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Thread: Is Germanic closer to Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic languages?

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    Germanic is closer to Italo-Celtic than Indo-Iranian because Germanic and Italo-Celtic are both European whereas Indo-Iranian is originally Central Asian the geography doesn't lie

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    No sensible person living in this reality is ever going to accept your theory, Cyrus, that prehistoric aryans from Iran spoke proto-germanic, and migrated to northern europe to later become the vikings - or what ever it is that your fantasy is (nazi much?)

    Why? because it's not corroberated by archeological, linguistic or genetic data - of cause, unless your wishfully distort it in a biased manner to always "proove" what you want to be true. Actually, genetics tells us about an opposite movement back to the steppes and ultimately to Iran. You can find and read the papers yourself.

    Amateur linguistics doesn't prove anything. It's easy to find find false connections between all languages - even between languages that aren't related, like the indo-european languages obviously are.

    I know I'm wasting my time, because you are not here to learn. You're obviously only here to push your agenda, and when people don't agree with your fabulous linguistic skills and crazy theories, you call them racist and biased for not buying into wild undfounded speculation.

    Speculation is fine, but not when it's stubbornly pushed with an obvious agenda, and anything anybody says is just ignored.

    Like all the other kids, you just want to be the center of a great and glorious past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
    No sensible person living in this reality is ever going to accept your theory, Cyrus, that prehistoric aryans from Iran spoke proto-germanic, and migrated to northern europe to later become the vikings - or what ever it is that your fantasy is (nazi much?)

    Why? because it's not corroberated by archeological, linguistic or genetic data - of cause, unless your wishfully distort it in a biased manner to always "proove" what you want to be true. Actually, genetics tells us about an opposite movement back to the steppes and ultimately to Iran. You can find and read the papers yourself.

    Amateur linguistics doesn't prove anything. It's easy to find find false connections between all languages - even between languages that aren't related, like the indo-european languages obviously are.

    I know I'm wasting my time, because you are not here to learn. You're obviously only here to push your agenda, and when people don't agree with your fabulous linguistic skills and crazy theories, you call them racist and biased for not buying into wild undfounded speculation.

    Speculation is fine, but not when it's stubbornly pushed with an obvious agenda, and anything anybody says is just ignored.

    Like all the other kids, you just want to be the center of a great and glorious past.
    Aryans from Iran?!! It is similar to saying "Turks from Turkey who spoke proto-Turkic migrated to Central Asia!"
    Please look this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...n-Civilization

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    Did you know that soap was invented by the Germanic people in 2800 BC?
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/soap#etymonline_v_23803
    Old English sape "soap, salve" (originally a reddish hair dye used by Germanic warriors to give a frightening appearance), from Proto-Germanic *saipon "dripping thing, resin"
    Akkadian words for "to bath" and "dyer" had the same origin, there are similar words in Arabic, Hebrew and other Semitic languages too.

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    Did you know that up to 120 years ago they made soap from Whale's blubber?

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    The story is set in Armenia. Bee (Bijan) and Wolf (Gorgin), two heroes of the Gutians, come to the aid of Hratchia, the king of the Armenians, whose mead hall in Ararat has been under attack by boars. ... (Hratchia was the grandson of Skayordi, the first king of Armenia: https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang...ncient+armenia)

    Now, please answer this question:
    https://www.enotes.com/homework-help...mething-364516

