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Thread: Early depiction of Jesus

  1. #26
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    2 members found this post helpful.


    If I had to bet I would say that there was probably some variation in the Judeans of the first century AD, as there is in most West Eurasian groups. The likelihood that there would have been a presence of blonde, blue-eyed people is, imo, extremely low.

    The phenotype of Ashkenazim like Jerry Seinfeld is largely irrelevant, as they are anywhere from 40-60% European. I would think that 10-15% Polish and maybe an equal amount of Rhineland ancestry alone might be enough to change them up a bit. Plus, I don't think Europeans, not living amongst a lot of Jews, are aware of the fact that even among Ashkenazi Jews there's a lot of variation. Some look more like Rahm Emanuel than Jerry Seinfeld.



    The phenotype of Syrian Jews is also largely irrelevant, as they have a great deal of Sephardic, i.e. European Jewish ancestry. Plus, Rabbis largely have been sequestered indoors studying the Torah and the Mishnah since early childhood, so they may not be the best example.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Jews

    The only West Eurasian Jews who would have no European ancestry would be the Iraqi and Iranian Jews, although it could be said they've intermarried with their own set of locals.

    One of the most recent studies:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006644

    As for Asad, even among his very reproductively isolated minority, where recessive genes can float up, he's hardly "typical".

    Also, I think the entire discussion has gotten rather sidetracked. The "reconstructions" show the men as they most probably "were" i.e. with the weathered skin of men who have lived their lives outdoors under the Middle Eastern sun. The people of the Levant are not "black" skinned. They don't even have the complexion of people from North Africa, many of whom have up to 20% SSA in them. I think olive to light brown skinned probably covers the range. The features are also rather distinctive in most cases.

    What possible reason would there be to insist that all first century Judeans looked like Asad rather than like most modern inhabitants of the Levant, other than a discomfort with picturing Jesus as "other"?

    I do understand the impulse. Most people have a tendency to make important figures, especially religious figures, resemble them. That's why the Virgin of Guadalupe is Amerindian, and the Buddha looks East Asian. Here, however, we're supposed to be looking at facts, and specifically at genetics.

    Of course, the only way to really know is to get ancient dna from first century Judeans, or people from the time of the Maccabees, for example, and look at the snps. All the speculation in the world is no substitute.

    The controversy over the Shroud of Turin will not end until modern scientists can find a way to duplicate the process.


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    Would love to see how they reconstructed this. On the left is the actual place of the "inscription" and on the right is the "proposed" reconstruction.



    Read the Journal at Cambridge and didn't see any details: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...81/core-reader


    "Shivta was a large village dated to the Byzantine period, which, at its fifth- to sixth-century AD peak included three churches (Figure 1). The site declined considerably in the Early Islamic period (seventh to late ninth centuries AD), and was then abandoned, until its nineteenth-century rediscovery. We examined the Shivta churches’ main features to reconstruct the site’s historical trajectory in the context of understanding the Byzantine collapse in the Negev Desert (Tepper et al. 2015, 2018). We documented the extant artwork depicting the transfiguration of Christ on the walls of Shivta’s southern church (Linn et al. 2017; Maayan-Fanar 2017)."


    Link to the study mentioned in the above quote: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0185149

    On a side note:

    I really enjoy the art from the Dura-Europos Synagogue in Syria.

    The Dura-Europos synagogue (or "Dura Europas", "Dura Europos" etc.) was an ancient synagogue uncovered at Dura-Europos, Syria, in 1932. The last phase of construction was dated by an Aramaic inscription to 244 CE, making it one of the oldest synagogues in the world. It was unique among the many ancient synagogues that have emerged from archaeological digs as the structure was preserved virtually intact, and it had extensive figurative wall-paintings, which came as a considerable surprise to scholars. These paintings are now displayed in the National Museum of Damascus. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_synagogue

    Just a few below. I encourage everyone to check them all out.






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    The new astonishing phenomenon detected on the Shroud

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6iQGomNqTw


    BTW. We know that Leonardo da Vinci was a genius.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If I had to bet I would say that there was probably some variation in the Judeans of the first century AD, as there is in most West Eurasian groups. The likelihood that there would have been a presence of blonde, blue-eyed people is, imo, extremely low.

