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Thread: Violence and the Neanderthals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're reaching, and conveniently ignoring the genocide by the Indo-Europeans, among others. Ever read the Hindu classics? What did the ancestors of the "Gauls" do to the men of the European Neolithic? How about the Huns? What about what the Germans did to the Jews and Poles? How about the Spanish and Portuguese versus Amerindians. How about the Hotu and Hutu? The Persians vs the Jews was pretty horrific too. I could go on and on. It's the human condition. There's no "pure" group in terms of behavior.

    Stop attributing horrendous behavior only to peoples you don't like. It's intellectually dishonest.
    Interesting choice of West Germanic dialect derived words and, unknown/unproven ancestoral examples of Indo-Europeans[to date] Neolithic genocidal track record; for a rebuttal.Pure; that's right out of left field? Perhaps there is miscommunication or transliteration Latin/English/German component I'm missing.
    Still does not change the fact that mans nature has not changed in the last 10+/-k years despite living in an urban environment or steppe or desert,Imo.

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Interesting choice of West Germanic dialect derived words and, unknown/unproven ancestoral examples of Indo-Europeans[to date] Neolithic genocidal track record; for a rebuttal.Pure; that's right out of left field? Perhaps there is miscommunication or transliteration Latin/English/German component I'm missing.
    Still does not change the fact that mans nature has not changed in the last 10+/-k years despite living in an urban environment or steppe or desert,Imo.
    Silesian, please...

    Why did farmer mtDna survive, but not their ydna, in Spain and Portugal, for example. The plague would hit men and women alike, and so would starvation. The same thing happened in the New World. I certainly don't like it, but that's the most probable scenario. Or, just read the Hindu classics to find out how the Indo-Europeans behaved when they got to India.

    How do you explain the data from paleolithic and mesolithic Europe? They sure weren't farmers. In fact, a study I just recently published showed there was more of it at that time than at subsequent periods. Should we just ignore it? It makes sense: they were always living at the edge of extinction. The myth of the Noble Savage is just that: a myth.

    It's HUMAN nature. It's part of our make-up, especially the make-up of men. Look at chimps, for goodness sakes, our near cousins...nasty, homicidal brutes. You're Polish, I think, yes? Have you forgotten your catechism? :) Original sin is a pretty good story for what genetics will scientifically explain. Violence is hard-wired in human beings to use Le Broc's term.

    Do you have children? Have you spent a lot of time watching children interact at playgrounds? Anyone who thinks they're all sweet darlings isn't paying attention. Girl children aren't as physically violent, but they can cause a lot of damage all the same. My best friend Ruth used to call one blue eyed dark haired angelic looking little girl the "demon child". Within a half hour of her arrival three or four little girls would be crying.

    Once you accept than man is by his nature flawed, that darkness lurks within most people, including violence, everything makes more sense. Man's institutions are flawed because man is flawed and he created them, not the other way around.


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Silesian, please...

    Why did farmer mtDna survive, but not their ydna, in Spain and Portugal, for example. The plague would hit men and women alike, and so would starvation. The same thing happened in the New World. I certainly don't like it, but that's the most probable scenario. Or, just read the Hindu classics to find out how the Indo-Europeans behaved when they got to India.

    How do you explain the data from paleolithic and mesolithic Europe? They sure weren't farmers. In fact, a study I just recently published showed there was more of it at that time than at subsequent periods. Should we just ignore it? It makes sense: they were always living at the edge of extinction. The myth of the Noble Savage is just that: a myth.

    It's HUMAN nature. It's part of our make-up, especially the make-up of men. Look at chimps, for goodness sakes, our near cousins...nasty, homicidal brutes. You're Polish, I think, yes? Have you forgotten your catechism? :) Original sin is a pretty good story for what genetics will scientifically explain. Violence is hard-wired in human beings to use Le Broc's term.

    Do you have children? Have you spent a lot of time watching children interact at playgrounds? Anyone who thinks they're all sweet darlings isn't paying attention. Girl children aren't as physically violent, but they can cause a lot of damage all the same. My best friend Ruth used to call one blue eyed dark haired angelic looking little girl the "demon child". Within a half hour of her arrival three or four little girls would be crying.

