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Thread: Is Germanic closer to Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic languages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Romanian ...pre Latin was/has origins of a Illyrian-thracian mix ( a branch of Italo-celtic ) ............that dh also appears in current and old venetian
    https://www.omniglot.com/writing/venetian.htm
    .
    so dh is prounced as th ..............my mum origins, is western Veneto and for the number 5 she says thinque , spelt dhinque
    my father origins in central veneto for the number 5 says Sinque ( same spelling ) ( s at start of word is prounced as s , an s in the middle of a word is a zed sound )
    What's the connection for Romania when it comes to Illyrians/Thracians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    What's the connection for Romania when it comes to Illyrians/Thracians?
    Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    What's the connection for Romania when it comes to Illyrians/Thracians?

    Romanians were Dinaric type until recently, they still are,but they granted asylum to the Balkanic Nordoids of Germanic type ,most notably Serbs and Albanians.


    If ,for Vlad the Impaler ,a southerner remained a southerner,meaning,regardless of his religion, he would still fight for the Turks, things had changed during Michael the Brave,he was a Basarab,from his father and Seytanoglu's nephew, from his mother.



    The Brave was an atipical Wallachian leader,he didn't had that Old Romanian keenness, didn't liked to play 1 against 10,as the men encharged before him,but he had alot of money and more important, a plan,a big one.



    His courage was again uncommonly blindly,he charged Basta's troops without too many preparations, still,the overall achievements were impressive.



    From the records,in 159something, he colonized 15000 Albanians and Bulgarians each to Wallachia and the Serbian hajduks leaded by the revengeful toothless Baba Novac(Starina Novak),in the papers they all looked good,"faithful Christians".



    But the figures are not impressive, a century earlier, Targoviste had more than 40000 people and the very most of citizens lived in the country.



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igli_Tare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)
    Thank you for some reason I clustered in South Romania quite a bit also on my autosomal plotting map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    Romanians were Dinaric type until recently, they still are,but they granted asylum to the Balkanic Nordoids of Germanic type ,most notably Serbs and Albanians.
    If ,for Vlad the Impaler ,a southerner remained a southerner,meaning,regardless of his religion, he would still fight for the Turks, things had changed during Michael the Brave,he was a Basarab,from his father and Seytanoglu's nephew, from his mother.

    The Brave was an atipical Wallachian leader,he didn't had that Old Romanian keenness, didn't liked to play 1 against 10,as the men encharged before him,but he had alot of money and more important, a plan,a big one.

    His courage was again uncommon blindly,he charged Basta's troops without too many preparations, still,the overall achievements were impressive.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igli_Tare
    I saw this video on Youtube recently about them. I don't trust a lot of the things this guy says on his other videos but on this one he's pretty on point.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WoDnwYzBQw

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    http://cf.hum.uva.nl/natlearn/balkan/athens_schuyt.html
    It is very likely that Vlad Tepes had contributed at the creation of haiduk troops,because ,after he was released from the prison ,the Hungarian king send him to Serbia,Bosnia and Dalmatia, to sabotage the Ottomans.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NA34EZACkWY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Romanian ...pre Latin was/has origins of a Illyrian-thracian mix ( a branch of Italo-celtic ) ............that dh also appears in current and old venetian
    https://www.omniglot.com/writing/venetian.htm
    .
    so dh is prounced as th ..............my mum origins, is western Veneto and for the number 5 she says thinque , spelt dhinque
    my father origins in central veneto for the number 5 says Sinque ( same spelling ) ( s at start of word is prounced as s , an s in the middle of a word is a zed sound )
    Honestly where do you get these ideas from? Pre-Latin was an Illyrian-Thracian mix and the latter were a branch of Italo-Celtic? I think those are all very fringe hypotheses strongly rejected by most professional linguists. What is the basis for that claim, that is, apart from the presence of a certain similar phoneme? The /th/ and /s/ in Venetian "cinque", considering that Venetian comes from Vulgar Latin and not from a certain Illyrian-Thracian "Pre-Latin", is much more easily explained by the same phonetic development that happened after the Middle Ages in Castillian dialects of Spain: some turned [ts] (ce, ci, z) into [s], some others into [th].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)
    Considering that P-Celtic is much closer to Q-Celtic ("Continental Celtic" is misleading here, because Brittonic is Insular Celtic, but P-Celtic nonetheless), and and that Osco-Umbrian (*p- is much closer to Latino-Faliscan (*kw-), it's a lot more reasonable to assume that the kw > p change (a very unsurprising and "easy" change, to be honest; it also happened in later IE languages, like Romanian, and earlier in Greek, too) occurred independently after Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic split into different dialects/languages, probably as late as the Iron Age (the fact that Celtic languages with "insular" characteristics vary between "/p/ and /kw/ also suggest that).

    Besides, AFAIK there is virtually no linguistic evidence at all that Italic, Celtic, Illyrian and Thracian were ever part of the same language. Of course early IE languages formed a dialect continuuum without clear-cut boundaries between one and the other, but I have never read any renowned linguist claiming that Thracian or Illyrian bear a much stronger phylogenetic relationship with Italo-Celtic, in fact there are even some linguists who claim the Italo-Celtic branch is a stretch and that an Italo-Celtic language never existed, rather they could've been related languages spoken close to each other and forming a Sprachbund. What are the sources or linguistic evidences you have read presenting the likelihood of a Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian language? Not even genetically (Y-DNA haplogroup distributions, e.g.), that common language seems to make sense in my opinion.

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    I2 is the link between Germanic,Celtic and Thracian people.
    I2-din is not actually Slavic, are assimilated Thracians and East Germanic people, by the Slavs.
    Please search and see that I2 branches that are found only in the British Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Considering that P-Celtic is much closer to Q-Celtic ("Continental Celtic" is misleading here, because Brittonic is Insular Celtic, but P-Celtic nonetheless), and and that Osco-Umbrian (*p- is much closer to Latino-Faliscan (*kw-), it's a lot more reasonable to assume that the kw > p change (a very unsurprising and "easy" change, to be honest; it also happened in later IE languages, like Romanian, and earlier in Greek, too) occurred independently after Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic split into different dialects/languages, probably as late as the Iron Age (the fact that Celtic languages with "insular" characteristics vary between "/p/ and /kw/ also suggest that).
    Besides, AFAIK there is virtually no linguistic evidence at all that Italic, Celtic, Illyrian and Thracian were ever part of the same language. Of course early IE languages formed a dialect continuuum without clear-cut boundaries between one and the other, but I have never read any renowned linguist claiming that Thracian or Illyrian bear a much stronger phylogenetic relationship with Italo-Celtic, in fact there are even some linguists who claim the Italo-Celtic branch is a stretch and that an Italo-Celtic language never existed, rather they could've been related languages spoken close to each other and forming a Sprachbund. What are the sources or linguistic evidences you have read presenting the likelihood of a Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian language? Not even genetically (Y-DNA haplogroup distributions, e.g.), that common language seems to make sense in my opinion.
    These comments of "some linguists claim italo-celtic never existed etc etc" is purely based on people who want to justify their own agenda , which is also delving into "fantasy" land and should be treated equally as suspect .............because they have no proof either
    If Linguists cannot even find PIE
    cannot even recognised that a centum -satem is of little value, as in, "these people cannot be related because one spoke centum and the other satem" .......then what do we place on these linguists

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    @Sile:
    It's the first time i hear of a 'th' (unvoiced dental fricative) in Italian (or Gallo-Italian) dialects! Is this an individual trait (it occurs in every country for /s/), or a very collective dialectal trait?
    For what I understood from Mihaitzateo and what I red in Wiki and language learning books, the S and Z of Romanian are not dental but alveolar fricatives as in French and English S and Z, so not loke Albanian TH and DH;
    I am not in accord with you concerning the qualification of "branch of Italo-Celtic" concerning Illyrian (which?) and Thracian; it seems to me a bit hazardous, no offense.
    But yes, here we are a bit far from the Germanic and Indo-Iranian groups.
    Good evening all the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I2 is the link between Germanic,Celtic and Thracian people.
    I2-din is not actually Slavic, are assimilated Thracians and East Germanic people, by the Slavs.
    Please search and see that I2 branches that are found only in the British Isles.
    I2a-Din, in antiquity, were Bastarnae people (germanic people), which would become Slavicized. Nothing Thrachian in them.

