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Thread: New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think that argument was originally based on the basal diversity on R1b-M269 found in eastern Turkey and Iran. But ancient DNA points to Europe. I find V1636* irrelevant/uninteresting personally as it looks like little more than some small wayward branch.
    So i know i'm a newbie in Phylogenetic Trees, that changes every 3 years. But according to ISOGG, R1b-M269* is a dead branch, so what is basal diversity exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So i know i'm a newbie in Phylogenetic Trees, that changes every 3 years. But according to ISOGG, R1b-M269* is a dead branch, so what is basal diversity exactly?
    The original argument mainly relied not on SNPs but on Y-STR diversity. The latter is a bit more detailed, but its reliability seems to be a bit dubious as of now.

    Basal diversity doesn't necessarily have to be R1b-M269 precisely, but the sum of the basal nodes in the tree network. Looking at yfull, basal M269 distribution seems to be quite diffuse though, so it would be difficult to say anything about it just based on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    I "am tricky"? You think I have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African and/or Lebanese hidden ancestry? I guess geneticists are tricky too, they must all have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African ancestry. As for those indigenous names, there are more than four examples, and I did clearly write that in the roman period they're mostly found in the internal parts of the island, while during the Middle Ages we found them very easily in all the parts of the islands, and they were often found as dynastic names of the Giudici, including those of the Giudicato of Cagliari.
    Anyway you've said that the Sardinians who rebelled had carthaginian names, that's not really true considering the Sardinians who rebelled were 90% of the time Iliensi, Balari or Corsi, all living in the Central and Northen parts of the island.
    Just ignore, Pygmalion. When people stop using logic there's no point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The original argument mainly relied not on SNPs but on Y-STR diversity. The latter is a bit more detailed, but its reliability seems to be a bit dubious as of now.

    Basal diversity doesn't necessarily have to be R1b-M269 precisely, but the sum of the basal nodes in the tree network. Looking at yfull, basal M269 distribution seems to be quite diffuse though, so it would be difficult to say anything about it just based on that.
    I dont understand this.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    *Berun Honestly at this point I think you're a t-roll. I have read Attilo Mastino's works, and while the parts about classical archaeology are great his considerations about the prehistory of the island are to be dismissed, since they're not supported either by genetics or archaeology. Mastino is a classicist, prehistory and protohistory are not his field. For what concerns North African influence on the CULTURE of the islanders, no one denies it, what I think everyone in this thread is denying is that the cultural change came with a genetic change.
    As for Pausanias, yes of course he was trying to explain the ethnic differences in the island during his time (2nd century AD), but he didn't have the tools of a modern historian, archaeologist, geneticist, or ethnographer so he did it in a completely UNSCIENTIFIC way, you got that? Or maybe should we also believe Diodorus Siculus' account about the Greeks building all the nuraghi and nuragic temples, along with the first cities? Maybe we should believe Strabo's account that the first inhabitants of the islands were Etruscans? Or Solinus and Sallustius who wrote that Nora was founded by Iberians from Tartessos? or that the Iliesi were Trojan refugees? Or Simonide's account about a giant bronze automaton spreading terror on the island? Of course all this is nonsense not supported by modern archaeology in any way, leaving aside that these accounts often contradict eachother.
    I also don't get why you cut out the part of Pausanias' account which I wrote above, about the Trojans and Greeks settling the island and living south of the Tyrsus river, was it because it's too ridiculous for even you to believe?
    you don't understand nothing then, you even conclude that I'm a *****. What says Pausanias about Greeks and Iberians living in the Island in his time? nothing worth so I don't care about such legendary accounts. Please reread.
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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    From Pygmalion:
    But those are mostly names coming epigraphs belonging to the citizens of the coastal towns of the South West,
    As for those indigenous names, there are more than four examples, and I did clearly write that in the roman period they're mostly found in the internal parts of the island, while during the Middle Ages we found them very easily in all the parts of the islands, and they were often found as dynastic names of the Giudici, including those of the Giudicato of Cagliari.
    are you understanding anything about what I wrote? you are lumping everything.

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    I can respect a lot of things, but patronizing people who says " i understand ; you dont ".

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I dont understand this.
    If you were to arrange the defining mutations in a joing network like this, presumably the geographical distribution of the mutations closer to the origin *might* tell us something about the place where the branch first arose:



    In the case of M269 I think that might simply have been misleading. Perhaps some places/populations simply preserved Y-chromosome diversity better than others? I'm not sure.