    Once you accept than man is by his nature flawed, that darkness lurks within most people, including violence, everything makes more sense. Man's institutions are flawed because man is flawed and he created them, not the other way around.
    See:
    "Humans: Unusually Murderous Mammals, Typically Murderous Primates"

    "Humans do all three. Gómez’s team calculated that at the origin of Homo sapiens, we were six times more lethally violent than the average mammal, but about as violent as expected for a primate. But time and social organizations have sated our ancestral bloodthirst, leaving us with modern rates of lethal violence that are well below the prehistoric baseline. We are an average member of an especially violent group of mammals, and we’ve managed to curb our ancestry.Gómez’s team predicted that when our species arose, around 2 percent of us (1 in 50) would have been murdered by other people.
    Thomas Hobbes would have approved. In the 17th century, he argued that modern society protects us from our brutish nature, lived in “continual fear, and danger of violent death.” Not so, said Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who felt that civilization corrupts our neutral nature. These opposing views on violence—the former emphasizing an innate proclivity, and the latter focusing on cultural influences—preceded Hobbes and Rousseau by many centuries, and outlived them by many more. “Consensus does not exist, and positions are polarized,” says Gómez. “We hope that our study will shed light to the role that both evolution and culture have played in human lethal violence.”"

    "Gómez’s team showed that by poring through statistical yearbooks, archaeological sites, and more, to work out causes of death in 600 human populations between 50,000 BC to the present day. They concluded that rates of lethal violence originally ranged from 3.4 to 3.9 percent during Paleolithic times, making us only slightly more violent than you’d expect for a primate of our evolutionary past. That rate rose to around 12 percent during the bloody Medieval period, before falling again over the last few centuries to levels even lower than our prehistoric past."

    "It’s likely that primates are especially violent because we are both territorial and social—two factors that respectively provide motive and opportunity for murder. So it goes for humans. As we moved from small bands to medium-sized tribes to large chiefdoms, our rates of lethal violence increased.

    But once we formed large states, “institutions like the rule of law reduced rates of lethal violence below what one would expect for a mammal with our ancestry and ecology, and below what has been observed in human societies in earlier periods and with simpler forms of social organization,” says Steven Pinker from Harvard University. He argued as much in his book The Better Angels of Our Nature, but says that Gómez’s team have done so “with greater precision, rigor, and depth; I wish this study had been available when I wrote the book.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...imates/501935/



    See also the following plus the citations provided above.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=9N...lithic&f=false


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Meerkats? They're adorable! I would've liked one as a pet but now that I see this chart I've changed my mind
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Well there is also contrary evidence to show that no such warfare occurred until the advent of agriculture, and perhaps the violence inflicted may have been by other "proto-humans", tusked/horned animals, or primates. Also most of the links you provide discuss chimpanzees and relatively modern tribal groups. Also I'm not sure what "gender equality" has to do with any of this. People before the past 20-50 years knew the obvious differences between males and females, and that it is a complimentary arrangement, symbiotic, yin and yang, not two equal and identical forces. Our minds and bodies function incredibly differently.

    "Some scholars believe that this period of "Paleolithic warlessness" persisted until well after the appearance of Homo sapiens some 200,000 years ago, ending only at the occurrence of economic and social shifts associated with sedentism, when new conditions incentivized organized raiding of settlements.[5][6]


    Of the many cave paintings of the Upper Paleolithic, none depicts people attacking other people explicitly,[7][8] but there are depictions of human beings pierced with arrows both of the Aurignacian-Périgordian (roughly 30,000 years old) and the early Magdalenian (c. 17,000 years old), possibly representing "spontaneous confrontations over game resources" in which hostile trespassers were killed; however, other interpretations, including capital punishment, human sacrifice, assassination or systemic warfare cannot be ruled out.[9]
    Skeletal and artifactual evidence of intergroup violence between Paleolithic nomadic foragers is absent as well.[8][10]"

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have a hard time with the "war started with agriculture" thing. Tribal warfare has always been around and started well before the Neolithic

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    Well there is also contrary evidence to show that no such warfare occurred until the advent of agriculture, and perhaps the violence inflicted may have been by other "proto-humans", tusked/horned animals, or primates. Also most of the links you provide discuss chimpanzees and relatively modern tribal groups. Also I'm not sure what "gender equality" has to do with any of this. People before the past 20-50 years knew the obvious differences between males and females, and that it is a complimentary arrangement, symbiotic, yin and yang, not two equal and identical forces. Our minds and bodies function incredibly differently.