    The phenotype of Ashkenazim like Jerry Seinfeld is largely irrelevant, as they are anywhere from 40-60% European. I would think that 10-15% Polish and maybe an equal amount of Rhineland ancestry alone might be enough to change them up a bit. Plus, I don't think Europeans, not living amongst a lot of Jews, are aware of the fact that even among Ashkenazi Jews there's a lot of variation. Some look more like Rahm Emanuel than Jerry Seinfeld.



    The phenotype of Syrian Jews is also largely irrelevant, as they have a great deal of Sephardic, i.e. European Jewish ancestry. Plus, Rabbis largely have been sequestered indoors studying the Torah and the Mishnah since early childhood, so they may not be the best example.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Jews

    The only West Eurasian Jews who would have no European ancestry would be the Iraqi and Iranian Jews, although it could be said they've intermarried with their own set of locals.

    One of the most recent studies:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006644

    As for Asad, even among his very reproductively isolated minority, where recessive genes can float up, he's hardly "typical".

    Also, I think the entire discussion has gotten rather sidetracked. The "reconstructions" show the men as they most probably "were" i.e. with the weathered skin of men who have lived their lives outdoors under the Middle Eastern sun. The people of the Levant are not "black" skinned. They don't even have the complexion of people from North Africa, many of whom have up to 20% SSA in them. I think olive to light brown skinned probably covers the range. The features are also rather distinctive in most cases.

    What possible reason would there be to insist that all first century Judeans looked like Asad rather than like most modern inhabitants of the Levant, other than a discomfort with picturing Jesus as "other"?

    I do understand the impulse. Most people have a tendency to make important figures, especially religious figures, resemble them. That's why the Virgin of Guadalupe is Amerindian, and the Buddha looks East Asian. Here, however, we're supposed to be looking at facts, and specifically at genetics.

    Of course, the only way to really know is to get ancient dna from first century Judeans, or people from the time of the Maccabees, for example, and look at the snps. All the speculation in the world is no substitute.

    The controversy over the Shroud of Turin will not end until modern scientists can find a way to duplicate the process.
    Well firstly, Seinfeld is half-Ashkenazi and half-Syrian Jewish, but forgetting individual examples for now - that STILL doesn't explain the red hair (and I never claimed blonde hair would be common - anthropologists consider light brown hair blonde). Jews have comparable levels of red hair to all Europeans except NW Europeans, so unless you think Ashkenazim are heavily NW European, there is no way admixture with Europeans is responsible for the red hair. The 40-60% European estimate isn't based on "White" Europeans, it's as you know based on Southern Europeans - who Ashkenazim are lighter than.

    And about Syrian Jews - yeah, fair enough, there is some Sephardic ancestry, but WHY does it matter when this Iberian ancestry picked up would be by far not the largest component, but also given the fact that Spaniards are not THAT lighter, and certainly not as redheaded (and even then, I'd only put Northern Spaniards as being lighter on average). Again, in medieval Spain (and Italy too for that matter), red hair was associated with Jews and Jewish ancestry. In Spain, it wasn't uncommon that you could be accused of being Jewish simply because you had red hair - during the Spanish Inquisition, ALL with red hair were seen as Jews. Polish Jews, especially those from Galicia (the "purest" Ashkenazis in all likelihood - I am 1/4 Galitzianer, and by coincidence that grandparent had bright ginger hair), had a frequency of over 5% for red hair. Now, look at this map:



    That puts Jews in the second highest frequency bracket (besides the >10% bracket), clearly then Jewish red hair is not from a European source, unless we're half-Welsh.

    And this isn't based on some primitive tribalistic impulse - I don't feel much of a connection to the Hebrews (I identify as Ashkenazi). I just genuinely find it very hard to believe that the Hebrews would have been that dark, if Ashkenazim are as light as they are (not Irish, but still pretty light). One perhaps noteworthy thing to mention is that Ashkenazim are more red-haired than are light, if that makes any sense - for example, Germans are paler than Ashkenazim on the whole, but apart from Northwestern pockets are all less red-haired.

    I consider that Egyptian mural the best evidence right now as to the actual rough skin colour of the Hebrews, which is basically a light olive (like that Syrian Chief Rabbi).

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    The genetics of Late Bronze Age Levantines and the appearance of their closest don't agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The new astonishing phenomenon detected on the Shroud

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6iQGomNqTw


    BTW. We know that Leonardo da Vinci was a genius.
    Radio carbon dating is more reliable in my opinion ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioc...hroud_of_Turin

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    As always, nobody refuses to acknowledge my point about Ashkenazi red hair. I've been saying it on-and-off for ages.

