Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: Hyllus and Illyrius, the connection between Dorians and Illyrians?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    137

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Hyllus and Illyrius, the connection between Dorians and Illyrians?

    In Greek mythology, Hyllus /ˈhɪləs/ (Greek: Ὕλλος) or Hyllas (Ὕλᾱς) was son of Heracles and Deianira, husband of Iole, nursed by Abia who was also claimed to be the earliest Illyrian king. [Hesiod, Catalogue of Women fr. 25.17–19.], [John Middleton (ISBN: 9780765680501), World Monarchies and Dynasties, page 428]

    As it's said, the earliest known king of Illyria was Hyllus (The Star), who had established the kingdom of Illyrians who is recorded to have died in the year 1225 B.C. [John Middleton (ISBN: 9780765680501), World Monarchies and Dynasties, page 428]

    Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus, but after a year's stay were forced by a pestilence to quit. They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons, Pamphylus and Dymas, voluntarily submitted to Hyllus (who was, according to the Dorian tradition in Herodotus V. 72, really an Achaean), who thus became ruler of the Dorians, the three branches of that race being named after these three heroes. [Hall, Jonathan M. (2014).A history of the Archaic Greek World: ca. 1200-479 BCE (2. ed.). ISBN9781118340462.]

    However, in later Greek mythology [
    E.g. in the myth compendium Bibliotheca of PseudoApollodorus III.5.4, which is not earlier than the first century BC.], Illyrius was the son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of all Illyrian people [Grimal & Maxwell-Hyslop 1996, p. 230; Apollodorus & Hard 1999, p. 103 (Book III, 5.4)].


    It seems Hyllus and Illyrius are the same mythological beings as seen from the above and can also be explained linguistically!

    In the Albanian language, "Yll" means Star, in some northern Albanian dialects "Hill" with the same meaning.
    In Greek, "
    Ήλιος", or "Ilios", from Ancient Greek ἥλιος (hḗlios, “sun, sunlight).
    Although no unambiguous attestations of words for "sun" have been found in Mycenaean yet, though the Mycenaean word for "sun" is reconstructed as *hāwélios, from PIE
    *sāwélios.
    Loss of prevocalic *s was not completed entirely as evidenced by some surviving words as
    sélas ‘light in the sky, as in the aurora’ and selḗnē/selā́nā ‘moon’ may be more examples of the same if it derived from PIE *swel- ‘to burn’ (possibly related to hḗlios ‘sun’, Ionic hēélios < *sāwélios), thus the reconstruction *hāwélios might not be entirely true!
    Threfore, the word "
    ἥλιος" or ''Illios" in Greek, is probably of Doric, or North-Western Greek dialect!

    The Sun was one of the most important symbols for ancient Greeks of Classical era after the Greek Dark ages so it's connection with the Greeks seems to be of Dorian rather than Achaean or Mycenaean origin!
    Early representations of the symbol go back to at least the 6th century BC, with
    hoplites depicted as bearing sixteen-pointed and eight-pointed sunburst symbols on their shields and armor, and the same symbols being represented on coins from both island and mainland Greece from at least the 5th century BC.
    The symbol was found on the coffin believed to belong to Philip II of Macedon.



    The "sunburst" symbol was already well-known as a symbol used both by the Macedonian royal dynasty (e.g. on coins) as well as in
    Hellenistic civilization more generally. The symbol represents the Sun god (Helios), which was taken as the patron deity of the Argead dynasty based on the foundational legend about Perdiccas I of Macedon as told by Herodotus.


    Thus, we can assume that the name "Illyrians" or "Illyroi" comes from the name of their first mythological king Hyllus or Illyrius as was the tradition in ancient times, many ancient tribes to bear the names of their kings!
    The name literary means "The Star people"!

    The same can be said for the name "Hellenes" or "Έλληνες, Éllines"!
    The Éllines came to be known only after the Greek Dark ages as first mentioned by Homer who refers to the "Hellenes" (/ˈhɛliːnz/) as a relatively small tribe settled in Thessalic Phthia, with its warriors under the command of Achilleus.
    Their name ultimately derives from Hyllus or Helios from
    Ionic "hēélios" who according to the Greek mythology, he and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus, but after a year's stay were forced by a pestilence to quit. They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons, Pamphylus and Dymas, voluntarily submitted to Hyllus (who was, according to the Dorian tradition in Herodotus V. 72, really an Achaean), who thus became ruler of the Dorians, the three branches of that race being named after these three heroes. Being desirous of reconquering his paternal inheritance, Hyllus consulted the Delphic oracle, which told him to wait for "the third fruit," and then enter Peloponnesus by "a narrow passage by sea."






    Last edited by Aspar; 20-11-18 at 00:52.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    341


    Country: Serbia



    Interesting assumption.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    09-12-20
    Posts
    2


    Country: Greece



    2 members found this post helpful.
    1) Hyllus as son of Herakles was an Achaean Greek. Thus the Spartan kings considered themselves Achaeans, not Dorians. (Herodotus 5. 72)
    2) Because of point 1 and your claim that Hyllus was indeed king of Illyrians we conclude that the first king of Illyria was Greek and thus if you insist on an etymological connection, the etymology of the word "Illyrians" comes from Hyllus and not the vice versa. However from what I read I don't think it's proven he was king of Illyrian people specifically, let alone every single Illyrian tribe at the time.
    3) Hyllus also was a giant from whom the river Hyllus in Lydia was named. I don't think there is a point in debating wether there is connection or not. Let's discuss the Dorians:
    4) Dorians: Greek tribe, period. Most likely originated from Northern/Central Greece. Greek speakers, considered Greek by everyone and not barbarians, like the Illyrians. If they were Illyrians, they would be barbarians.
    5) The sun was a popular Greek symbol and doesn't identify a single tribe, it was used by most Greek tribes. The Athenian aristocrats really favoured the radiant sun like the Macedonians and the Locrians.
    In any case, there is a plethora of posts trying to prove that everyone and everything is of Illyrian origin. You realise such a thing is not possible. Even for the ancient Greeks that had such a large impact in the world, still it would be foolish to claim that everything is Greek!
    Also the history of Illyrians is not simple and a lot of basic information we need about them is missing. The term Illyrian was used in the Bronze Age for a specific tribe and only in the 6th century it was used by Greeks for a larger number of tribes (Roisman & Worthington 2010, p. 280).
    The Illyrians are fascinating for what they were and they were lots of things but they certainly weren't the forefathers of a 100% Greek tribe.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    09-12-20
    Posts
    2


    Country: Greece



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Necessary double post for some additions ( I can't edit yet unfortunately)

    On 1): Hyllus was ancestor of the Spartan kings, that's why they considered themselves Achaean like him. His grand grandsons, the twins Eurysthenes and Prokles, are considered the reason Sparta had two kings (Diarchy).

    On the etymological connection between Hyllys and Helios: Hyllus (Ύλλος) doesn't seem to be connected with Helios (Ήλιος) and Illyrians (Ιλλύριοι). The grammar is completely different. Only the sound is similar, nothing else. And yet many other words start with the similar "il-" like Ίλιγγος (Vertigo), Ίλαρχος (Hellenistic officer of cavalry), Ύλη (matter).

    Similarity doesn't always prove connection.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •