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Thread: Violence and the Neanderthals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    China seems to think the old fashioned combination of punishment and reward works, and not just to tame the chimpanzee within.

    See:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...by-end-of-2020

    "China’s plan to judge each of its 1.3 billion people based on their social behavior is moving a step closer to reality, with Beijing set to adopt a lifelong points program by 2021 that assigns personalized ratings for each resident.

    The capital city will pool data from several departments to reward and punish some 22 million citizens based on their actions and reputations by the end of 2020, according to a plan posted on the Beijing municipal government’s website on Monday. Those with better so-called social credit will get “green channel” benefits while those who violate laws will find life more difficult.

    The final version of China’s national social credit system remains uncertain. But as rules forcing social networks and internet providers to remove anonymity get increasingly enforced and facial recognition systems become more popular with policing bodies, authorities are likely to find everyone from internet dissenters to train-fare skippers easier to catch -- and punish -- than ever before."

    "Hangzhou rolled out its personal credit system earlier this year, rewarding “pro-social behaviors” such as volunteer work and blood donations while punishing those who violate traffic laws and charge under-the-table fees. By the end of May, people with bad credit in China have been blocked from booking more than 11 million flights and 4 million high-speed train trips, according to the National Development and Reform Commission.

    According to the Beijing government’s plan, different agencies will link databases to get a more detailed picture of every resident’s interactions across a swathe of services. The proposal calls for agencies including tourism bodies, business regulators and transit authorities to work together."

    You can't even get phone access without a government ID.


    this is stupid
    I agree selfdiscipline and resistence to temptation are necessary

    but don't ignore the chimpanzee within

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    The Chinese are adherents of Pavlovian conditioning (or "brainwashing"), not Freudian/Nietzschean sublimation. Can it work? Sure - absolutist tyrannies exist - but for how long and at what price? The Chinese are betting not just on the power of technology, but also on the technology of power (abetted by Google/Frontpage/Amazon), to create a system of automatic (self-enforcing) social controls (punishments and rewards). Condition the dog and the chimp will follow. Eventually, with enough repetitions, neither electric prods (punishments) nor treats (rewards) will be necessary - just ring the bell.

    What is the "ascetic ideal" in Nietzsche, if not the ideal tyranny, or Nihilism, as such?

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    I really have nothing to say to an argument that following the principles of Nietzsche is a good idea.

    Pavlovian principles have the benefit of being able to be tested empirically. Nietzsche's ideas, like those of Freud and Jung, are, imo, nicely worded nonsense. They fit very nicely into the reams of material in the social sciences which either can't be proved, or when tested have yielded results which can't be replicated. Nietzsche was quite popular among the Nazis; I'm not aware of their doing much sublimating.


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    And the conversation was just starting to get interesting, if a bit far afield of the original topic. The question is whether an "inner dog" (we are all mammals, a deeper substrate than the primates), when conditioned with cattle prods and the like, can be trusted to not turn on its "master" and bite the hand that feeds it. I'd say no. Nature bites back.

    Chimps, however, will tear your face off...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    And the conversation was just starting to get interesting, if a bit far afield of the original topic. The question is whether an "inner dog" (we are all mammals, a deeper substrate than the primates), when conditioned with cattle prods and the like, can be trusted to not turn on its "master" and bite the hand that feeds it. I'd say no. Nature bites back.

    Chimps, however, will tear your face off...
    Behavior can no doubt be conditioned, to a degree, by pavlovian "mechanical" training (cf A clockwork orange) , or by guilt (cf. 2000 years of moral blackmail by Christian priests). But this is to posit that no man is intelligent enough to really grasp what is at stake, and that he is too spineless to work on himself.

    Man is fallible, for sure. He will stumble and fall many times on the way. But maybe what makes him human is the abilty to look around, understand, and decide to build himself. It may take some guidance in the early stages - which doesn't necessarily involve electric shocks, but then he may choose to train himself, exert his will, strive towards his goal, practice and practice and practice, just like a weightlifter has to lift weights thousands of time before his arms can be seen to change noticeably.