    In Beowulf, the boar's head on the helmet of Beowulf and his men stood for what?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Germanic is closer to Italo-Celtic than Indo-Iranian because Germanic and Italo-Celtic are both European whereas Indo-Iranian is originally Central Asian the geography doesn't lie
    and so, Russian language is closer to Altaic languages than to other European languages? Or western Russian is very different from eastern Russian language? Or Romanian is closer to Greek or Bulgarian than to Italian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Did you know that soap was invented by the Germanic people in 2800 BC?
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/soap#etymonline_v_23803
    Old English sape "soap, salve" (originally a reddish hair dye used by Germanic warriors to give a frightening appearance), from Proto-Germanic *saipon "dripping thing, resin"
    Akkadian words for "to bath" and "dyer" had the same origin, there are similar words in Arabic, Hebrew and other Semitic languages too.
    This etymology is maybe good, I don't know. It has been said that Latin loaned the word from Celtic (Gaulish).
    For I red, it was Gauls who dyed their head hair or rather bleashed it with this mixture, and to make a sort of hair gel to "custom" their hair, not the Germanics. I suppose a proto-Germanic with *saip- would have given something in **saif-; it seems to me it was a loan by Germanics from Celtic people, but who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    This etymology is maybe good, I don't know. It has been said that Latin loaned the word from Celtic (Gaulish).
    For I red, it was Gauls who dyed their head hair or rather bleashed it with this mixture, and to make a sort of hair gel to "custom" their hair, not the Germanics. I suppose a proto-Germanic with *saip- would have given something in **saif-; it seems to me it was a loan by Germanics from Celtic people, but who knows?
    Of course this path is also possible: Germanic > Akkadian > Phoenician > Gaulish > Latin

    http://www.stcyril.com/jrhigh/CianaG/soapyhistory.html


    • The earliest known records of soap are from 600 BC, when, according to Pliny the Elder, Phoenicians made it from goat's tallow and wood ashes. They sometimes also used soap as an article to trade and barter with the Gauls.
    • In the Roman Empire, soap was very popular. However, it is unknown whether the Romans learned how to make soap from the Mediterranean peoples or from the Celts (from Britannia)


    You probably know that Phoenicia means "land of the red dye merchants" in Greek.


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    Beowulf = Bee (Bijan) and Wolf (Gorgin), Gutian generals of Kei Chosro (Cyaxares) in Shahnameh.

    Scyld (Skjǫld) = Skayordi, king of Armenia (629-615 BC)
    Hrothgar = Hratchia, king of Armenia (590 -585 BC)

    But who was Kei Chosro (Cyaxares), king of Media (625-585 BC)?

    He was Amleth (Hamlet): https://theodora.com/encyclopedia/h/hamlet.html "Dr. O. L. Jiriczek first pointed out the striking similarities existing between the story of Amleth in Saxo and the other northern versions, and that of Kei Chosro in the Shahnameh (Book of the King) of the Persian poet Firdausi. The comparison was carried farther by R. Zenker (Boeve Amlethus, pp. 207-268, Berlin and Leipzig, 1904), who even concluded that the northern saga rested on an earlier version of Firdausi's story, in which indeed nearly all the individual elements of the various northern versions areto be found."

    But this story doesn't exist in Shahnameh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amleth "Amleth arrived in time for a funeral feast, held to celebrate his supposed death. During the feast he plied the courtiers with wine, and executed his vengeance during their drunken sleep by fastening down over them the woolen hangings of the hall with pegs he had sharpened during his feigned madness, and then setting fire to the palace. He slew Feng with his own sword."

    Herodotus says it: http://www.livius.org/articles/person/cyaxares/: "At last Cyaxares and the Medes invited the greater number of the Scythians to a banquet, at which they made them drunk and murdered them, and in this way recovered their former power and dominion."

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    I have searched, just for curiosity, on inet, a course of Scottish Gaelic:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/foghlam/be...units/unit_01/
    My simple opinion, that did not had too much research behind it, is that Scottish Gaelic is between pure Romance languages and Germanic languages.
    The pure Romance languages is Italian :) .
    French is Galo-Romance, Romanian got some Slavic influence and also words from German (1.5% of the words of Romanian are of West German origins) and Spanish got also Germanic influence.
    So, I think Germanic is close to Gaelic languages like Scottish Gaelic. This being the answer to OP question.
    And Gaelic Scottish seems to be between Romance and German, as an IE language.

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    "Phoenicia" meaning? Yes I knew.
    concerning 'sap-'* I have no certainty, of course.
    a Germanic >> Akkadian >> Phoenician journey for this root seems to me very far fetched...
    But concerning hue or colour, I think the result of the use of this kind of soap was rather a greyish or dirty blondish colour, not red, for I know.

