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Thread: New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    He's referring to Hamsicora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampsicora

    His name has been compared to Amsigurra, a berber woman in one of Plauto's commedies, and to a lake in North Africa. But usually the same scholars who make this comparison tend to emphasize Sardinians' North african ancestry excessively and unscientifically, going as far as saying that Sardinia was populated since prehistory from North Africa, or even taking Cicero's slanderous speech as a historical source, because in that speech he says that Sardinians were born out of the union of Phoenicians and Africans. Eitherway anyone who's familar with academical literature about ancient Sardinian knows that it's a common trend, especially among italian and sardinian scholars, to claim that Sardinians have North african origins.
    This case is reinforced with names like those of Qdabinel, Iamucaris, Hannibal, Osurbal, etc.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    This case is reinforced with names like those of Qdabinel, Iamucaris, Hannibal, Osurbal, etc.
    But those are mostly names coming epigraphs belonging to the citizens of the coastal towns of the South West, which had been under Phoenician and later Punic influence for several centuries, so it doesn't have much to do with the sardinian rebels, of whom we know only two names: Ampsichora whose berber origin of the name is disputable, and his son Hostus/Iostus whose name seems indigenous, both of them came from Cornus in the North West. We only know the names of the inhabitants of the interior such as the Iliensi and Balari thanks to some epigraphs dating to the roman period, and most of their names seem of local origin: Ithoccor/Orzocco, Torbenus, Silesius, Nispella etc. They're all which are only found in Sardinia, and the Giudici and previous Archons/Protospatharoi of the middle ages will very often use those names.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Pygmalion*, with all due respect, I think Berun is leading you down a rabbit hole. :)

    Of course names are not necessarily reliable indicators of ethnicity. Natives are often renamed by conquerors, or they're adopted by the lower classes after a certain period of time. In the Middle Ages do you know how many people in Italy were named Matilde and Otto and Erminia and on and on? Would anyone seriously suggest they were all or even partly Gothic, or Langobard, or Frank in actuality? Was the German war leader Arminius Roman because he bore a Roman name? How about all those Balkanite boys who wound up in the Ottoman forces, like Barbarossa? Anyone think this half Albanian, half Greek with a formal Turkish name was Italian? :)

    People who emphasize "names" as proof of substantial admixture usually have some ax to grind, and from what I have seen it's usually for the purpose of t-rolling Italians about all their "Levantine" ancestry, as if that's something of which to be ashamed. Of course, not accusing Berun of that at all. It was merely an observation. To digress, I do find it ironic that t-rolls of the first order like Sikeliot (and all his socks) at anthrogenica express shock that some Europeans (not I clearly) might have a problem with having Levantine ancestry when as Portuguese Princess he spent years vehemently arguing that his mother's people, Spaniards, had none of that tainted ancestry while his detested Sicilian father's people were riddled with it.

    Ah well, sorry, back to the point at hand.

    We have luckily passed beyond the point where we look for answers to names and the contradictory transcribed legends put down by ancient writers. We now have genetics, and the genetics seem to be telling us certain things although it will be a while before we have clarity.

    It seems that some time from the late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, another, slightly different migration came from Anatolia/the Aegean and spread west. I say late Neolithic/Chalcolithic partly from the archaeology, of Sardinia for example, and partly from the Admixture runs based on modern populations so beloved by people. Otzi lived in the Chalcolithic, and yet according to those measures he was about 22% "Caucasus" like. Now, that doesn't mean CHG like, but it does mean a farmer mix with high Iran Neo. Of course, he also had the "dreaded" Southwest Asian, as did the Gok farmers for that matter. :)

    [IMG][/IMG]

    In the Iron Age you have the movement of the Greeks and the Phoenicians west. We know that the Greeks created actual colonies and I don't doubt their genetic impact.

    The Phoenicians are a bit different, and their impact, depending on the place, might be much smaller. From the Ibiza paper we see that it was a male migration. That makes sense, because as I've said before, the Phoenicians were more like the East India company than like the Greek colonization.