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    0 out of 7 members found this post helpful.
    If nobody finds African autosomal in Sardinians it is by a lack of interest or worst by not willing to find it, from "Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny" by Paolo Francalacci et alii they found a 8% of typical Berber E subclades (L19 which is father of M81, and Z830). Jamaicans speak English with much less European Y-DNA.

    For J I can't try to distingish which came with Cardial Culture, which came with this newly found Aegean migration, or which came with Phoenicians.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Do you read other people's posts? Do you comprehend what you read?

    Who ever said here that there weren't E haplogroups from North Africa and the Near East in Sardinians? I wrote a whole post on it!

    Also, no one ever said there was NO autosomal trace. There's a bit of Iran Neo, and a bit of SSA in the non Gennargentu areas, although some of that may have come in separately.

    The point is that there's not very much. Is it because they weren't a huge mass migration and the men married local women over and over again until it was diluted and the biggest trace was the ydna? Probably. How much West Eurasian ancestry is there left in the R1b carrying SSA men of the Cameroons? Look at the 18% R1b in Sardinia, most of it U-152, and how little steppe remains.

    One would think you'd never read a genetics article in your life.

    I thought I'd give you another chance, but you persist with these straw man arguments and this complete refusal to learn the simplest precepts of population genetics.

    So, that's it. Consider yourself on ignore. I would suggest other people do the same.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Unbelievable.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Realy shocking, I was complaining about geneticists.
    Maybe I need to write posts in French as Italians don't get nothing when I write in English about migrations from the south.

    About possible migrations from the east providing Etruscans... I wouldn't try to explain in any language!
    ;)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Realy shocking, I was complaining about geneticists.
    Maybe I need to write posts in French as Italians don't get nothing when I write in English about migrations from the south.

    About possible migrations from the east providing Etruscans... I wouldn't try to explain in any language!
    ;)
    We even understand what you wish you could say about Sardinians and Italians, but you don’t.
    The problem is not the Language in your posts, but the content.
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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    We even understand what you wish you could say about Sardinians and Italians, but you don’t.
    The problem is not the Language in your posts, but the content.
    Lack of content, rather, but I get your point. :)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Realy shocking, I was complaining about geneticists.
    Maybe I need to write posts in French as Italians don't get nothing when I write in English about migrations from the south.

    About possible migrations from the east providing Etruscans... I wouldn't try to explain in any language!
    ;)
    Why would these geneticists on a personal level care whether Sardinians have Phoenician or Carthage ancestry and how much is in them? Most if not all of the authors aren't even Sardinian to begin with so why would they have Nordicist concerns about Sardinian genetics and middle eastern/North African ancestry (not implying they would have these racial concerns if they actually are Sardinian)
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Surely it is by the usual problems in this branch of science, not knowing the local history or getting advice from historians, being such laziness extended over the methodology choosen. Maybe many only care to publish raw results just to publish, who can set up a right peer review in this new discipline?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    And I thought it was only Davidski. Very enlightening.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    No doubt that U152 is the elephant in the room, but for some reason P312(xU152, L21) doesn't get a lot of mention but it's at non negligible frequencies throughout Italy.
    ie:
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2017.1409801

    There is no doubt though that Iran_Neo came from the eastern Mediterranean, because it's at this time (BA) that this component spreads to the Levant.
    This part of the study linked above is very intriguing:

    Northern Italy (Bergamo Valleys and plain, Tortona-Voghera and Borbera Valley) is characterised by an extremely high incidence of the R1b haplogroup (69.0%) when compared to all the other main haplogroups whose frequencies do not reach 10%. This haplogroup, which characterises a wide portion of the gene pool of the examined populations, shows a decreasing frequency pattern from North to South Italy, where it shows its lowest incidence (27.5%). This pattern is virtually totally ascribable to R1b-U152, the most represented R1b sub-lineage, whereas no frequency gradients were detected for the other sub-lineages. R1b-S116*(xU152, M529) is equally represented in all the Italian populations (Figure 3, dusty rose sector in secondary pies). This shows the highest frequencies in two isolated areas of Northern Italy: Borbera Valley (12.9%) and Bergamo Valleys (17.9%). The frequency peak is particularly noticeable in Bergamo Valleys in comparison to the neighbouring plain area (17.9% vs 3.8%, respectively, p < .01).
    [...]
    Thus, taking into account that the highest reported incidence of R1b-S116*(xU152, M529) is in Iberia (Adams et al., 2008 Adams SM, Bosch E, Balaresque PL, Ballereau SJ, Lee AC, Arroyo E, López-Parra AM, et al. 2008. The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula. Am J Hum Genet 83:725–736.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]; Myres et al., 2011 Myres NM, Rootsi S, Lin AA, Järve M, King RJ, Kutuev I, Cabrera VM, et al. 2011. A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe. Eur J Hum Genet 19:95–101.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]), its high frequency in the relatively isolated populations of the Bergamo and Borbera Valleys could represent the outcome of ancient gene flow from that area, possibly magnified by genetic drift. On the other hand, R1b-M412*, so far described only in Turkey, Iran, Cyprus and Crete (Myres et al., 2011 Myres NM, Rootsi S, Lin AA, Järve M, King RJ, Kutuev I, Cabrera VM, et al. 2011. A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe. Eur J Hum Genet 19:95–101.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]; Voskarides et al., 2016 Voskarides K, Mazières S, Hadjipanagi D, Di Cristofaro J, Ignatiou A, Stefanou C, King RJ, et al. 2016. Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements. Investig Genet 7:1.[Crossref], [PubMed], , [Google Scholar]), is observed in all the four Southern Italian samples, all from the ancient Magna Graecia area, but only sporadically in population groups from Northern Italy. The R1b-M412* Y chromosomes could, therefore, represent the legacy of an Eastern Mediterranean input associated with the early Hellenic colonisation, and/or the more recent Byzantine domination. This scenario is supported by the high frequency of R1b-M412* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecìa Salentina (13.4%), where haplogroup R1b-M412* probably reflects ancient colonisation events from Greek-speaking islands rather than continental Greece.
    Indeed, IMO it can theoretically indicate (especially considering the north-to-south gradient and the higher proportion of non-U152 subclades in mountainous areas) a pre-Italo-Celtic Indo-European (or Indo-Europeanized) incursion into Italy, linguistically replaced by "northern" Italic and Celtic peoples after the Bronze Age collapse (or not? We don't know exactly what linguistic branch peoples as Siculi, Sicel and other less well known illiterate tribes spoke, not to speak of the potentially highly divergent but eerily "IE-like" North Picene language). The decreasing frequency of U152 and its lower than average frequency in some mountainous areas suggest a second layer of R1b expansion into Italy, and considering that Italic and Celtic are both dated as languages that started to split into several sub-branches around ~1100 BC, it would make sense that these two languages and their corresponding peoples expanded and absorbed many others, IE or not, in a relatively late period (Late Urnfield and Early Hallstatt) - and these pre-Italo-Celtic peoples just did not leave any written attestation of their languages, because most of Europe was totally illiterate by then. In my opinion the U152 concentration in more northern parts of the Italian peninsula also suggests that its prevalence was not that ancient in Italy for it to spread more evenly.

    Another important part of the study refers to the R1a frequency. Was R1a-M17 (x M458), presumably R1a-Z93 (I think), an important Ancient Greek lineage, possibly one of "the Pontic-Caspian portion" of the Y-DNA makeup of Proto-Greeks together with R1b-Z2103, as opposed to the "Iran_Neo+Anatolian+Neo marker" J2a? That would fit the hypothesis that Proto-Greeks derived from Late Catacomb culture, which was IIRC mainly R1b-Z2103 like Yamnaya but already pressed by R1a-Z93 "northern" tribes that would eventually mix with it to form the Srubnaya (probably Indo-Iranian or even Proto-Iranian).

