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Thread: Found R1b in Neolithic France (?)

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Found R1b in Neolithic France (?)

    I red the thesis Du fonctionnement des sites funéraires aux processus de néolithisation sur le territoire français (néolithique ancien et moyen) : premiers apports de l’approche paléogénétique by Maïte Rivollat, in page 212 there is a table with SNP results for a person buried 7 millenia ago in Germignac (western France), mtDNA calls point to T; calls for Y-DNA are few but from the 4 samples from 2 teeth the lab got 3 calls for M343 (which defines R1b): it's to much to be a coincidence or contamination...

    The cultural assignment of the individual was difficult: Cerny? Cardial? Mesolithic?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Yeah that looks like M343. I think Maju talked about an expansive and warlike Late Neolithic culture centred in Aquitain but the name escapes me (it's not Michelsberg).

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    Where the Epipaleolithic R and J from Iboussières found to be something else?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yeah that looks like M343. I think Maju talked about an expansive and warlike Late Neolithic culture centred in Aquitain but the name escapes me (it's not Michelsberg).
    Artenacian?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I red the thesis Du fonctionnement des sites funéraires aux processus de néolithisation sur le territoire français (néolithique ancien et moyen) : premiers apports de l’approche paléogénétique by Maïte Rivollat, in page 212 there is a table with SNP results for a person buried 7 millenia ago in Germignac (western France), mtDNA calls point to T; calls for Y-DNA are few but from the 4 samples from 2 teeth the lab got 3 calls for M343 (which defines R1b): it's to much to be a coincidence or contamination...

    The cultural assignment of the individual was difficult: Cerny? Cardial? Mesolithic?
    Quite possibly R1b-V88 or R1b-L754(xM269). It's not going to be M269+, let alone P312+. These guys were all overrun. Unfortunately, since DNA testing is banned in France (LOL!) you won't find that 1 out of 50,000 sample you're looking for. None of the cultures above if we're talking 5,000 BC, it would be a megalithic culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Quite possibly R1b-V88 or R1b-L754(xM269). It's not going to be M269+, let alone P312+. These guys were all overrun. Unfortunately, since DNA testing is banned in France (LOL!) you won't find that 1 out of 50,000 sample you're looking for. None of the cultures above if we're talking 5,000 BC, it would be a megalithic culture.
    Probably not M269, but it is possible. If, as yfull estimates, M269 was formed in 11,300 BC, who knows where every single M269 man might have roamed over the next 6,300 years?

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    Well, the sample was dated by 5000 BC impliying that he was a neolithic pioneer colonizing new lands, if my thinking is correct, that R1b were herders and G2 farmers, herders usualy get first into new lands and get profit of lands not suitable for farmers, allowing that that regionaly could be a majority (as per example the 3 Pyrenean samples of Els Trocs, 1600 m above sea level, none was G2).

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I red the thesis Du fonctionnement des sites funéraires aux processus de néolithisation sur le territoire français (néolithique ancien et moyen) : premiers apports de l’approche paléogénétique by Maïte Rivollat, in page 212 there is a table with SNP results for a person buried 7 millenia ago in Germignac (western France), mtDNA calls point to T; calls for Y-DNA are few but from the 4 samples from 2 teeth the lab got 3 calls for M343 (which defines R1b): it's to much to be a coincidence or contamination...

    The cultural assignment of the individual was difficult: Cerny? Cardial? Mesolithic?
    Rivollat tells: "Les SNPs du chromosome Y ne fournissent aucun rsultat exploitable". Indeed the results give both ancestral and derived alleles for M343. So these samples are probably not R1b.

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    I know that Rivollat is cautious about the results and that it has not much more use to prove nothing, but if three samples of the same individue provide calls for M343 I open wide the eyes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I know that Rivollat is cautious about the results and that it has not much more use to prove nothing, but if three samples of the same individue provide calls for M343 I open wide the eyes.
    It is not New Generation Sequencing but old PCR method strongly subject to contamination

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    If it would be contamination the results would be cristal clear instead of low quality (=time decayment), you can find clear examples of that in such these. And 3 contaminated samples? in the core of the teeth? what a lab!

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    What would be so astonishing in finding an old SNP of Y-R1b in France around 5000 BC when we had Mesolothic R1b in Balkans? On another side, nothing proves or disproves to me he was a Farmer by origin (say a Cardial man from S-E Europe, or something else?).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If these samples really R1b, and if they were somehow related (or eventually absorbed into) to Cardial Ware, wouldn't it fit the assumption that arrival of R1b-V88 and the ANF/EEF presence in North Africa are somehow related? I find that possibility more interesting and plausible than its being R1b-M269 and, far less so, directly ancestral to the latter expansion of R1b clades in Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If these samples really R1b, and if they were somehow related (or eventually absorbed into) to Cardial Ware, wouldn't it fit the assumption that arrival of R1b-V88 and the ANF/EEF presence in North Africa are somehow related? I find that possibility more interesting and plausible than its being R1b-M269 and, far less so, directly ancestral to the latter expansion of R1b clades in Western Europe.
    I 'm tempted to think like you here, in absence of more details

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