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    I think a link between Celtic and Germanic people is offered by the R1B-M269 large group of paternal lines.
    If you start with Austria,Germany,Netherlands,South Scandinavia (but not Finland) from the countries that are speaking a Germanic language and take the countries that are speaking Romance languages, but clearly have Celtic ancestry, which are Belgium,Italy,France,Iberia,UK and The Republic of Ireland, all have plenty of R1B-M269.
    Sure, the clades are different, but you can find R1B-L21 in Germany at low percentages.
    Another thing, is Switzerland, where are spoken both Germanic and Romance languages, but Switzerland name - Confederation Helvetica shows the fact they are also descending mostly from the Celtic tribes of Helveti.
    Is same in Belgium, where both Romance and Germanic languages are spoken.
    So I think this is another argument that supports the fact that Celtic and Germanic and Romance people had in the past a common language.
    EDIT:
    I excluded Romania from this thread, because anyway, we have Italy with even 75% R1B-M269 in some central areas of Italy, to make things clear, that the Latin speakers were also some R1B-M269.
    As for the theories that R1B-M269 came from actual land that is ruled by Russia, yes, is very obvious, but when R1B-M269 was in Central Asia, Slavs were not in Central Asia, is not even know if Slavs existed in those times, as an ethnicity.
    Central Asia land become a part of Russia in 1500 or so,so no,sorry, there is no early link between Celts and Slavs.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 17-12-18 at 15:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    I2a-Din, in antiquity, were Bastarnae people (germanic people), which would become Slavicized. Nothing Thrachian in them.
    I find your statement inaccurate. There is no way I2a people, my predecessors included, were Germanic. Germanic people are in majority steppe people, and I2a people were natives, meaning they spoke different language and calling themselves, something else rather than Germans. My point of view is I2a people were Germanized, Slavicized, Albanised, as others came in waves

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I2 is the link between Germanic,Celtic and Thracian people.
    I2-din is not actually Slavic, are assimilated Thracians and East Germanic people, by the Slavs.
    Please search and see that I2 branches that are found only in the British/ Isles.
    Are South Slavs really Slavic? What can and should be considered Slavic? East Germanic people are Baltid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I find your statement inaccurate. There is no way I2a people, my predecessors included, were Germanic. Germanic people are in majority steppe people, and I2a people were natives, meaning they spoke different language and calling themselves, something else rather than Germans. My point of view is I2a people were Germanized, Slavicized, Albanised, as others came in waves
    I2 came in Balkans via Megalithic Mesolithic waves. All over Balkans nothing to do with Albanians Serbians Croats Romans or others Megalithic culture is usually in artefacts in the Balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    I2a-Din, in antiquity, were Bastarnae people (germanic people), which would become Slavicized. Nothing Thrachian in them.
    Nothing Thracian/Dacian or Illyrian about being Dinaric those are a type of peoples ( not a sub race )

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I think a link between Celtic and Germanic people is offered by the R1B-M269 large group of paternal lines.
    If you start with Austria,Germany,Netherlands,South Scandinavia (but not Finland) from the countries that are speaking a Germanic language and take the countries that are speaking Romance languages, but clearly have Celtic ancestry, which are Belgium,Italy,France,Iberia,UK and The Republic of Ireland, all have plenty of R1B-M269.
    Sure, the clades are different, but you can find R1B-L21 in Germany at low percentages.
    Another thing, is Switzerland, where are spoken both Germanic and Romance languages, but Switzerland name - Confederation Helvetica shows the fact they are also descending mostly from the Celtic tribes of Helveti.
    Is same in Belgium, where both Romance and Germanic languages are spoken.
    So I think this is another argument that supports the fact that Celtic and Germanic and Romance people had in the past a common language.
    EDIT:
    I excluded Romania from this thread, because anyway, we have Italy with even 75% R1B-M269 in some central areas of Italy, to make things clear, that the Latin speakers were also some R1B-M269.
    As for the theories that R1B-M269 came from actual land that is ruled by Russia, yes, is very obvious, but when R1B-M269 was in Central Asia, Slavs were not in Central Asia, is not even know if Slavs existed in those times, as an ethnicity.
    Central Asia land become a part of Russia in 1500 or so,so no,sorry, there is no early link between Celts and Slavs.
    Slavs - R1a-Z280 (mainly) + I2a and R1a-M458 (after separation from Balto-Slavic into proto-Slavic)
    Balts (Letto-Lithuanians) - They were Z280 as well before they migrated from the forest zones of Russia toward Baltic Sea. When they migrated there, they adopted N1c.
    Prussians - not still known. Althought they are some indicators that they were also rich with N1c and R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    I2 came in Balkans via Megalithic Mesolithic waves. All over Balkans nothing to do with Albanians Serbians Croats Romans or others Megalithic culture is usually in artefacts in the Balkans
    I agree with you! The person I was debating thought some were Germanic's( some I2a people) and become slavisized

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I find your statement inaccurate. There is no way I2a people, my predecessors included, were Germanic. Germanic people are in majority steppe people, and I2a people were natives, meaning they spoke different language and calling themselves, something else rather than Germans. My point of view is I2a people were Germanized, Slavicized, Albanised, as others came in waves
    The man was clearly talking about ethnicities from historic times (say, the last 2000 years), roughly contemporaneous with the Proto-Slavic people, and not about the ultimate origin of these haplogroups (whose carriers by the way were certainly autosomally very different 1500 years ago than they were 10,000 years ago, but Y-DNA haplogroups alone won't show you that change). Also, I2a-Din is more recent than the Indo-Europeanization of most of Central & Northern Europe, so its first carriers, those who carried that specific subclade, were probably already Indo-Europeanized people coming from natives who lived millennia earlier and had already mixed heavily with Anatolian farmers and later mixed again with steppe people. By the time Germanic, Slavic, Albanian and other languages existed in any recognizable form, I2a people were certainly not natives speaking indigenous Mesolithic European languages anymore. You certainly know that ethnic identities, cultures and ancestral DNA makeups come and go, change and change again, but Y-DNA haplogroups may still be the same (especially if you only consider their upstream classification, like I2a).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    Slavs - R1a-Z280 (mainly) + I2a and R1a-M458 (after separation from Balto-Slavic into proto-Slavic)
    Balts (Letto-Lithuanians) - They were Z280 as well before they migrated from the forest zones of Russia toward Baltic Sea. When they migrated there, they adopted N1c.
    Prussians - not still known. Althought they are some indicators that they were also rich with N1c and R1a.
    Proto-Celto-Italic-Germanic people did not live in the forests of current land of Russia, they were living in the steppes of Russia.
    It seems they were herding cows and sheep, as traditional occupations for making a living.
    You cannot herd sheep and cows in the woods,but you can herd sheep and cows very well in the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I2 is the link between Germanic,Celtic and Thracian people.
    I2-din is not actually Slavic, are assimilated Thracians and East Germanic people, by the Slavs.
    Please search and see that I2 branches that are found only in the British Isles.
    what are you chewing here? Y-I2 is very ancient, and even splitted in subclades , it's very widely spred in complicated ways and it doesn't give us any evident clue concerning important migrations and origins of mdern languages, IMO.

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    Ethnic group
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    and iberian alfabet....

  24. #74
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    I think pre-proto-Germanic was very close at first to Celto-Italic; (global structure and centum aspect) but I suspect ttat at the proto-Germanic stage it had already been in contact with proto-Balto-Slavic languages and even another earlier satem one (Corded?), what influenced maybe more its lexicon than it structure. All amateur bets, for now.

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    Rapid radiation of the Inner Indo-European languages: an advanced approach to IndoEuropean lexicostatistics

    Alexei S. Kassian,1,2 † Mikhail Zhivlov,3,4 George Starostin,3,4,5 Artem A. Trofimov,2 Petr A. Kocharov,6,7 Anna Kuritsyna,3 Mikhail N. Saenko 8 1

    Two methods produce dated trees: StarlingNJ (strict dates) and Bayesian MCMC (95% highest probability density for the divergence times and the mean dates of divergence). The difference is summarized in Table 2. For the Bayesian method we refer to the tree based on the proper IE dataset (its dates differ only slightly from those of the IE-Samoyed tree).

    Table 2. Discrepancies in dates obtained for the Stage-2 derivational drift-free dataset (wind ≠ veter, agni = ignis). 95% HPD and mean for Bayesian MCMC, strict dates for StarlingNJ. See Fig. 1 for the tree representation. Bayesian MCMC (Fig. S2c) StarlingNJ (Fig. S1c–d) Anatolian split-off (root) 4314–3450 BC (mean 3747 BC) 5080 BC Tocharian split-off 3821–2099 BC (mean 2974 BC) 4700 BC Inner IE break-up 3572–2145 BC (mean 2802 BC) 4100 BC Greek-Armenian break-up 2747–1264 BC (mean 1986 BC) 3460 BC Italic-Germanic-Celtic break-up 2825–1443 BC (mean 2128 BC) 3500 BC Insular Celtic break-up 605 BC – 138 AD (mean 217 BC) 1500 BC Balto-Slavic–Indo-Iranian break-up 2933–1847 BC (mean 2366 BC) 3570 BC

    This study tries to set that Celtic-Italic-Germanic were in the same "boat" and separated between around 2128 BC (mean) and 3500 BC according to the method choosen.

    I have not read the entire paper but I 'll try to do it.

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