    It CANNOT be explained by admixture with Europeans. Therefore, it is of a West Asian source. The semi-fictional King David did not get his red hair from admixture with Italians, Eastern Europeans, Germans or Greeks.

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    This is an extremely interesting read - I first saw this article about a year ago, but I don't think I ever posted it here.

    It is about the extremely obvious connection of the Habiru people to the Hebrew people.

    https://www.newenglishreview.org/Rob...ish_Tradition/

    The Habiru people are in all likelihood related to the earlier Hyksos people (immigrants to the Levant and Egypt from West Asia, just as with the Jewish mythos of Mesopotamian origin). And, what do you know, the Hyksos people were associated by the ancient Egyptians with...

    Red hair!

    Obviously this doesn't constitute a proof, but I absolutely love it when things like this just fall so well together.

    THAT is, in my opinion, the origin of Ashkenazi red hair (and light skin). For whatever reason, this was either preserved best among Ashkenazim, or was enhanced through later contacts during migration to Italy through Anatolia and Greece (which I think is how Ashkenazim got to Italy, before being invited to the Rhineland).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    [Redacted]
    Angela, see my above post and the linked article, I think you'd actually appreciate the read.

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    Early depiction of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    As always, nobody refuses to acknowledge my point about Ashkenazi red hair. I've been saying it on-and-off for ages.

    It CANNOT be explained by admixture with Europeans. Therefore, it is of a West Asian source. The semi-fictional King David did not get his red hair from admixture with Italians, Eastern Europeans, Germans or Greeks.
    I’m sorry you’re frustrated.
    It’s understandable.
    It’s not about Hair Color.
    imo Names of Religious groups shouldn’t be included on any DNA results. Or at least not yet.
    They should stick only with the location. (for now)

    Some Companies and free Calculators, often fail miserably to differentiate between Ashkenazi vs East and South Europeans.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I’m sorry you’re frustrated.
    It’s understandable.

    imo Names of Religious groups shouldn’t be included on any DNA results. Or at least not yet.
    They should stick only with the location. (for now)

    Some Companies and free Calculators, often fail miserably to differentiate between Ashkenazi vs East and South Europeans.
    I'm not that frustrated lol, and with Jews it isn't just religious - it's ethnic too. I'm practically atheist yet if I send my spit off to 23andme, they can tell me I'm fully Ashkenazi. That sort of precision is pretty amazing the more I think about it - not just for Ashkenazim, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Radio carbon dating is more reliable in my opinion ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioc...hroud_of_Turin
    What went wrong with the Shroud‘s radiocarbon date?

    https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ohiomaloneypaper.pdf



    http://www.innoval.com/C14/

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    Difficult to say since the Roman era ones look far too European to me (although it may have been the look of the EEF - longish, narrow head, still very common throughout Europe today), as do any of the Jewish members you folks have posted. Then again, who really knows since apparently the Iron Age brought "Steppe" admixture to the Levant, and there have been post-Iron migrations to the area from Arab and other groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    ....... and with Jews it isn't just religious - it's ethnic too. ........ yet if I send my spit off to 23andme, they can tell me I'm fully Ashkenazi. That sort of precision is pretty amazing the more I think about it - not just for Ashkenazim, of course.
    Answering:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ..... imo Names of Religious groups shouldn’t be included on any DNA results. Or at least not yet.
    They should stick only with the location. (for now)....
    From LivingDNA:
    For the moment, our test does not report on percentages of Jewish ancestry.
    ...... We appreciate that the question of genetic Jewish ancestry is of particular interest for some individuals, and it is definitely an interesting one for science to investigate. We are currently exploring the best ways to present/address this question, to include in further developments of our product...

    https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-...wish-ancestry-

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    Talking of early dipictions of Christ.
    This here Jordan lead Codice is an interesting artifact.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Lead_Codices

    Its hard to find much as the experts waved there magic wand over it to make it vanish.
    Nearly worked but not quite. Science came to its rescue as it was indeed 2000 years old.
    It shows a wealthy and powerful king Jesus who practiced a 1000 year old religion and seems
    to decend from king david.

    King Izates 2nd is my best bet. He's mum queen helena gave her weath to the poor and has the largest tomb in the city of david.
    Izates was crucified and his elder brother ruled after him, They all funded the rebels against the Romans. Seems obvious to me.