    "The Phoenicians were not an agricultural people, because most of the land was not arable; therefore, they focused on commerce and trading instead. They did, however, raise sheep and sold them and their wool."
    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Phoenician_Civilization

    The farms they set up were probably like the farms the Dutch East India company established at Cape Town: meant to supply their own people, the passing ships of their fleet, and for sale. Their mating patterns appear to have been the same as well.

    So, was there a genetic "presence" on Ibiza of the Phoenicians? Yes, from that genome, incomplete as it is, it seems there was. It seems to be male mediated, with all "native" female input. Also, for our reading comprehension challenged "friends" at anthrogenica, it is essentially no longer present in the people of Ibiza. Everything depends on the size of the "other" lineages present before, during or after the time of an ancient sample, which I thought was obvious.

    Now let's turn to Sardinia. What do all the newest papers tell us? They tell us that the Phoenicians were present in the southwest of the island for quite some time. What do we know from the genetics? We know that the percentage of Iran Neo on the island is exceedingly small, even in the southwest. I would again suggest our "friends" at anthrogenica read some PAPERS, like Chiang et al, which looks not only at the HGDP like people of the Gennargentu, but at the coastal cities. Unless, of course, they think these academics are also Nordicist Italians who have distorted the data?

    As for the yDna, there's about 9% of the perhaps relevant "J" lineages, but the J2 at least could have come during the Bronze Age, not necessarily with the Phoenicians.

    From Alessio Boatini:

    J1-0
    J1e-2.4
    J2a-6.1
    J2a2-1.2

    Likewise, what looks like the Near Eastern and North African versions of E are present, for a total of about 7%.

    E1b1b1b-1.2
    E1b1b1c-6.1
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441#s6

    So, why is there, according to Chiang's analysis of even southwestern coastal Sardinians, so little "Iran Neo" like ancestry, or Near Eastern heavy, North Africa heavy ancestry, which is what he's really measuring? I suppose for the same reason that 18% R1b results in so little steppe: not very numerous male mediated migration overwhelmed by "local" dna.

    I don't see anything either very difficult or very ambiguous about this.

    *Correction from Cato.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Cato, with all due respect, I think Berun is leading you down a rabbit hole. :)

    Of course names are not necessarily reliable indicators of ethnicity. Natives are often renamed by conquerors, or they're adopted by the lower classes after a certain period of time. In the Middle Ages do you know how many people in Italy were named Matilde and Otto and Erminia and on and on? Would anyone seriously suggest they were all or even partly Gothic, or Langobard, or Frank in actuality? Was the German war leader Arminius Roman because he bore a Roman name? How about all those Balkanite boys who wound up in the Ottoman forces, like Barbarossa? Anyone think this half Albanian, half Greek with a formal Turkish name was Italian? :)

    People who emphasize "names" as proof of substantial admixture usually have some ax to grind, and from what I have seen it's usually for the purpose of t-rolling Italians about all their "Levantine" ancestry, as if that's something of which to be ashamed. Of course, not accusing Berun of that at all. It was merely an observation. To digress, I do find it ironic that t-rolls of the first order like Sikeliot (and all his socks) at anthrogenica express shock that some Europeans (not I clearly) might have a problem with having Levantine ancestry when as Portuguese Princess he spent years vehemently arguing that his mother's people, Spaniards, had none of that tainted ancestry while his detested Sicilian father's people were riddled with it.

    Ah well, sorry, back to the point at hand.

    We have luckily passed beyond the point where we look for answers to names and the contradictory transcribed legends put down by ancient writers. We now have genetics, and the genetics seem to be telling us certain things although it will be a while before we have clarity.