    "They howled and leaped, and spun, and made horrid faces; but what thrilled you was just the thought of their humanity— like yours—the thought of your remote kinship with this wild and passionate uproar. Ugly. Yes, it was ugly enough; but if you were man enough you would admit to yourself that there was in you just the faintest trace of a response to the terrible frankness of that noise, a dim suspicion of there being a meaning in it which you—you so remote from the night of first ages—could comprehend. And why not? The mind of man is capable of anything—because everything is in it, all the past as well as all the future. What was there after all? Joy, fear, sorrow, devotion, valour, rage—who can tell?— but truth—truth stripped of its cloak of time. Let the fool gape and shudder—the man knows, and can look on without a wink. But he must at least be as much of a man as these on the shore. He must meet that truth with his own true stuff— with his own inborn strength. Principles won’t do. Acquisitions, clothes, pretty rags—rags that would fly off at the first good shake. No; you want a deliberate belief. An appeal to me in this fiendish row—is there? Very well; I hear; I admit, but I have a voice, too, and for good or evil mine is the speech that cannot be silenced." (Conrad, Heart of Darkness)
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    And the conversation was just starting to get interesting, if a bit far afield of the original topic. The question is whether an "inner dog" (we are all mammals, a deeper substrate than the primates), when conditioned with cattle prods and the like, can be trusted to not turn on its "master" and bite the hand that feeds it. I'd say no. Nature bites back.
    Chimps, however, will tear your face off...
    some dogs never attack in their whole life
    but some are very gentle and nice and can all of a sudden lose controll and turn into a killing monster
    others are bread and educated to attack whoever comes near

    IMO it's the same for humans
    Pavlonian conditioning can work for some time, but there is always the possibility for the subject to all of a sudden derail

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    some dogs never attack in their whole life
    but some are very gentle and nice and can all of a sudden lose controll and turn into a killing monster
    others are bread and educated to attack whoever comes near

    IMO it's the same for humans
    Pavlonian conditioning can work for some time, but there is always the possibility for the subject to all of a sudden derail
    It only works on the relatively "normal", not those with deep seated disorders. Serial killers are one example. Many of them seem to be absolutely "socialized": productive members of society, good husbands, good fathers etc. Yet, it's a role they have taken on in order to hide.

    A very good friend of mine, a psychiatrist, tells me that in his experience and from his study, some children will turn out well almost in any circumstances. It's as if they have their own "compass". Some will be "anti-social" to some degree or another no matter what effort is brought to bear. It's only the ones in the middle who can be helped by good parenting. The difference is genetics.

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    I'd say people like Pythagoras, Sir Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla, Leonardo Da Vinci, Professor Yan Xin etc... are far more deserving of being some of the greatest minds of all-time. I mean what did Nietzche really do beyond write his opinion down on pieces of paper?

    All the great minds and genius' have all been highly spiritual, and many developing a direct connection to the source of consciousness and creativity that many religions call "God".

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It only works on the relatively "normal", not those with deep seated disorders. Serial killers are one example. Many of them seem to be absolutely "socialized": productive members of society, good husbands, good fathers etc. Yet, it's a role they have taken on in order to hide.

    A very good friend of mine, a psychiatrist, tells me that in his experience and from his study, some children will turn out well almost in any circumstances. It's as if they have their own "compass". Some will be "anti-social" to some degree or another no matter what effort is brought to bear. It's only the ones in the middle who can be helped by good parenting. The difference is genetics.
    I think you're over-exaggerating the reach and impact of "mental health" services, which have historically been limited to the rich and well-to-do. Freudian psycho-analysis (the "talking cure") certainly was. We can't assume that treating children before they become "incorrigible" wouldn't have any positive benefit, but only that by the time they are belatedly treated (or, more accurately, "medicated") it is much more likely to be much too little, and much too late.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    I mean what did Nietzche really do beyond write his opinion down on pieces of paper?
    And the others you mentioned didn't? Have you even read a single work by him, from cover to cover? If you had, you should at least know how to spell his name.