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    Ask Taranis to come here and he will further explain you about the relation between German and Celtic languages.
    Indo Iranian languages should be closer to Slavic and Balto-Slavic languages.
    I think that from the current European languages, Latvian or Lithuanian is most close to IndoIranian languages.
    So from my point of view, Germanic languages are closer to Celtic languages, than to IndoIranian languages.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    to weight the proximity/distance of languages is not so easy, it depends on what you position first: lexicon, structure/syntax, morphology and so on... I found what I consider as evident traces of neo-Celtic syntax in English as well as in Portuguese, spite they are "Germanic" and "Romance". For lexicon, we find everytime a mix of IE cognates and more or less recent so more or less evolved loanwords. Even syntax can be mixed. Anciently close languages can exchange during some time still after separation at the colloquial level, so not only isolated words. This explains the difficulty to elaborate a reliable glottochronology. We can suppose either a proto-satem dialect converging strongly with centum dialect or a proto-satem dialect substratum overrun by a centum one (born by Y-R1b-U106 clans?).
    But I prefer the substratum hypothesis to the convergence one.
    well achieved Germanic was of course closer to Celtic and Italic than to Indo-Iranic; this doen't exclude an ancient layer of satemic traits.
    Taranis could give us his thoughts? (Maybe he got tired by these discussions?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I am studying and researching linguistics about 10 year, I created this chart some years ago:



    What do you think about it?
    I want to say something about Greek, not necessarily important for what you are trying to say. The sounds ph, th, kh do not survive in any modern Greek dialect. If they were supposedly 'murmured stops', we are talking about sounds uncommon in Europe and even Iran. That reconstruction is based on misinterpreting Greek sources.

    That 'zd', written as Z, results from d+j, see Zeus from Djeus. It was likely pronounced /z/ already in Attic (Aristotle says it wasn't a real double consonant), originally probably close to /dz/.

    The sounds that underwent spirantization as you call it can be reconstructed as p:, t:, k:, those could have been pronounced like English aspirated stops

    while the 'voiced aspirates' were simple stops p, t, k. In Latin there was the tendency to shift to fricatives f, θ, x which could become voiced intervocalically.

    That's what happened in Greek too (shift to f, θ, x), there were no 'aspirates' or 'murmured stops'. That is an innovation of the Indic branch.

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    at least doesnt sound like...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I imagine very much the same thing : a non-IE substratum + a CWC (probably satem) layer + a centum superstratum. The non-IE substratum could have something to do with the Scandinavian I1 haplogroup (?). CWC were 70.5% R1a (Maciamo's figures) - enough for a link with Balto-Slavic languages. The centum-speakers would have been R1b-U106 (probably not BB proper though).

    R1b-U106 might have been coming from the Elp Culture. The one from the Netherlands from Tuithoorn, from Olalde's BB paper, was from the Hoogkarspel Culture, generally considered part of the Elp culture.

    And Guus Kroonen considers *two* non-IE substrata in PGM: Farmer and a HG one. HG related cultures such as Vlaardingen and Blätterhöhle remained active until late in the Middle Neolithic, sometimes up until the onset of BB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to weight the proximity/distance of languages is not so easy, it depends on what you position first: lexicon, structure/syntax, morphology and so on... I found what I consider as evident traces of neo-Celtic syntax in English as well as in Portuguese, spite they are "Germanic" and "Romance". For lexicon, we find everytime a mix of IE cognates and more or less recent so more or less evolved loanwords. Even syntax can be mixed. Anciently close languages can exchange during some time still after separation at the colloquial level, so not only isolated words. This explains the difficulty to elaborate a reliable glottochronology. We can suppose either a proto-satem dialect converging strongly with centum dialect or a proto-satem dialect substratum overrun by a centum one (born by Y-R1b-U106 clans?).
    But I prefer the substratum hypothesis to the convergence one.
    well achieved Germanic was of course closer to Celtic and Italic than to Indo-Iranic; this doen't exclude an ancient layer of satemic traits.
    Taranis could give us his thoughts? (Maybe he got tired by these discussions?)
    English have very present the sound they call schwa, as in a cup of tea.