    It seems that some time from the late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, another, slightly different migration came from Anatolia/the Aegean and spread west. I say late Neolithic/Chalcolithic partly from the archaeology, of Sardinia for example, and partly from the Admixture runs based on modern populations so beloved by people. Otzi lived in the Chalcolithic, and yet according to those measures he was about 22% "Caucasus" like. Now, that doesn't mean CHG like, but it does mean a farmer mix with high Iran Neo. Of course, he also had the "dreaded" Southwest Asian, as did the Gok farmers for that matter. :)

    In the Iron Age you have the movement of the Greeks and the Phoenicians west. We know that the Greeks created actual colonies and I don't doubt their genetic impact.

    The Phoenicians are a bit different, and their impact, depending on the place, might be much smaller. From the Ibiza paper we see that it was a male migration. That makes sense, because as I've said before, the Phoenicians were more like the East India company than like the Greek colonization.

    "The Phoenicians were not an agricultural people, because most of the land was not arable; therefore, they focused on commerce and trading instead. They did, however, raise sheep and sold them and their wool."

    The farms they set up were probably like the farms the Dutch East India company established at Cape Town: meant to supply their own people, the passing ships of their fleet, and for sale. Their mating patterns appear to have been the same as well.

    So, was there a genetic "presence" on Ibiza of the Phoenicians? Yes, from that genome, incomplete as it is, it seems there was. It seems to be male mediated, with all "native" female input. Also, for our reading comprehension challenged "friends" at anthrogenica, it is essentially no longer present in the people of Ibiza. Everything depends on the size of the "other" lineages present before, during or after the time of an ancient sample, which I thought was obvious.

    Now let's turn to Sardinia. What do all the newest papers tell us? They tell us that the Phoenicians were present in the southwest of the island for quite some time. What do we know from the genetics? We know that the percentage of Iran Neo on the island is exceedingly small, even in the southwest. I would again suggest our "friends" at anthrogenica read some PAPERS, like Chiang et al, which looks not only at the HGDP like people of the Gennargentu, but at the coastal cities. Unless, of course, they think these academics are also Nordicist Italians who have distorted the data?

    As for the yDna, there's about 9% of the perhaps relevant "J" lineages, but the J2 at least could have come during the Bronze Age, not necessarily with the Phoenicians.

    From Alessio Boatini:

    J1-0
    J1e-2.4
    J2a-6.1
    J2a2-1.2

    Likewise, what looks like the Near Eastern and North African versions of E are present, for a total of about 7%.

    E1b1b1b-1.2
    E1b1b1c-6.1

    So, why is there, according to Chiang's analysis of even southwestern coastal Sardinians, so little "Iran Neo" like ancestry, or Near Eastern heavy, North Africa heavy ancestry, which is what he's really measuring? I suppose for the same reason that 18% R1b results in so little steppe: not very numerous male mediated migration overwhelmed by "local" dna.

    I don't see anything either very difficult or very ambiguous about this.
    did you mean Pygmalion? I'm not familiar with Punic names

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    did you mean Pygmalion? I'm not familiar with Punic names

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    So sorry, Cato. It was indeed Pygmalion. I'll correct my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Pygmalion*, with all due respect, I think Berun is leading you down a rabbit hole. :)

    Of course names are not necessarily reliable indicators of ethnicity. Natives are often renamed by conquerors, or they're adopted by the lower classes after a certain period of time. In the Middle Ages do you know how many people in Italy were named Matilde and Otto and Erminia and on and on? Would anyone seriously suggest they were all or even partly Gothic, or Langobard, or Frank in actuality? Was the German war leader Arminius Roman because he bore a Roman name? How about all those Balkanite boys who wound up in the Ottoman forces, like Barbarossa? Anyone think this half Albanian, half Greek with a formal Turkish name was Italian? :)

    People who emphasize "names" as proof of substantial admixture usually have some ax to grind, and from what I have seen it's usually for the purpose of t-rolling Italians about all their "Levantine" ancestry, as if that's something of which to be ashamed. Of course, not accusing Berun of that at all. It was merely an observation. To digress, I do find it ironic that t-rolls of the first order like Sikeliot (and all his socks) at anthrogenica express shock that some Europeans (not I clearly) might have a problem with having Levantine ancestry when as Portuguese Princess he spent years vehemently arguing that his mother's people, Spaniards, had none of that tainted ancestry while his detested Sicilian father's people were riddled with it.