    "Almost everything which we call 'higher culture' rests on the spiritualization and intensification of cruelty - that's my claim. That 'wild beast' hasn't been killed at all: it's alive, it's flourishing. Only it has turned itself into - a god." --Beyond Good and Evil, 229.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    And the others you mentioned didn't? Have you even read a single work by him, from cover to cover? If you had, you should at least know how to spell his name.
    The man obviously never had a spiritual experience in his life. But to answer your question; no I haven't read his works. Aristotle, Carl Jung, and Lao Tzu are about the only "mainstream" philosophers I've really read a lot of, Nichomachean Ethics being one of my favourite works, and in my mind, more truthful, and vastly superior to Nietzsche's philosophy.


    Also as to your first question, if you consider discovering music theory, the principles behind musical intervals, pie/phi, countless contributions to mathematics, geometry, philosophy and constructing a profound religious order (Pythagorianism, influence by knowledge from the Egyptian mysteries schools of old, only allowed admittance after a fast of 40 days) as being equal to writing down his opinion on paper then sure.... - Pythagoras

    Nikola Tesla - Hundreds to thousands of inventions, many from spontaneous visions in his mind that were perfectly constructed even in immaterial form, radio-control and radio communication, wireless electricity, three-phase power, neon lighting, induction motor, harnessing AC current and the AC motor, and quite literally creating this modern age of technology we live in now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    The man obviously never had a spiritual experience in his life. But to answer your question; no I haven't read his works. Aristotle, Carl Jung, and Lao Tzu are about the only "mainstream" philosophers I've really read a lot of, Nichomachean Ethics being one of my favourite works, and in my mind, more truthful, and vastly superior to Nietzsche's philosophy.
    As I suspected. Ignorance speaks loudest...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    As I suspected. Ignorance speaks loudest...
    One doesn't have to read entire works of someone to understand their position, and the philosophies they espouse. If you really think that Nietzsche achieved a higher level of greatness and accomplishment than Pythagoras, Tesla or Sir Isaac Newton etc... then I don't know what to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    One doesn't have to read entire works of someone to understand their position, and the philosophies they espouse. If you really think that Nietzsche achieved a higher level of greatness and accomplishment than Pythagoras, Tesla or Sir Isaac Newton etc... then I don't know what to say.
    And I doubt you've read Pythagoras, either, since no extant works of his have survived. Tesla and Newton weren't philosophers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    And I doubt you've read Pythagoras, either, since no extant works of his have survived. Tesla and Newton weren't philosophers.
    We were discussing genius, not philosophers. His teachings survive through the works of his students, ie; the Pythagoreans.

    EDIT: Also, whilst philosophy not being the things they are known-best for, they certainly were philosophers in every true sense. Is it your Neitzchean influence that gives you this apparent attitude problem and confrontational behaviour? Or is it a case that people of those sorts are drawn to Nietzsche's work in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    We were discussing genius, not philosophers. His teachings survive through the works of his students, ie; the Pythagoreans.

    EDIT: Also, whilst philosophy not being the things they are known-best for, they certainly were philosophers in every true sense. Is it your Neitzchean influence that gives you this apparent attitude problem and confrontational behaviour? Or is it a case that people of those sorts are drawn to Nietzsche's work in the first place?
    You're the one making claims based on ignorance. I won't further disturb your "bliss".

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    Humans are just naturally monsters of destruction and death:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...er-destruction

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblob View Post
    Humans are just naturally monsters of destruction and death:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...er-destruction

    I don't believe that personally. Put people in a utopian civilisation/society and I don't think much if any violence or destruction would be present.

    There is no real evidence of warfare/combat/violence between human-beings, or Neanderthals, or "cro-magnon" until the emergence of agriculture and heireichal/fuedal civilisations.

    I think the problem is that many people seem to be very easily conditioned, and their emotions prayed upon by using fear, jealousy, anger etc... to rile people up and set them against each other, in the beliefs that it is for their own betterment, safety, or benefit. Just as religion has been used as a tool that run counter to it's very heart and reason for existence, society has been used as a tool of indoctrination and manipulation that continues to the very day. People hate and insult people who have opposing beliefs, will go to war and kill others who are only following orders the same as they are... This is weakness and infantile behaviour, but not the nature of humanity. Let a man live freely and in peace, and I see no reason to believe there would be any real conflicts beyond those of argument/discussion (well unless huge quantities of alcohol come into the equation).