    The R1a haplogroup is observed along the entire Peninsula. With the exception of the Tortona-Voghera sample, it displays lower frequencies in the North and in the Centre in comparison with the southern populations, especially those of the Ionian Coast (8.6% in Ionian Calabria, 5.9% in Apulia and 15.8% in Grecìa Salentina). R1a-M17 represents an important component of the modern gene pool of Greece, where it reaches its highest frequencies (16.3% and 22.0%, in mainland Greece and in Thracia, respectively) (Battaglia et al., 2009 Battaglia V, Fornarino S, Al-Zahery N, Olivieri A, Pala M, Myres NM, King RJ, et al. 2009. Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe. Eur J Hum Genet 17:820–830.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]; Heraclides et al., 2017 Heraclides A, Bashiardes E, Fernández-Domínguez E, Bertoncini S, Chimonas M, Christofi V, King J, et al. 2017. Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots. PLoS One 12:e0179474.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]). Taking into account that it is found virtually only as R1a-M17*(xM458) in both the Southern Italian samples and in mainland Greece, it is likely that R1a-M17* is a signature of the Southern Balkan (mainland Greece) influence into Southern Italy. Thus, differently to haplogroup R1b-M412*, R1a-M17* seems a hallmark of a significant male seaborne input from Balkan populations towards the eastern coast of Southern Italy.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This part of the study linked above is very intriguing:


    Indeed, IMO it can theoretically indicate (especially considering the north-to-south gradient and the higher proportion of non-U152 subclades in mountainous areas) a pre-Italo-Celtic Indo-European (or Indo-Europeanized) incursion into Italy, linguistically replaced by "northern" Italic and Celtic peoples after the Bronze Age collapse (or not? We don't know exactly what linguistic branch peoples as Siculi, Sicel and other less well known illiterate tribes spoke, not to speak of the potentially highly divergent but eerily "IE-like" North Picene language). The decreasing frequency of U152 and its lower than average frequency in some mountainous areas suggest a second layer of R1b expansion into Italy, and considering that Italic and Celtic are both dated as languages that started to split into several sub-branches around ~1100 BC, it would make sense that these two languages and their corresponding peoples expanded and absorbed many others, IE or not, in a relatively late period (Late Urnfield and Early Hallstatt) - and these pre-Italo-Celtic peoples just did not leave any written attestation of their languages, because most of Europe was totally illiterate by then. In my opinion the U152 concentration in more northern parts of the Italian peninsula also suggests that its prevalence was not that ancient in Italy for it to spread more evenly.
    I largely agree. I don't, however, think it came from Iberia.

    I always thought this is the "Ligurian" element in Italy, which once covered broad swathes of the Northwest, stretching to the North Central.



    I do think the lack of penetration of U-152 to the south, and indeed some of the autosomal differences are also partly the result of the fact that the area covered by the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was separated politically from the north for at least 1000 years. That also explains the "amalgamation" in the south which makes them more similar to one another than areas in the north, very separated from one another as well as the south for the same 1000 years.

    The genetic "break" in the cline is just south of Rome.



    It would be very interesting if they "were" that subclade of R1a given its relative scarcity in Greece today, and would be further support for the smallness of the original nucleus.

    This wasn't an isolated island like Sardinia where a ydna line can drift to prominence so easily.

    Sorry. I'm out of juice temporarily. I'll hit you up later.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Why is ancient Italy and Rome so understudied despite proportionately being way more important to european history than obscure swamps
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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    We don't have the money or the facilities and Northern European scholars are more interested in Northern European ethnogenesis. That's the glib answer.

    Reich has been more interested in the "big" picture.

    A Spanish group was supposedly doing one, but so is Reich, at long last. Thank goodness for the latter, as I trust them to do a good job.

    I also think it's much more complicated than Northern and Central European genetics to be honest. How do you disentangle all the different strands and when they came and with whom? Balkan genetics is just as complicated, and we don't have a comprehensive look at that through time either. The likely political reactions likely put people off the latter. The Italian public would embrace it no matter what.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    After finding clear Y-DNA African among Sardinians, I have checked the monster admixture graph of Genetiker, it's not peer reviewed but being so big and with so many pops it is much better than children-level admixtures with few pops which are prone to find up false admixtures. In such graph, from 12 Sardinians, they show 5% dark blue (WHG), 10% blue, 70% ligh blue (EEF), 3% green (Iran) and 7% cyan, this cyan is lacking among Bronze Age Asia Minor, Mycaenians and Minoans, but actual Tunisians have a share of 40%, actual Lebanese have a share of 25% and Lebanon MBA a 30%, ailas an aficionado can find easily such genetic facts which support what many classic and modern historians tell (!!).

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    modern Greeks have it, as all Southern Europeans

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    Yes, let's by all means go with someone who finds European in South American Indians who are blonde and blue eyed.

    It never ends.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    modern Greeks have it, as all Southern Europeans

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    By Turks and Arabs maybe?

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