    The other two languages that have this sound very present are Romanian and Albanian.
    What I am saying is that this schwa sound is a remnant sound from some old Keltic and other languages from the meta Keltic-Italic group.
    And that Thracians and Dacians were also part of Celto-Italic group of people,a separate ethnicity in this very large group of languages and people.

    Romanians score 7-20% Welsh/English (seems) Celtic admixture. Most people insist that Romanian is coming from Latin.
    However, there is common sense that the group of Celto-Italic languages exist and also, the Celto-Italic people exist.
    (Celts and Gauls are same group of ethnicities).
    Is known that Dacians were neither Romans/Italic and neither part of Celtic people, but we can suppose that Thracians and Dacians were an ethnicity that was between Italic and Celtic ethnicities, as language.
    We have few words that are close to old Celtic languages, most weird being how Romanians call a dog "cutzu".This is a folk word,quite old.
    This is a clear cognate to ku/cu the protoKeltic word for dog.
    Also we Romanians are calling big,great mare - this is more likely cognate to mor from Keltic languages, than with Latin magnum.
    Another fun thing, I understand old French language was calling raven corb and Old Gaelic Scottish was corbie.
    Romanians raven word is corb. Supposed to come from corvus, from Latin.

    Another strange thing about Romanian language is that we have at least some words with the sound z which is same with the th from English.Italians, Slavs do not have such a sound in their languages, or they have but extremely rare.
    Italians,Slavs and Germanics, except the English people, do not have schwa in their languages too often. Italians,at all,Germanics,do not have, Slavs have but is very rare. While in Romanian the schwa is very present.
    Maybe is a remnant from old Dacian language,that was between Celtic languages and Italic languages?



    Ethnicities were not defined by the paternal lines, but by their maternal language. Because Romanians do not have R1B-U152, R1B-L21 R1B-DF27 and other typical Celto-Italic paternal lines.
    We have some R1B-S21, lol.

    I think that if we take Old English,they barely had any Schwa in it.
    Old French, which was the language that was spoken by Norman elite, that came to England, barely have any schwa also.
    How is possible that English language have so much Schwa in it, if it is not from the native Welsh/so called English people?
    (English people is a false name, from the tribe of Denmark that ruled the Saxon-Celtic people of England.
    Old Saxons, that came in Romania, from Saxonia,in 1200 AD, are scoring almost identical to Republic of Ireland people on autosomal DNA testing.
    These look to me as Germanized Kelts, not as Germans,the Saxons.)
    No idea if the Breton Celts were very close to Welsh Celts, because it seems that the old Kelts from England land were very close if not identical to Welsh Celts.
    I am supposing Breton Celts are rather more close Irish and Scottish Celts,but who knows.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    @Mihaizateo
    The schwa is not typical of only two or three languages it's frequent among the germanic languages, the most of celtic languages, even in Oil French and also in a few romance dialects. For the most it is linked to unstressed vowells. In some indian dialects it exists too, here I don't know if it's always linked to unstressed vowels, but seemingly at least to short vowels.
    The sharing of some rare cognates of PIE in today remote languages does not prove the languages where we find them have had closer ties in past than others. It's ture someones are funny, as "father" > > tad in Brittonics and tat in Romanian, or "mother": mam in both groups. But I think these alternative words for "father" and "mother" have been common enough as 'tata', 'daddy' and 'mama', 'mum' give us to believe; the today lexicon of IE languages conceals a bit the more ancient lexical situation because some cognate words have been lost and replaced.
    Concerning Dacian and Thracian, it seems they were already well satemized and with my current knowledge I don't see any reason to see evident close links with Celtic and Italic.
    +
    I was not aware Romanian had a 'th' sound! the today Z- (/z/?) in words, coming from D- are maybe ancient /dz/ < < /dj/ because they seem occurring before the vowel I only?
    ATW the convergence of certain sounds in diverse families of languages are not the proof of direct genetical links (linguistically speaking) - and Old French had 'schwa' too as modern French has, I think, the orthograph does not give strict clues upon phonetic changes dates because it changes always later than pronounciation -
    Celtic Breton is by far closer to Welsh than to Celtic irish or Gaelic.
    So called "Saxons" of Romania were not from German Saxony but from more southern regions of Germany. (so in some way, they were really a mix of Celts and Germans, without speakng of predeccessors.