    Divide and conquer, and setting peoples against each other rather than confronting the true problems in this world is the oldest trick in the book, yet somehow people are still fooled by it.

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    There is also plenty of evidence that humans living in a state type society, had significant violent trends[against brave opposing warriors or ones own innocent defenseless child-depending on time and place]; sometimes to appease nothing more than man made gods.

    Comparing Maya culture-
    A number of methods were employed by the Maya, the most common being decapitation and heart extraction. Additional forms of sacrifice included ritually shooting the victim with arrows, hurling sacrifices into a deep sinkhole, entombing alive to accompany a noble burial, tying the sacrifice into a ball for a ritual reenactment of the Mesoamerican ballgame and disembowelment.
    Levant culture-
    Levant developed quite early we find
    The Levant saw the earliest developments of the Neolithic Revolution from around 10,000 BCE, followed by sites in the wider Fertile Crescent.
    there are accounts of the deliberate termination of a potential human life[ones own first born son/child for example]by passing them into fire to appease a man made god
    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1 "and he made his son pass through fire"

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

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    I think it's absurd to think that violence wasn't present in human groups until the advent of agriculture. As has been pointed out by another poster, we have abundant evidence in the human remains from the Paleolithic and Mesolithic in Europe, for example, showing there was a lot of violence, often of the bash each other on top of the head variety. In fact, it's proportionately more in pre-state societies.

    The only logical deduction from history and pre-history is that humans, particularly humans of the male variety, have always been violent. To some extent, civilization is about trying to control at least intra-society violence, with the exception of state sanctioned ritual violence.

    I just posted a thread about pre-contact Mexican society where a cult existed which practised the ritual flaying of a sacrificial victim and then donning his skin.

    A lot of Biblical scholars believe that the Abraham and Isaac story, where Abraham is told to sacrifice his son but then given a reprieve, was the writers trying to show that God did not sanction human sacrifice, and indeed that was one of the stark distinctions between the beliefs of the early Hebrews and their Canaanite neighbors.

    If the pressure is on, the least socialized will quickly turn to violence. It's only realistic to be aware of that, and not live in some non-existent, Pollyanna fantasy world.

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    To what extent do we believe in ancient historians narrative such as Diodorus; who described cruelty connected to Carthage[organized city]? We know Carthage was connected to Canaanites/Phoenecians. Also our language is English[West Germanic branch]however the script is derived from Phoenecian-Proto-Canaanite[as compared to Egyptian or Sumerian cunieform symbols]. The same script and language was used in the formation of ten commandments on burning bush mountain narrative. The same script/language used to describe male genital mutilation for 99 year old man married to sister/half sister. Same script/language used to describe sharp stone mutilation [Zipporah at the inn]on the way to deliver plagues to Egypt. Coincidentally the same script/language used to carry out [and] record genocide for its oldest known sampled users- Canaanites.
    The Roman historian Diodorus and other ancient historians gave graphic accounts of Carthaginian childsacrifice

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    To what extent do we believe in ancient historians narrative such as Diodorus; who described cruelty connected to Carthage[organized city]? We know Carthage was connected to Canaanites/Phoenecians. Also our language is English[West Germanic branch]however the script is derived from Phoenecian-Proto-Canaanite[as compared to Egyptian or Sumerian cunieform symbols]. The same script and language was used in the formation of ten commandments on burning bush mountain narrative. The same script/language used to describe male genital mutilation for 99 year old man married to sister/half sister. Same script/language used to describe sharp stone mutilation [Zipporah at the inn]on the way to deliver plagues to Egypt. Coincidentally the same script/language used to carry out genocide for its oldest known samples users- Canaanites.
    Now you've lost me. A language now makes you prone to gruesome ritual sacrifice or genocide? So, Germans started three major, horrific wars within one hundred years, and also brought down the Roman Empire with untold loss of life and horrific consequences for culture and intellectual knowledge. Is the Germanic language to blame? Indo-Europeans committed at least some male genocide everywhere they went. Is there some connection to their languages? Of course, they were illiterate. Were the Canaanites and Phoenicians worse because they were literate? I don't think so.