    They are blood decent of the house of david who was a pharaoh from Tanis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    We already have solid representatives of the Ancient Levant in modern Druze, Samaritans, and Palestinians. Not one passes as Italians.
    Do you know what your say?
    You gets very fast to conclusions: there are in all the Mediterranea (lands, not sea) a percentage of people who could pass among all the above mentioned people, if this is not the most frequent types there - I think in some Samaritans by instance. Nothing of these pops are strictly homogenous and they propose several profiles, inside their general and vague "southern" appearance

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    No offense to anyone, but I red so much weird things in this thread.
    Red hairs are less seldom among Askhenaze Jews than among the most of Europe, OK. Red hairs can be caused by a lot of mutations (7, I think, 3 very common among red hairs, for the most in Northern Europe), I don't know the distribution of these mutations among Jews - But can we say Askenaze as a whole are light haired and light eyed and very light skinned? No, SPITE the relatively high % of red hairs - I know a lot of pops with as a mean less red haired men but more light skinned men.
    oir the present question (supposed look of Jesus), today Askenaze Jews are a mix of a lot of populations and there supposed earlier population of origin is only an element in their DNA making, even if this element is surely heavy enough - On plottings of diverse systems, they plot between Southern Italians, Chypriots and Greeks - and this supposed source population (I see myself in Near-East, evidently) was already a mixed one, where roughly said Natufians and Anatolian people were the basis, enriched later by people from Iran AND even later (MLBA, I think) by people from Caucasus, even North Caucasus. At the look level, you cannot cluster completely pops of Palestine with pops of the Lebanon, neighbours however -
    So, too much unknown elements for me in this question concerning the depictation of Jesus; this post is just to try to show the numerous obstacles I see here.

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    Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly related to the males of the Levant but Ashkenazi females carry mostly MTDNA from Greeks/Italians.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0509003653.htm

    Ashkenazi males are more related to Palestinians than European males:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...enetic_studies

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly related to the males of the Levant but Ashkenazi females carry mostly MTDNA from Greeks/Italians.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0509003653.htm

    Ashkenazi males are more related to Palestinians than European males:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...enetic_studies
    Nobody knows much about the mtDNA really, anybody claiming they can pinpoint it beyond broad regions is a liar. The Y DNA is about 90% Middle Eastern though, which would suggest European-like admixture on the female side, but when that took place and with what population is mostly unknown (other than that population must have not had much WHG, so it can't have been modern "Whites", and that combined with Ashkenazi pigmentation puts a Southern European origin of Ashkenazi "European-ness" very much into question). Personally, I think a Kura-Araxes source of this Euro-ness is most likely, and that Jews managed to preserve this ancestry well. Alternatively, it could be down to the Philistines, however I'd expect them to have significant WHG if they were ultimately Beaker-derived.

    I love this example, so consider Ramses II and his red hair and pale skin (and much older Ancient Egyptians too, but he is best preserved). Where could that have come from, admixture with modern Europeans? What about King David, surely the most significant probably at least partly real figure in Jewish mythology, who was a redhead? And the plenty of other redheaded folk in the Bible - of course, they all looked Palestinian, I mean it's obviously hair dye right? These redheads described probably looked like this fellow, look how strong he is in his swarthiness, how brave! Having pale skin is oppressive. And forget about that Chalcolithic study that showed pale skin and blue eyes in the Middle East, the Middle East has always been brown and only dumb Nazi White supremacists claim otherwise, especially the "Nordicists [who edit the Wikipedia pages]" *ahem Angela*.


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    Ancient Jewish MTDNA from the 1st Century results:
    From the Tomb of the Shroud in Jerusalem:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0008319

    Results:


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    Lol. The average Palestinian does not look like your pic.


    As for Ramesess 2, he had light skin and red hair in his youth.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II#Mummy

    So where did ancient Egyptians originate? From the Middle East of course. Just about every last Haplogroup taken from Egyptian mummies originated in the Middle East. According to the DNA taken from the Abusir el Meleq mummies, they had light skin, dark hair and eyes:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

    In fact, ancient Egyptians would have resembled the pic of Palestinians I put up. Modern Jewish groups are related to Palestinians and other peoples of Israel, like the Samaritans.

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    As for red hair and blue eyes amongst Jews. THERE ARE PLENTY OF INDIGENOUS MIDDLE EASTERN PEOPLE WHO HAVE RED AND BLONDE HAIR. They are NOT Europeans:
    Palestinians:

    Syrians:


    Yazidi:

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