    Ah well, sorry, back to the point at hand.

    We have luckily passed beyond the point where we look for answers to names and the contradictory transcribed legends put down by ancient writers. We now have genetics, and the genetics seem to be telling us certain things although it will be a while before we have clarity.

    It seems that some time from the late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, another, slightly different migration came from Anatolia/the Aegean and spread west. I say late Neolithic/Chalcolithic partly from the archaeology, of Sardinia for example, and partly from the Admixture runs based on modern populations so beloved by people. Otzi lived in the Chalcolithic, and yet according to those measures he was about 22% "Caucasus" like. Now, that doesn't mean CHG like, but it does mean a farmer mix with high Iran Neo. Of course, he also had the "dreaded" Southwest Asian, as did the Gok farmers for that matter. :)

    [IMG][/IMG]

    In the Iron Age you have the movement of the Greeks and the Phoenicians west. We know that the Greeks created actual colonies and I don't doubt their genetic impact.

    The Phoenicians are a bit different, and their impact, depending on the place, might be much smaller. From the Ibiza paper we see that it was a male migration. That makes sense, because as I've said before, the Phoenicians were more like the East India company than like the Greek colonization.

    "The Phoenicians were not an agricultural people, because most of the land was not arable; therefore, they focused on commerce and trading instead. They did, however, raise sheep and sold them and their wool."
    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Phoenician_Civilization

    The farms they set up were probably like the farms the Dutch East India company established at Cape Town: meant to supply their own people, the passing ships of their fleet, and for sale. Their mating patterns appear to have been the same as well.

    So, was there a genetic "presence" on Ibiza of the Phoenicians? Yes, from that genome, incomplete as it is, it seems there was. It seems to be male mediated, with all "native" female input. Also, for our reading comprehension challenged "friends" at anthrogenica, it is essentially no longer present in the people of Ibiza. Everything depends on the size of the "other" lineages present before, during or after the time of an ancient sample, which I thought was obvious.

    Now let's turn to Sardinia. What do all the newest papers tell us? They tell us that the Phoenicians were present in the southwest of the island for quite some time. What do we know from the genetics? We know that the percentage of Iran Neo on the island is exceedingly small, even in the southwest. I would again suggest our "friends" at anthrogenica read some PAPERS, like Chiang et al, which looks not only at the HGDP like people of the Gennargentu, but at the coastal cities. Unless, of course, they think these academics are also Nordicist Italians who have distorted the data?

    As for the yDna, there's about 9% of the perhaps relevant "J" lineages, but the J2 at least could have come during the Bronze Age, not necessarily with the Phoenicians.

    From Alessio Boatini:

    J1-0
    J1e-2.4
    J2a-6.1
    J2a2-1.2

    Likewise, what looks like the Near Eastern and North African versions of E are present, for a total of about 7%.

    E1b1b1b-1.2
    E1b1b1c-6.1
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441#s6

    So, why is there, according to Chiang's analysis of even southwestern coastal Sardinians, so little "Iran Neo" like ancestry, or Near Eastern heavy, North Africa heavy ancestry, which is what he's really measuring? I suppose for the same reason that 18% R1b results in so little steppe: not very numerous male mediated migration overwhelmed by "local" dna.

    I don't see anything either very difficult or very ambiguous about this.