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    Well, in old Romanian,you were calling day dzi which written with English, was dthi.
    Now, we put this as zi.
    But we have words where Z does not comes before I, as for example, varza - write with the English way - vartha - the last a of varza is a schwa.
    Varza is supposed to come from Dacian.
    We also have barza - bartha - last a is also a schwa.
    Barza is storck and is almost identical to Albanian word for white - bardh.
    Albanians are pronouncing dh az the English th - Romanian Z.
    For sure Dacians and Celts lived together, because there are plenty of archaeological discoveries with Celtic artefacts in Romania.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @mihaitzateo
    I 'm not romanian speaking, only I have some booklets at hand, and my old brain.
    Can you affirm me the written 'Z' in Romanian is pronounced in IPA as english 'th', voiced ('dh') or unvoiced? I was not aware of this, if true. It's true sometimes the palatalized 'ty' and 'dy' ([tch>ts]/[dj>dz]) can go until a 'th' and 'dh' on the model of english: look at castillan. But in Romanian?

    for your 'barza' I found this:
    barză



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    Romanian[edit]

    Alternative forms[edit]


    Etymology[edit]

    Compare Aromanianbardzu (“white (of horses and mules)”): both it and the Romanian word may derive from Albanianbardhë (“white”), or are akin to it. Alternatively, the Romanian word may derive from a pre-Roman substrate of the Balkans, possibly from or via Dacian, from Proto-Indo-European*bhereg- (“white”).
    Another theory, though somewhat unlikely, suggests that its origin is a Vulgar Latin root *gardea, from Latinardea (compare Spanishgarza (“heron”), Portuguesegarça, also Frenchbarge (“godwit”)). The confusion of g and b is somewhat unusual, but may be explained as a Balkan influence. Other cases in Romanian include limbă, rug, negură, întreba (compare also Sardinianbula, from Latingula) [1].
    A third proposal is borrowing from a Dacian word meaning "stork", derived from a Proto-Indo-European root *sr̥ǵos, also reflected in e.g. Englishstork, Ancient Greekπελαργός(pelargós).[2]



    I prefer the first explanation, by very far: but not come directly from Albanian, in my opinion; rather born by 'bardza', from whom could derive and albanian 'bardh' and romanian 'barzä' ('ä' for your atone 'a'); I suppose a possible previous palatalized form in °°'bargja', without any solid ground it's true. According to Taranis the 'th' and 'dh' in Albanian came often from palatalized velar occlusives, if I don't mistake.
    Celts in contact with Dacians or Thracians: yes. at late stage of prehistory, but it does not implies they were akin or close one together

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    answer to myself - I wrote:
    >>@mihaitzateo
    I 'm not romanian speaking, only I have some booklets at hand, and my old brain.
    Can you affirm me the written 'Z' in Romanian is pronounced in IPA as english 'th', voiced ('dh') or unvoiced? I was not aware of this, if true. It's true sometimes the palatalized 'ty' and 'dy' ([tch>ts]/[dj>dz]) can go until a 'th' and 'dh' on the model of english: look at castillan. But in Romanian?


    I was not clear: I meant 'th' and 'dh' pronounced as the english written 'th' - not to say that these sounds in English have the same origin (= palatalized 'ty' and 'dy') at all! In English they come from pure (P)IE 't' and 'd' -

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    @Moesan: I will search a little and reply to your questions via private messages.
    I do not want to hijack the thread with off-topic conversation.