    "Some scholars believe that this period of "Paleolithic warlessness" persisted until well after the appearance of Homo sapiens some 200,000 years ago, ending only at the occurrence of economic and social shifts associated with sedentism, when new conditions incentivized organized raiding of settlements.[5][6]


    Of the many cave paintings of the Upper Paleolithic, none depicts people attacking other people explicitly,[7][8] but there are depictions of human beings pierced with arrows both of the Aurignacian-Périgordian (roughly 30,000 years old) and the early Magdalenian (c. 17,000 years old), possibly representing "spontaneous confrontations over game resources" in which hostile trespassers were killed; however, other interpretations, including capital punishment, human sacrifice, assassination or systemic warfare cannot be ruled out.[9]
    Skeletal and artifactual evidence of intergroup violence between Paleolithic nomadic foragers is absent as well.[8][10]"
    Please provide the source for these quotes so I can check the age of the supporting papers, as every recent paper of the last years presents an entirely different picture. If they're not recent, it's a lesson in the fact that you really have to keep up with science; it changes as methods and procedures become better.

    Also, for the record, you don't look for portrayal of killings on cave paintings; you look for it on the skeletal remains of people.

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    Conflict over territory, resources, and females is as old as the first "Noddite" wanderer trying to climb Eden's "wall" to steal apples, real or figurative, so to speak...

    Early agriculture, however, tends to be more expansive than hunting/gathering, in that fresh fields, to replace exhausted ones, had to be continuously acquired. The difference in warfare was less a matter of type than scale, with agriculture allowing larger, more organized, groups to band together and seize the territory, and females, of smaller, less organized, groups.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...nity-neolithic

    The scientists’ best guess is that a small farming village was massacred and thrown into a pit nearby. The skeletons of young women were absent from the grave, which suggests that the attackers may have taken the women captive after killing their families.

    It is likely that fighting broke out over limited farming resources, upon which people depended for survival. Unlike their nomadic hunter-gatherer ancestors, people of the Linear Pottery culture settled into a farming lifestyle. Communities cleared forests to farm crops and lived in timber longhouses alongside their livestock.

    The landscape soon became full of farming communities, putting a strain on natural resources. Along with adverse climate change and drought, this led to tension and conflict. In acts of collective violence, communities would come together to massacre their neighbours and take their land by force.

    Lawrence Keeley, an anthropologist at the University of Illinois in Chicago, said that alongside Talheim and Asparn, this latest massacre discovery fits a pattern of common and murderous warfare. “The only reasonable interpretation of these cases, as here, is that a whole typically-sized Linear Pottery culture hamlet or small village was wiped out by killing the majority of its inhabitants and kidnapping the young women. This represents yet another nail in the coffin of those who have claimed that war was rare or ritualised or less awful in prehistory or, in this instance, the early Neolithic.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please provide the source for these quotes so I can check the age of the supporting papers, as every recent paper of the last years presents an entirely different picture. If they're not recent, it's a lesson in the fact that you really have to keep up with science; it changes as methods and procedures become better.

    Also, for the record, you don't look for portrayal of killings on cave paintings; you look for it on the skeletal remains of people.

    The sources are literally hyperlinked into every single statement. Just click on the numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    afaik there is no proof of violence between modern humans and Neanderthal

    the simplest explanation is the modern humans simply outcompeted Neanderthals after 50 ka
    I read the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Harari. Most interesting in that he believes what made Sapiens succeed was our ability to invent and believe in things that do not exist, and to get others to believe the same. This gave Sapiens the ability to work more effectively in large groups and probably also to be tactically or strategically more effective.

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