    As for the Carthaginians, they were indeed an offshoot of the Phoenicians, who were an offshoot of the Canaanites, who did indeed practice child sacrifice, as well as ritual prostitution as part of their fertility rites, another practice which the Hebrews detested. (If you haven't ever read it, I would suggest "The Source", by James Michener, which covers a lot of pre-history as well as history of the Middle East in a very entertaining, fictionalized way.)

    (Child sacrifice has a sort of horrific logic to it. If things are terrible, and destruction seems at hand, what do you choose to sacrifice to the gods to get their mercy? Your most precious possession, I guess. A lot of ancient societies turned to it under stress, including my favorites, the Cretans, for example. It's part of our collective unconscious, I suppose you could say, a la Jung. It's even resurrected in modern fantasy fiction, as in Game of Thrones. The Christ story is a re-working, in a way. God so loved mankind that he sacrificed his only begotten son, with the uplifting addition of the fact that he is resurrected. James Campbell writes a lot about the dying hero or King in mythology who saves his people.)

    As to the reality of it all, however, I would take anything written about the Carthaginians by the Romans, and Greeks, for that matter, with a skeptical eye, since they were all rivals for dominance of the Mediterranean, and the Romans, in particular, detested them. One of the funnier bits when you take some Classics courses is Cato starting every speech he gave, including ones about sewers, with "Carthage Must be Destroyed". :) They did also literally sow their fields with salt. That's pretty darn intense.

    I can recommend also "Carthage Must Be Destroyed" by Richard Miles. He quite takes their side in their conflict with Rome imo, which was no stranger to barbaric pursuits itself, btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now you've lost me. A language now makes you prone to gruesome ritual sacrifice or genocide? So, Germans started three major, horrific wars within one hundred years, and also brought down the Roman Empire with untold loss of life and horrific consequences for culture and intellectual knowledge......................Destroyed" by Richard Miles. He quite takes their side in their conflict with Rome imo, which was no stranger to barbaric pursuits itself, btw.
    Some of the above examples[pre Natufian region] are from an area that experienced agricultural revolution 10K+/- yet after 1000's of years of civilization building and fell into the same genocide ways. Under one King who offered his own son to fire and shed much innocent blood[his own people and prophets by some accounts]. Rome under Cestius Gallus again is shown to have been in the same territory, later to be totally destroyed by Titus who impaled people by facing them to the city they were trying to flee, later genocide[Josephus account].[Titus arch of Rome]

    I have often wondered if there is a link between culture/language/genes.
    Rome also committed genocide[Gual] and built stadiums for gladiator style games. I'm sure Arminus was well as other Germanic tribes were well aware the genocide and cruelty Romans could inflict. The examples given are after hundreds and thousands of years of evolution of architectural, cultural/linguistics and city/state building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Some of the above examples[pre Natufian region] are from an area that experienced agricultural revolution 10K+/- yet after 1000's of years of civilization building and fell into the same genocide ways. Under one King who offered his own son to fire and shed much innocent blood[his own people and prophets by some accounts]. Rome under Cestius Gallus again is shown to have been in the same territory, later to be totally destroyed by Titus who impaled people by facing them to the city they were trying to flee, later genocide[Josephus account].[Titus arch of Rome]

    I have often wondered if there is a link between culture/language/genes.
    Rome also committed genocide[Gual] and built stadiums for gladiator style games. I'm sure Arminus was well as other Germanic tribes were well aware the genocide and cruelty Romans could inflict. The examples given are after hundreds and thousands of years of evolution of architectural, cultural/linguistics and city/state building.
    You're reaching, and conveniently ignoring the genocide by the Indo-Europeans, among others. Ever read the Hindu classics? What did the ancestors of the "Gauls" do to the men of the European Neolithic? How about the Huns? What about what the Germans did to the Jews and Poles? How about the Spanish and Portuguese versus Amerindians. How about the Hotu and Hutu? The Persians vs the Jews was pretty horrific too. I could go on and on. It's the human condition. There's no "pure" group in terms of behavior.

    Stop attributing horrendous behavior only to peoples you don't like. It's intellectually dishonest.

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