    *Correction from Cato.
    I forgot something rather important. Some of the "E" as well as the trace SSA in the non-Gennargentu Sicilians may actually be from a later period, when the Carthaginians took over the island, treating it, it seems, as a granary for Carthage. It's unknown how many of them actually settled there, and how much of an impact they had eventually. Another reason for the little autosomal influence left may be because they did, in fact, rebel against Rome, were soundly defeated, and either killed or enslaved.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ian_settlement

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    Well, sometimes, names are simply related to its ethnicity, it was so before Romans. By the way the Roman geographers assigned the mountain ranges to native tribes were the plains and coasts, the best lands, for Carthaginians, even putting the frontier between these peoples in a river splitting the island by halves. There are bilingual inscriptions Latin Punic, and Punic names, there is no doubt about Punic colonization, only its extent.

    If nowadays such admixture and Y DNA is not so prevailing maybe its due by historical facts which favoured mountain herders over plain farmers (Roman conquest, Vandals, Byzantines, bad crops, aridity, etc.). Just we need more samples to track down all it.

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    In the South west Sardinia Y dna is:

    I2a1 40%
    R1b 25%
    G2a 13%
    E1b1 4%
    J2a1 6%
    J2b 4%
    I2a 4%
    I2b1 4%

    http://www.didac.ehu.es/antropo/29/29-1/Calo.htm

    It's the area with higher level of Yamnaya ~10% (Chiang latest paper)

    mtDNA

    H 40%
    J 20%
    U 12%
    HV 10%
    T 10%
    RO 2%
    I 2%
    K 2%
    X 2%

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    Last edited by Cato; 09-12-18 at 01:03.

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    Please don't be caught in the own traps that genetists are falling down, such steppe admixture is the lumping of the CHG share of Aegeans and Phoenicians. Please find first EHG and then be talk back.

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    it's not hard to believe that steppe in those sardinians is real, considering 25% R1b...mostly U152 i suppose

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    How exactly should Steppe be false? If they found Steppe, they found EHG. You dont need pure EHG. If we need to imagine Steppe in Sardinians is " shared ancestry " with CHG, we can at the same time reevaluate most of ancestral DNA.

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    *Angela I remember reading in a previous paper that apparently there might have also been a movement in the opposite direction, since scientists might have found some european mtDNA in phoenician graves from Lebanon, but maybe I remember wrong.

    I think that the possibility of an opposite gene flow shouldn't be discarded, I've recently found out about this in an article which mentioned the presence of foreigners in Carthage

    "Some female names are composed of a theophoric element and a root, for example "MTNB'L": the root
    being MTN which means "DON".
    In addition to theophoric names, hypocoristics are widespread in Carthage.
    The names to designate ethnic groups are rarely found. The most used are "MSRT", the Egyptian, and "SRDNT". the Sardinian.
    From the work of A. Ferjaoui (40)"

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Well, sometimes, names are simply related to its ethnicity, it was so before Romans. By the way the Roman geographers assigned the mountain ranges to native tribes were the plains and coasts, the best lands, for Carthaginians, even putting the frontier between these peoples in a river splitting the island by halves. There are bilingual inscriptions Latin Punic, and Punic names, there is no doubt about Punic colonization, only its extent.

    If nowadays such admixture and Y DNA is not so prevailing maybe its due by historical facts which favoured mountain herders over plain farmers (Roman conquest, Vandals, Byzantines, bad crops, aridity, etc.). Just we need more samples to track down all it.
    I don't think anyone here doubts that the Carthaginians conquered Sardinia, I only doubt that they left much of a genetic impact because that's what the genetic evidence suggests.