    Now back on the topic:
    http://www.gaeltacht.info/files/3-cu...ections-EN.pdf
    Think is quite clear that Gaelic languages of British and Irish Celts are closer to West German than to Indo-Iranian.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is good mention that we see Germanic sound shifts in loanwords from other languages too but these are languages which were spoken in the Middle East, some examples from Semitic:

    Semitic root q-n-b "hemp" > proto-Germanic *xanapiz (k>x & b>p) "hemp", compare Arabic qannab and Greek κάνναβις (kánnabos), probably from Sumerian kunibu "hemp".

    Semitic root kʷ-l-b "dog, puppy" > Proto-Germanic *xʷelpaz "whelp, puppy" (kʷ>xʷ & b>p), compare Ethiopian kʷähila and Arabic kalb

    Semitic root s-r/l-p "silver" > proto-Germanic *silubra "silver" (p>b (Verner's law)), compare Akkadian sarpu and Arabic sarif "silver". (p>f in Arabic)

    Semitic root ṣ-b-r "sparrow" > proto-Germanic *sparwo "sparrow" (b>p), compare Akkadian ṣibaru "sparrow"

    Semitic root g-l-d "clot" > proto-Germanic *klutto "clot" (g>k & d>t), compare Hebrew root ג ל ד (g-l-d) and Arabic root ج ل ط (j-l-t).

    Semitic root k-r-y "hire" > proto-Germanic *xuriyo "hire" (k>x), compare Arabic kiraya "hire, rent"

    Semitic root k-l-l "whole" > proto-Germanic *xailo "whole" (k>x), compare Akkadian kalu "whole"

    Semitic root d-r-g "track" > proto-Germanic *trako "track" (d>t & g>k), compare Akkadian daraggu "path, track"

    Semitic root p-r-q "fright" > proto-Germanic *furxtaz "fright" (p>f & k>x), compare Arabic fariqa "fright"

    Semtic root p-r-h "happy" > proto-Germanic *frawaz "happy" (p>f), compare Arabic farah "glad, happy, merry" and German froh and English frolic
    I do not think that mass comparison by similarity, eventually finding a handful of similar words, is enough to make a hypothesis of close connection between the two language branches (geographical, I presume, because you certainly wouldn't assume Proto-Germanic was Semitic). The first problem is the method per se, because similarity is not enough to conclude the words are cognates, and in fact it is not rare the in fact too much similarity may be a clue that it's nothing but coincidence, because we'd expect two languages developing independently for 2,000 or 3,000 years to develop words in very different ways, and not remain very similar after millennia of phonetic and morphological developments (e.g. Portuguese igreja, Italian chiesa, Albanian kishë, Basque eliza - and that wanderwort dates to just ~1500 years ago). It's also a bit unlikely that all the loanwords would've kept exactly the same meaning for millennia, even when they refer to abstract concepts (and not culturally made objects) like "hire" or "fright".

    Additionally, if Proto-Germanic really did borrow those words from a Semitic language, it wouldn't have borrowed the Semitic triconsonantal root, but the exact word as it was used in a given Semitic language. What language would that have been, and how would those words have sounded like in them when they were supposedly borrowed by Pre-Proto-Germanic (certainly not Proto-Germanic, since these words show sound changes that are assumed to have happened much earlier). Some of the sampled words, in my opinion, do not look very convincing, for example:
    1) *xailo vs. kalu (where would the "i" have come from? Sounds like superficially similar words, but not exactly cognates);
    2) *klutto x g-l-d (where would the geminated [t:] have come from? Again, no obvious explanation directly coming from the Semitic words);
    3) *xuriyo vs. kiraya / k-r-y (the actual Proto-Germanic root I have found in etymological sources for "hire" was *hurjan, *hurja-, much less similar to kiraya);
    4) *sparwo x sibaru (the actual Proto-Germanic was probably *sparwan and looks really similar to other *sper-/spor- names of birds in other Indo-European languages, indicating, according to some linguists, a kind of "small bird": spergoulos in Greek, frau in Cornish, spurglis in Baltic Prussian)
    5) furxtaz vs. fariqa: not really similar beyond a superficial resemblance, unless the specific realization of the Semitic prq Pre-PGM took the word from was very different from the C-v-C-v-C-v used in Arabic. Besides, if *frawaz, *trako and *sparwo- are ineed an indication of the sound changes operated in the transfer from Semitic to Pre-PGM, then the unstressed first syllable was frequently dropped, so why woulda form similar to fariqa - penultimate stress - yield *furxtaz dropping the stressed second syllable and not something like frixaz or, if this intrusive [t] meant something like a suffix, frixtaz or whatever? All in all, the correspondences look really vague)

