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Thread: New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Why is ancient Italy and Rome so understudied despite proportionately being way more important to european history than obscure swamps
    To find Real early Roman DNA is a bit complicated, Cremation was popular until the rise of Christianity, and by that time around 1 million people lived in Rome from all over the Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By Turks and Arabs maybe?
    how come?

    the altaic component is so low in Greece, lower than N and W Europe.
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    It must have some autosomal effect either as Turks ruled the Balkans five centuries, otherwise we might take into acount the Byzantine empire and little and free movements inside it, the Roman empire, the same, Alexander the Great empire, even if colonies were in Asia, but we can think about movements of artisans into the Balkans, or then the dark and shadowed epoch of the Sea Peoples, but it was mainly an Aegean expansion to me.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Eitherway the Altaic in Turks is lesser than the Levantine? the proportion would be keept or even be less depending on the Turkish region and momentum.

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    Wasn't after the Caucasus paper, Reich doing research on Prehistoric Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition to these Bronze Age papers on Northern Italy and the OP one, there are lots of others on the Northern Bronze Age etc., and another one on the Caucasus. They're not revealing very much in the abstract. Hope we get it soon.

    "Svend Hansen1, Sabine Reinhold1, Wolfgang Haak2, Chuan-Chao Wang21Deutsches Archäologisches Institut, Eurasien Abteilung2Max Planck Institut für Menschheitsgeschichte, Department of Archaeogenetics"

    "At the interface of culture and biology – First results from a paleogenetic transect through BronzeAge populations of the Caucasus"

    "The Caucasus is one of the most important geographical joints in Western Eurasia. Linking Europe, Western Asiaand the Eurasian steppe zone, this region today is one of the genetically and linguistically most diverse spotsof Eurasia. It is easy to imagine that repeated population influx and drain, but similarly compartmentalisationin the remote mountain valley is behind this modern situation.Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations play an important role in this scenario, as they represent thefirst epochs of formations, which can be regarded either as associated ‘cultures’ and/or coherent biologicalpopulations. A first study on the paleogenetic background of 50 individuals from the 5th to the 2nd millenniumBC, which represent all cultural formations of Bronze Age Caucasia, give a first insight into highly complexscenarios of interaction. The paleogenetic perspective could proof the presence of populations with differentgenetic-make ups and different biological vectors of formation among these individuals. Affiliation bymaterial cultural and other archaeological attributes, however, revealed epochs of interaction, where culturaland biological borders were crossed, and those, where no population exchange seemed to have happenedamong the neighbouring inhabitants of one area. This region thus allows to study in detail the mixing andinterdigitation of people, their materiality and cultural systems and challenge many of the too simple modelsdeveloped for another interface of the Eurasian steppe zone those directed towards Europe."
    That is the Wang paper. Check the authors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Greek and Armenian were once the same language. If Greek speakers came from Balkans where did Armenians came from? Clearly Greek speakers and Armenian were Anatolian populations
    Phrygian is even closer to Greek and several classical author mention Phrygians coming from the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By Turks and Arabs maybe?
    No idea, but even Germans and some prehistoric Europeans (1 Salzmunde, 1 Funnelbeaker) have some of it

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Phrygian is even closer to Greek and several classical author mention Phrygians coming from the Balkans.
    Yes they did and yes they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    No idea, but even Germans and some prehistoric Europeans (1 Salzmunde, 1 Funnelbeaker) have some of it

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    well, a 10% of Germans have Turkish ancestry, so... for the Neolithic cases in which paper appear?

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    genetiker, the admixture graph

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I largely agree. I don't, however, think it came from Iberia.

    I always thought this is the "Ligurian" element in Italy, which once covered broad swathes of the Northwest, stretching to the North Central.



    I do think the lack of penetration of U-152 to the south, and indeed some of the autosomal differences are also partly the result of the fact that the area covered by the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was separated politically from the north for at least 1000 years. That also explains the "amalgamation" in the south which makes them more similar to one another than areas in the north, very separated from one another as well as the south for the same 1000 years.

    The genetic "break" in the cline is just south of Rome.



    It would be very interesting if they "were" that subclade of R1a given its relative scarcity in Greece today, and would be further support for the smallness of the original nucleus.

    This wasn't an isolated island like Sardinia where a ydna line can drift to prominence so easily.