    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By the way the Roman geographers assigned the mountain ranges to native tribes were the plains and coasts, the best lands, for Carthaginians, even putting the frontier between these peoples in a river splitting the island by halves.
    That's Pausanias referring to the mythical past of Sardinia. He said that the North of the Tyrsus river lived the Libyans and the natives, and South of the Tyrsus lived the Trojans and Greeks, and that they avoided fighting because they were equal in number, of course this can't be taken as a historical account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    But those are mostly names coming epigraphs belonging to the citizens of the coastal towns of the South West, which had been under Phoenician and later Punic influence for several centuries, so it doesn't have much to do with the sardinian rebels, of whom we know only two names: Ampsichora whose berber origin of the name is disputable, and his son Hostus/Iostus whose name seems indigenous, both of them came from Cornus in the North West. We only know the names of the inhabitants of the interior such as the Iliensi and Balari thanks to some epigraphs dating to the roman period, and most of their names seem of local origin: Ithoccor/Orzocco, Torbenus, Silesius, Nispella etc. They're all which are only found in Sardinia, and the Giudici and previous Archons/Protospatharoi of the middle ages will very often use those names.
    You are tricky, the names (just 4 examples!) were found in the core of Sardinia (Aidomaggiore, Samugheo, Ula) except Posada which is in the east coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    it's not hard to believe that steppe in those sardinians is real, considering 25% R1b...mostly U152 i suppose

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    you can't link R1b with steppe as one-eyed genetists do, we have R1b in Kura Araxes, Ganj Dareh, etc. without steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    How exactly should Steppe be false? If they found Steppe, they found EHG. You dont need pure EHG. If we need to imagine Steppe in Sardinians is " shared ancestry " with CHG, we can at the same time reevaluate most of ancestral DNA.
    If a supervised admixture work with whites, mulattos and native Americans, the Camerunese are coming then from America. Admixture programs do that , I posted once a paper about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    I don't think anyone here doubts that the Carthaginians conquered Sardinia, I only doubt that they left much of a genetic impact because that's what the genetic evidence suggests.
    you can read per example Mastino, Attilio a cura di (1985) L'Africa romana: atti del 2. Convegno di
    studio, 14-16 dicembre 1984, Sassari (Italia). Sassari, Edizioni Gallizzi. 286
    p., [16] c. di tav.: ill. (Pubblicazioni del Dipartimento di Storia
    dell'Università di Sassari, 5).
    http://eprints.uniss.it/3177/

    That's Pausanias referring to the mythical past of Sardinia. He said that the North of the Tyrsus river lived the Libyans and the natives, and South of the Tyrsus lived the Trojans and Greeks, and that they avoided fighting because they were equal in number, of course this can't be taken as a historical account.
    of course Pausanias is writting about legendary migrations that are simply legendary... but you must realize that such legends were set up to explain the actual ethnic composition of the island, can you understand what I mean?