    Of course, though, Proto-Semitic or Early Semitic languages' borrowings are not totally unexpected in Indo-European languages, because even PIE itself is assumed to have had some Semitic loanwords, and the Semitic-speaking "world" was very influential during the Bronze Age when IE primary branches were just starting to develop. But, still, I doubt all those eerily similar words are true borrowings, and if some of them are still proven to be cognates, that is still a pretty minor corpus of loanwords to support a very sweeping and mostly unsubstantiated claim (especially considering genetics, but also linguistics, unless we're expected to believe the pre-PGM population remained totally isolated from their Middle Eastern neighbors, and they would've adapted their language pretty soon to the cold temperate climate of Scandinavia, not to mention the huge non-IE substrate in Proto-Germanic that looks, at the face of it, nothing like Semitic, Elamite, Hurrian or other known languages of that region - though, of course, one could argue we know very little or nothing about most pre-Iranian languages of the Iranian Plateau).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @mihaitzateo
    I 'm not romanian speaking, only I have some booklets at hand, and my old brain.
    Can you affirm me the written 'Z' in Romanian is pronounced in IPA as english 'th', voiced ('dh') or unvoiced? I was not aware of this, if true. It's true sometimes the palatalized 'ty' and 'dy' ([tch>ts]/[dj>dz]) can go until a 'th' and 'dh' on the model of english: look at castillan. But in Romanian?
    for your 'barza' I found this:
    barză


    Jump to navigationJump to search
    Contents


    Romanian[edit]

    Alternative forms[edit]


    Etymology[edit]

    Compare Aromanianbardzu (“white (of horses and mules)”): both it and the Romanian word may derive from Albanianbardhë (“white”), or are akin to it. Alternatively, the Romanian word may derive from a pre-Roman substrate of the Balkans, possibly from or via Dacian, from Proto-Indo-European*bhereg- (“white”).
    Another theory, though somewhat unlikely, suggests that its origin is a Vulgar Latin root *gardea, from Latinardea (compare Spanishgarza (“heron”), Portuguesegarça, also Frenchbarge (“godwit”)). The confusion of g and b is somewhat unusual, but may be explained as a Balkan influence. Other cases in Romanian include limbă, rug, negură, întreba (compare also Sardinianbula, from Latingula) [1].
    A third proposal is borrowing from a Dacian word meaning "stork", derived from a Proto-Indo-European root *sr̥ǵos, also reflected in e.g. Englishstork, Ancient Greekπελαργός(pelargós).[2]

    I prefer the first explanation, by very far: but not come directly from Albanian, in my opinion; rather born by 'bardza', from whom could derive and albanian 'bardh' and romanian 'barzä' ('ä' for your atone 'a'); I suppose a possible previous palatalized form in °°'bargja', without any solid ground it's true. According to Taranis the 'th' and 'dh' in Albanian came often from palatalized velar occlusives, if I don't mistake.
    Celts in contact with Dacians or Thracians: yes. at late stage of prehistory, but it does not implies they were akin or close one together
    Romanian ...pre Latin was/has origins of a Illyrian-thracian mix ( a branch of Italo-celtic ) ............that dh also appears in current and old venetian
    https://www.omniglot.com/writing/venetian.htm
    .
    so dh is prounced as th ..............my mum origins, is western Veneto and for the number 5 she says thinque , spelt dhinque
    my father origins in central veneto for the number 5 says Sinque ( same spelling ) ( s at start of word is prounced as s , an s in the middle of a word is a zed sound )
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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