    Sorry. I'm out of juice temporarily. I'll hit you up later.
    1) Yes, I also do not think it came from Iberia directly, rather I think it is more likely that both Iberia and Italy were impacted by the same influx that probably came from France via Rhine Bell Beaker-derived cultures. In my opinion it is possible that those "uncertain" languages like Lusitanian, Ligurian, Venetic and Siculian are the remnants of this first wave of "R1b-L51" BB-derived Indo-European, though relative re-convergence to Celtic and/or Italic may have happened during the Iron Age (not very different from how Galician, Leonese, Aragonese and other Iberian languages clearly converged slowly to become more Castillian-like, or Bokmal Norwegian became clearly Danish-like after centuries of influence).

    2) I don't know if I understood your point very well, but do you think that the U152 expansion was still happening reasonably late in history, during the Middle Ages, and it was not mainly completed by the time of the Italic migrations and later the Roman expansion? I concluded something like that based on your assertion that part of the genetic differentiation between the two regions as far as U152 is concerned may be partly attributed to the relative and reciprocal isolation for much of the Middle Ages and Modern Era. Your point about how the southern population is much more similar to one another than the northern population, which has signs of more genetic isolation and drift, is very interesting, indeed.

    3) I was maybe a bit too enthusiastic and hasty to assume that R1a(x M458) means necessarily R1a-Z93. It may also include or even be mostly composed of R1a-Z283 clades except for the "typical Slavic" M458, and still a brother of R1a-Z93. R1a-Z282 (x Z93) seems to be much more common in Greece than Z93 alone, though much of it may have come with Slavic (and maybe some Turkic/Avar too) input. But I still think that the heavy frequency of R1a (x M458) in the South Italian samples of that study may also suggest to us that the Ancient Greeks already had some of that non-M458 R1a in their original gene pool, not just the often speculated R1b-Z2103, J2a and J2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    1) Yes, I also do not think it came from Iberia directly, rather I think it is more likely that both Iberia and Italy were impacted by the same influx that probably came from France via Rhine Bell Beaker-derived cultures. In my opinion it is possible that those "uncertain" languages like Lusitanian, Ligurian, Venetic and Siculian are the remnants of this first wave of "R1b-L51" BB-derived Indo-European, though relative re-convergence to Celtic and/or Italic may have happened during the Iron Age (not very different from how Galician, Leonese, Aragonese and other Iberian languages clearly converged slowly to become more Castillian-like, or Bokmal Norwegian became clearly Danish-like after centuries of influence).

    2) I don't know if I understood your point very well, but do you think that the U152 expansion was still happening reasonably late in history, during the Middle Ages, and it was not mainly completed by the time of the Italic migrations and later the Roman expansion? I concluded something like that based on your assertion that part of the genetic differentiation between the two regions as far as U152 is concerned may be partly attributed to the relative and reciprocal isolation for much of the Middle Ages and Modern Era. Your point about how the southern population is much more similar to one another than the northern population, which has signs of more genetic isolation and drift, is very interesting, indeed.

    3) I was maybe a bit too enthusiastic and hasty to assume that R1a(x M458) means necessarily R1a-Z93. It may also include or even be mostly composed of R1a-Z283 clades except for the "typical Slavic" M458, and still a brother of R1a-Z93. R1a-Z282 (x Z93) seems to be much more common in Greece than Z93 alone, though much of it may have come with Slavic (and maybe some Turkic/Avar too) input. But I still think that the heavy frequency of R1a (x M458) in the South Italian samples of that study may also suggest to us that the Ancient Greeks already had some of that non-M458 R1a in their original gene pool, not just the often speculated R1b-Z2103, J2a and J2b.
    What's interesting is that R1b-DF27 was found in a Cogotas sample 1700-1000BC, wich make it likely that Bell Beaker's where culturally and transitional between Western Europe Neolithic and Italo-Celtic Western Europe. Bell beaker lingua franca probably could be some pre-italo-celtic wich would give daughter language sometimes more related to the Italic family and sometimes more related to the Celtic family. Such hypothetic languages could be, as you said, Lusitanian, Ligurian, Ancient Belgian, Britain Pictish and Venetic. All those languages have the particularity to be related with IE languages, but undirect with Italic or Celtic ones. And to come from strong Bell Beaker strongholds.

    Edit: What i was trying to say with my R1b-DF27 comment is that 1700-1000BC is a fork wich seems to be more correlated with Italo-Celtic ( Urnfield/Hallstat ) than Bell Beaker ( even if Cogotas I is a site think to be related with BB? ). Wich also make sense looking the fact that his brother R1b-S28 is mostly an Alpine lineage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    If you were to arrange the defining mutations in a joing network like this, presumably the geographical distribution of the mutations closer to the origin *might* tell us something about the place where the branch first arose:



    In the case of M269 I think that might simply have been misleading. Perhaps some places/populations simply preserved Y-chromosome diversity better than others? I'm not sure.
    I'm still confused, i just read a paper from a certain Clyde Ahmad Winters about the origin of R1-M173 in Africa and in the Conclusions he says:
    " The greatest diversity of haplogroup R is found in Africa, not Asia ". So what's all this diversity, how is it really relevant if one can say it's in Iran and an other can say it's in Africa?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    1) Yes, I also do not think it came from Iberia directly, rather I think it is more likely that both Iberia and Italy were impacted by the same influx that probably came from France via Rhine Bell Beaker-derived cultures. In my opinion it is possible that those "uncertain" languages like Lusitanian, Ligurian, Venetic and Siculian are the remnants of this first wave of "R1b-L51" BB-derived Indo-European, though relative re-convergence to Celtic and/or Italic may have happened during the Iron Age (not very different from how Galician, Leonese, Aragonese and other Iberian languages clearly converged slowly to become more Castillian-like, or Bokmal Norwegian became clearly Danish-like after centuries of influence).

    2) I don't know if I understood your point very well, but do you think that the U152 expansion was still happening reasonably late in history, during the Middle Ages, and it was not mainly completed by the time of the Italic migrations and later the Roman expansion? I concluded something like that based on your assertion that part of the genetic differentiation between the two regions as far as U152 is concerned may be partly attributed to the relative and reciprocal isolation for much of the Middle Ages and Modern Era. Your point about how the southern population is much more similar to one another than the northern population, which has signs of more genetic isolation and drift, is very interesting, indeed.

    3) I was maybe a bit too enthusiastic and hasty to assume that R1a(x M458) means necessarily R1a-Z93. It may also include or even be mostly composed of R1a-Z283 clades except for the "typical Slavic" M458, and still a brother of R1a-Z93. R1a-Z282 (x Z93) seems to be much more common in Greece than Z93 alone, though much of it may have come with Slavic (and maybe some Turkic/Avar too) input. But I still think that the heavy frequency of R1a (x M458) in the South Italian samples of that study may also suggest to us that the Ancient Greeks already had some of that non-M458 R1a in their original gene pool, not just the often speculated R1b-Z2103, J2a and J2b.
    1. I completely agree. I used to recount that Portuguese sometimes sounded to me a bit like the Ligurian dialect, and that's why I found it relatively easy to pick up. :) I don't know. Maybe that was my imagination.


    2. Until we have the ancient dna it's difficult to estimate how much U-152 might have made it into the deep south in the Bronze Age, let's say. Could it have been very much an elite migration? Or, was there a more significant amount which might have been diluted by the Greek migrations as well as the Iran Neo "like" migrations which also came in the Bronze Age? Any subsequent migrations also have to be considered, even if it's only a few percent.. Even with ancient dna it may be difficult to come to firm conclusions.

    All I was getting at is that other than the "Lombard" migrations into Sicily, you didn't get much movement of more "northern" clades into the south after the Roman Era. There also was no movement south to north. The south, including Sicily, was either part of the Byzantine Empire, or the Normans, or later the Spanish. Whoever ruled it, it was largely one unit, which permitted internal migration but inhibited migration to or from the north.

    As I said, the Lombards used to pacify the island after the Moorish control of about 200 years is another story.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards_of_Sicily

    I've met Sicilians here who have ancestors whom they've traced back to my own Liguria and Emilia in the Middle Ages, very high U-152 areas. They came from Piemonte and French areas like Brittany and Normandy as well, although that would have brought a different pattern of yDna.

    One of the things which has always struck me about Italian genetics is indeed that southerners are pretty similar to one another. Northerners are more different from one another from what I can see, as well as obviously different from southerners. Part of that is different migration waves, the Apennines which separate west from east, but part of it is also that for most of the time we were separated into different kingdoms, city-states etc.

    Just a small personal example: in all the time I've been on 23andme, all my close legitimate "matches" are from northwest Italy and Tuscany, none from Lazio south, but also none from Venezia or even eastern Lombardia, Marche, or even Romagna. It's amazing.

    3.) I don't know what R1a (non M-458) the Mycenaeans might have carried, if indeed they carried an R1a lineage rather than the often cited R1b one, but whatever one it might be, there's very little of it in Greece.
    Last edited by Angela; 12-12-18 at 02:37.


