a cashless society is the dream of many governments, western European in the first place

    I agree, it's an open door to Big Brother
    in the long run, they'll replace money by a good or bad rating points, depending on your behaviour, which they'll monitor 24/7

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    China is doing its work - to be an Empire again. Every little chinese childs knOws memorize their own severalthousand old poems. Do our three years olds perform Esops works? So why suddenly we are surprised the one billion people nation wishes to be the ruler of the world again?
    Our task is to rceive the challenge - and defend our western values and style of life. And learn how tolive with China side by side. Because we and dying China will face new billions subsaharan African immigration to Eurasia in the 22nd Century. Maybe all this will be enriching to Europe as every attacks in the past, starting with Homo sapiens sapiens against our forefathers Neanderthals.
    Take my words with humour - I am also too scared by chinese (Big brother) ownerships of VPN apps we are using on daily basis in the Far East.

    They Chinese don't need to do much empire building - the countries that they are primarily interested in are gravitating towards China anyway. If they can economically integrate geographically pivotal and resource-rich Russia and Iran that will be a problem for us, as it would entail a huge decline in influence and economic power. They might manage to do just this without firing a single bullet:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    They Chinese don't need to do much empire building - the countries that they are primarily interested in are gravitating towards China anyway. If they can economically integrate geographically pivotal and resource-rich Russia and Iran that will be a problem for us, as it would entail a huge decline in influence and economic power. They might manage to do just this without firing a single bullet:
    Saoudi-Arabia is just as evil as Iran, and Erdogan is just as trustworthy as Putin.
    But Saoudi-Arabia and Erdogan are allies and Iran and Putin enemies to the west.
    That leaves opportunities for China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

    Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of property?

    Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be taught in the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".
    It may have been true until very recently. I think things are currently changing, and rather dramatically so.

    As long as democracy was seen as something better than what there had been before, as long as it meant perceptible social and economic progress ("Les trente glorieuses" - the thirty-year post-war boom), people were prepared to trust their leaders and let things roll on. Then it grew into a habit, and it took some time for people to react.

    Now they are gradually becoming aware of the fact that "the state [as an institutionalized body of power] is the fascistic temptation of democracy" (L'état est la tentation fasciste de la démocratie - André Malraux). Once voted in, leaders pursue an agenda of their own, ignoring the aspirations and requests of the people who put them there. They stick to their crazy, suicidal immigration policies, to their suicidal international trade agreements, to their submissiveness to the EU's unelected body of tyrannical technocrats.

    Consequences : at EU level, you get the Brexit, Salvini and Orban, the Visegrad group's growing resistance, etc... at state levels, you now have Merkel in trouble, and French people on the streets protesting against stifling tax reforms.

    Fingers crossed. I doubt Macron will readily accept the idea that "the best government is the least government", but he may be learning things these days.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

    This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad!


    Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

    It's beyond me. Was skepticism as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not very often subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

    Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

    Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of privacy?

    Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be brought back to the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".
    Why would you do that if you can do the same with your phone and more? Seems like a story of one mad scientist or perhaps a fake one. But you know Swedes, so socialistic that they have to be crazy, right?

    Anyway, the only cure against rampant policing of everybody is to make sure we elect smart and honest freedom loving people to run countries. Once we have tyrants, they will use all available technology to control society. And no amount of feet stomping or a civil war will change their minds.

    Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?
    So if you have a good democratic government, the chip under your skin (implanted at your will) is your convenience, nothing more.
    If you have a tyrant, an obsessive and controlling government, you will have the chip under the skin implanted (by order), and AI watching you from camperas, all the time for his convenience.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    a cashless society is the dream of many governments, western European in the first place

    I agree, it's an open door to Big Brother
    in the long run, they'll replace money by a good or bad rating points, depending on your behaviour, which they'll monitor 24/7
    Funny thing, I have one rather conservative friend with a big dose of conspiracy theorist in him. (You know, they keeping ordinary people stupid and poor for a reason.) Imagine this, he was the first adopter of a debit card. Simply by convenience. He hated to carry a bulky wallet, but now he could walk around with just one card for convenience in his pocket. I was making fun of him that it is not about convenience, but tipping for service. No cash, sorry, no tip. Well, at least back then when debit machines were not that smart.
    Anyway, perhaps the simplest explanation is convenience, ease of use, comfort, faster way, technological progress, etc. Actually, western governments are the last adopters of such technologies. Simply, because bureaucrats hate more work. And any change requires initiative, learning and more work. Yak.

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    If anyone were to force me to wear a chip that monitors my behavior and awards points based on being an "outstanding citizen" I would curse them out, rip the chip out and flush it down a grimy toilet and make sure they see it spiral down the tube so these worthless piece of crap lowlifes know how I feel about them
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    They Chinese don't need to do much empire building - the countries that they are primarily interested in are gravitating towards China anyway. If they can economically integrate geographically pivotal and resource-rich Russia and Iran that will be a problem for us, as it would entail a huge decline in influence and economic power. They might manage to do just this without firing a single bullet:

    The silk road - I think it is more idealistic concept in the head of Xi Jinping (Belt and Road Iniciative), not rality. Russia and China? Enemies who are together if any other enemy is in sight, they never truly cooperated and will not cooperate. If you look at your neat map - Central Asia was always strategic region for Russia - do you eally believe that they would give up it so easily for the sake of Silk road idea? I mean to give up in favour of China? I believe that Russia would never do it.

    So to manage this dream, it is not so easy. Look at 16+China iniciative, for example. A lot of words with little results, if not taking into account Serbia and some other countries where China was active before launching the mentioned iniciative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    If anyone were to force me to wear a chip that monitors my behavior and awards points based on being an "outstanding citizen" I would curse them out, rip the chip out and flush it down a grimy toilet and make sure they see it spiral down the tube so these worthless piece of crap lowlifes know how I feel about them
    If I am not wrong, China had this concept partially in the past already - not in electronic way, of course, but as a concept of good citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    If I am not wrong, China had this concept partially in the past already - not in electronic way, of course, but as a concept of good citizen.
    It's so ridiculous. I read they monitor things like driving over the speed limit. So if the US (as highly unlikely as it is) were to implement this, would driving just a mile over the speed limit impact my score? Would drinking alcohol impact my score, even if it's just a simple glass of wine at dinner? And to worsen things, it's essentially stamping a value on a person and forcing him/her to carry it around. That's completely demoralizing. I'm not against grading systems like what we see in schools, those are essential but this takes it too far

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    The silk road - I think it is more idealistic concept in the head of Xi Jinping (Belt and Road Iniciative), not rality. Russia and China? Enemies who are together if any other enemy is in sight, they never truly cooperated and will not cooperate. If you look at your neat map - Central Asia was always strategic region for Russia - do you eally believe that they would give up it so easily for the sake of Silk road idea? I mean to give up in favour of China? I believe that Russia would never do it.