    [2] The first sailors to cross to the island are said to have been Libyans. Their leader was Sardus, son of Maceris, the Maceris surnamed Heracles by the Egyptians and Libyans. Maceris himself was celebrated chiefly for his journey to Delphi, but Sardus it was who led the Libyans to Ichnussa, and after him the island was renamed. However, the Libyan army did not expel the aboriginals, who received the invaders as settlers through compulsion rather than in goodwill. Neither the Libyans nor the native population knew how to build cities. They dwelt in scattered groups, where chance found them a home in cabins or caves. ... However, many years afterwards the Libyans crossed again to the island with a stronger army, and began a war against the Greeks. The Greeks were utterly destroyed, or only a few of them survived. The Trojans made their escape to the high parts of the island, and occupied mountains difficult to climb, being precipitous and protected by stakes. Even at the present day they are called Ilians, but in figure, in the fashion of their arms, and in their mode of living generally, they are like the Libyans. Not far distant from Sardinia is an island, called Cyrnus by the Greeks, but Corsica by the Libyans who inhabit it. A large part of the population, oppressed by civil strife, left it and came to Sardinia; there they took up their abode, confining themselves to the highlands. The Sardinians, however, call them by the name of Corsicans, which they brought with them from home.
    [9] When the Carthaginians were at the height of their sea power, they overcame all in Sardinia except the Ilians and Corsicans, who were kept from slavery by the strength of the mountains. These Carthaginians, like those who preceded them, founded cities in the island, namely, Caralis and Sulci. Some of the Carthaginian mercenaries, either Libyans or Iberians, quarrelled about the booty, mutinied in a passion, and added to the number of the highland settlers. Their name in the Cyrnian language is Balari, which is the Cyrnian word for fugitives. These are the races that dwell in Sardinia, and such was the method of their settlement.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    *Berun Honestly at this point I think you're a t-roll. I have read Attilo Mastino's works, and while the parts about classical archaeology are great his considerations about the prehistory of the island are to be dismissed, since they're not supported either by genetics or archaeology. Mastino is a classicist, prehistory and protohistory are not his field. For what concerns North African influence on the CULTURE of the islanders, no one denies it, what I think everyone in this thread is denying is that the cultural change came with a genetic change.
    As for Pausanias, yes of course he was trying to explain the ethnic differences in the island during his time (2nd century AD), but he didn't have the tools of a modern historian, archaeologist, geneticist, or ethnographer so he did it in a completely UNSCIENTIFIC way, you got that? Or maybe should we also believe Diodorus Siculus' account about the Greeks building all the nuraghi and nuragic temples, along with the first cities? Maybe we should believe Strabo's account that the first inhabitants of the islands were Etruscans? Or Solinus and Sallustius who wrote that Nora was founded by Iberians from Tartessos? or that the Iliesi were Trojan refugees? Or Simonide's account about a giant bronze automaton spreading terror on the island? Of course all this is nonsense not supported by modern archaeology in any way, leaving aside that these accounts often contradict eachother.
    I also don't get why you cut out the part of Pausanias' account which I wrote above, about the Trojans and Greeks settling the island and living south of the Tyrsus river, was it because it's too ridiculous for even you to believe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If a supervised admixture work with whites, mulattos and native Americans, the Camerunese are coming then from America. Admixture programs do that , I posted once a paper about it.
    I dont understand the reasoning. Camerunese are mostly Yoruba-like no? So what's the link with the Americas but, African-Americans with Yoruba-like themselves?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    You are tricky, the names (just 4 examples!) were found in the core of Sardinia (Aidomaggiore, Samugheo, Ula) except Posada which is in the east coast.
    I "am tricky"? You think I have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African and/or Lebanese hidden ancestry? I guess geneticists are tricky too, they must all have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African ancestry. As for those indigenous names, there are more than four examples, and I did clearly write that in the roman period they're mostly found in the internal parts of the island, while during the Middle Ages we found them very easily in all the parts of the islands, and they were often found as dynastic names of the Giudici, including those of the Giudicato of Cagliari.
    Anyway you've said that the Sardinians who rebelled had carthaginian names, that's not really true considering the Sardinians who rebelled were 90% of the time Iliensi, Balari or Corsi, all living in the Central and Northen parts of the island.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    you can't link R1b with steppe as one-eyed genetists do, we have R1b in Kura Araxes, Ganj Dareh, etc. without steppe.
    i know, but U152 was born 4000 years ago in steppe admixed populations north of the alps

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    R1b in Kura-Araxes is M415 so he was only tested for SNP's right? He could have been anything below P297? And what about Ganj Dareh? There was never R1b in Ganj Dareh or maybe he thinks Hajji Firuz?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    R1b in Kura-Araxes is M415 so he was only tested for SNP's right? He could have been anything below P297? And what about Ganj Dareh? There was never R1b in Ganj Dareh or maybe he thinks Hajji Firuz?
    I think KA was R1b-V1636. A very unsuccessful branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think KA was R1b-V1636. A very unsuccessful branch.
    Enough successful because R1b-V1636* in modern Turkey is one of the argument of R1b coming from South of the Caucasus / Iran no? I think the user Cplus is claiming being V1636* under his socketpuppet Raspberry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Enough successful because R1b-V1636* in modern Turkey is one of the argument of R1b coming from South of the Caucasus / Iran no? I think the user Cplus is claiming being V1636* under his socketpuppet Raspberry.
    I think that argument was originally based on the basal diversity on R1b-M269 found in eastern Turkey and Iran. But ancient DNA points to Europe. I find V1636* irrelevant/uninteresting personally as it looks like little more than some small wayward branch.

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