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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I'm still confused, i just read a paper from a certain Clyde Ahmad Winters about the origin of R1-M173 in Africa and in the Conclusions he says:
    " The greatest diversity of haplogroup R is found in Africa, not Asia ". So what's all this diversity, how is it really relevant if one can say it's in Iran and an other can say it's in Africa?
    I can't tell if you're joking? Clyde Winters' claims are generally fictional. Usually wildly fictional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    I can't tell if you're joking? Clyde Winters' claims are generally fictional. Usually wildly fictional.
    I dont joke. That's an article that i've found googling " what is haplogroup diversity? ". He doesn't look fictional, i mean it's not a fake, it's a real scientist right? How could he faked some results?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Lol no he's not a scientist. Check out his posts on EgyptSearch, they're hilarious

    For instance here (you have to scroll down) for the origins of white people:
    http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...;f=15;t=012676

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    well, a 10% of Germans have Turkish ancestry, so... for the Neolithic cases in which paper appear?
    Two farmers between a hundred may be a problem with the running program or with the quality of samples, the last resorts would be a caste or a component Levantine-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I'm still confused, i just read a paper from a certain Clyde Ahmad Winters about the origin of R1-M173 in Africa and in the Conclusions he says:
    " The greatest diversity of haplogroup R is found in Africa, not Asia ". So what's all this diversity, how is it really relevant if one can say it's in Iran and an other can say it's in Africa?
    Don't even waste your time with anything written by the "independent researcher" Clyde Ahmad Winters. He is clearly a strongly Afrocentric revisionist author who always makes everything possible (not necessarily scientifically sound, to say the least) to tie genetics, archaeology and linguistics to Africa and more specifically West Africa (certainly nothing personal, right?), and he talks too much of subjects he is not fully prepared to analyse (he is not a geneticist, but writes papers - not peer-reviewed of course - about it). Much of what he says borders on the bizarre. If you don't believe me, see the list of his papers in Research.gate (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Clyde_Winters): Paleoamericans came from Africa, Pre-Columbian black Mexican tribes, first Europeans were Subsaharan Africans, first European farmers came from Africa, Olmec language was a Mande (African) language, R1-M173 was spread to Eurasia by people of Kush, Dravidian people and agriculture came from Africa, Tocharian was actually a Dravidian language... That's more than enough for conclusions. Just ignore his texts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Lol no he's not a scientist. Check out his posts on EgyptSearch, they're hilarious

    For instance here (you have to scroll down) for the origins of white people:
    http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...;f=15;t=012676
    Wow I can't believe an Afrocentric person in that thread had the guts to say this ridiculously bigoted sentence: Caucasians as a whole are more of genetically recessive inbred mutant population in comparison with their Africoid genetic superiors. They learned social darwinism and racism from the whites really well, huh? :-o

    As for Clyde Winter, all I can say is: ROFLMAO. :-D He really believes no white people existed at all 4800 years ago and they come from black people who had lived in caves, isolated from the blacks on the ground since the LGM, and the cavemen left them to colonize Eurasia from the Caucasus. People who lived inside caves for millennia! That requires at least a lot of creativity! LOL



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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    I would think the easy counter to Winter's claims would be how Subsaharan Africans spent so much history as being conquered and/or enslaved by MENAs or Euros.
    It's a waste of time to argue against patently ludicrous claims, those making them did not arrive there by reasoning. And talking about who conquered and oppressed who in the past is not a good way to begin a rational debate in any case.

    Besides, as any rabid ethnocentrist will explain to you, when their superior and virtuous people have been defeated by their naturally inferior enemies, it can only be possible because those enemies are especially evil and treacherous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Don't even waste your time with anything written by the "independent researcher" Clyde Ahmad Winters. He is clearly a strongly Afrocentric revisionist author who always makes everything possible (not necessarily scientifically sound, to say the least) to tie genetics, archaeology and linguistics to Africa and more specifically West Africa (certainly nothing personal, right?), and he talks too much of subjects he is not fully prepared to analyse (he is not a geneticist, but writes papers - not peer-reviewed of course - about it). Much of what he says borders on the bizarre. If you don't believe me, see the list of his papers in Research.gate (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Clyde_Winters): Paleoamericans came from Africa, Pre-Columbian black Mexican tribes, first Europeans were Subsaharan Africans, first European farmers came from Africa, Olmec language was a Mande (African) language, R1-M173 was spread to Eurasia by people of Kush, Dravidian people and agriculture came from Africa, Tocharian was actually a Dravidian language... That's more than enough for conclusions. Just ignore his texts.
    Yeah, i was more concerned about the " more genetic diversity " than the ethnic story behind it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    Pan troglodytes have at least as much genetic diversity as homo sapiens.
    I honestly need to ask you: what do you exactly mean in this context? I just hope it's not what I am thinking...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    The point was even if Winters claims on genetic diversity were so then it wouldn't lead to some superiority or whatever you call it.
    No i think the point was " R1 came from Africa, therefore, Europeans are mostly R1, so ,most Europeans are whitened Africans, therefore, real Africans are superior than Europeans " Something on those lines.

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