    So to manage this dream, it is not so easy. Look at 16+China iniciative, for example. A lot of words with little results, if not taking into account Serbia and some other countries where China was active before launching the mentioned iniciative.
    Russian-China relations have never been better. It's a matter of realism in any case: Russia doesn't have the population or the political will to exploit its vast resources, let alone project power in Central Asia. Russia is not a rising power, but an alliance with China would prevent its decline. Its main adversaries are the EU/US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    The Chinese are now buying farmland in France. Why shouldn't they, if we are stupid enough to let them do it?
    I don't understand this either. French media seem happy to attack middle-class English folk for buying up France's 'precious' chateaux and raising house prices through the purchase of second homes, as indeed the English media seem happy to make reference to Russian and Saudi 'oil dollars' and 'blood money' buying up swathes of London. Yet there's never a mention of the Chinese government buying energy companies, farmland, housing projects, etc. Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Russian-China relations have never been better. It's a matter of realism in any case: Russia doesn't have the population or the political will to exploit its vast resources, let alone project power in Central Asia. Russia is not a rising power, but an alliance with China would prevent its decline. Its main adversaries are the EU/US.
    The EU/US don't leave Russia another option but to form an alliance with China. How else should the Russians react to the expansion of NATO right to their border?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groninger View Post
    The EU/US don't leave Russia another option but to form an alliance with China. How else should the Russians react to the expansion of NATO right to their border?
    But even Russia don`t leave to EU and USA another option. You think that the end of the Cold War was the end of the war? No, it`s an inevitable fatality, Thucydides Trap is called.
    "τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἡγοῦμαι μεγάλους γιγνομένους καὶ φόβον παρέχοντας τοῖς Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀναγκἀσαι ἐς τὸ πολεμεῖν"
    "What made war inevitable was the growth of Athenian power and the fear which this caused in Sparta."
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    But even Russia don`t leave to EU and USA another option. You think that the end of the Cold War was the end of the war? No, it`s an inevitable fatality, Thucydides Trap is called.
    "τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἡγοῦμαι μεγάλους γιγνομένους καὶ φόβον παρέχοντας τοῖς Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀναγκἀσαι ἐς τὸ πολεμεῖν"
    "What made war inevitable was the growth of Athenian power and the fear which this caused in Sparta."
    Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groninger View Post
    Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.
    I don't know about NATO, but some western politicians who should have known better were pretty naïve about the orange revolution at Maidan square.
    Nevertheless if Saoudi-Arabia is goin to become a NATO member, I don't see why Ukraïne not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    I don't understand this either. French media seem happy to attack middle-class English folk for buying up France's 'precious' chateaux and raising house prices through the purchase of second homes, as indeed the English media seem happy to make reference to Russian and Saudi 'oil dollars' and 'blood money' buying up swathes of London. Yet there's never a mention of the Chinese government buying energy companies, farmland, housing projects, etc. Why?
    I am not aware of much complaining round here against British (or, for that matter, Dutch) people buying real estate in France. In fact it keeps prices from plummeting in remote rural areas, which is good news for those who sell.

    As regards Chinese-owned farms, well, they currently distribute their produce locally. But the concern is that they might in future ship their production directly from the farm to China if demand there rises dramatically. Which would pose a risk for European food safety. Chinese reps are already buying significant quantities of timber, which goes straight to China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I am not aware of much complaining round here against British (or, for that matter, Dutch) people buying real estate in France. In fact it keeps prices from plummeting in remote rural areas, which is good news for those who sell.

    As regards Chinese-owned farms, well, they currently distribute their produce locally. But the concern is that they might in future ship their production directly from the farm to China if demand there rises dramatically. Which would pose a risk for European food safety. Chinese reps are already buying significant quantities of timber, which goes straight to China.
    are the Chinese buying farms in France?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groninger View Post
    Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.
    Excuse me, but what they should have done in your opinion, stay good and see that Russia surpassed the difficult moment and then return back stronger and not only recover everything that had lost but even see one day the Russian soldiers wash their boots on the Channel? The end of the Cold War means only the end of an episode of this clash between Russia and the West, not the end of the war per se.
    Then, we must not forget that there was also an almost unanimous will to join EU and NATO, not only of the governments of the former member countries of the Warsaw Pact but also of the population of these countries who have always seen participation in these pacts(Warsaw and Comecon), not as an alliance but as an occupation by the Soviets.
    However the principle is simple, if you do not attack them, they will attack you. There is no third option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groninger View Post
    Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.
    Countries can't enter NATO by their own will because they will anger Russia?!

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    Of course it is understandable the former Warschau Pact nations wanted to join NATO, but NATO should not have accepted them, especially in the case of the Baltic states; that has been a Peace of Weimar-like mistake.

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