New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

How exactly should Steppe be false? If they found Steppe, they found EHG. You dont need pure EHG. If we need to imagine Steppe in Sardinians is " shared ancestry " with CHG, we can at the same time reevaluate most of ancestral DNA.

If a supervised admixture work with whites, mulattos and native Americans, the Camerunese are coming then from America. Admixture programs do that , I posted once a paper about it.
 
I don't think anyone here doubts that the Carthaginians conquered Sardinia, I only doubt that they left much of a genetic impact because that's what the genetic evidence suggests.

you can read per example Mastino, Attilio a cura di (1985) L'Africa romana: atti del 2. Convegno di
studio, 14-16 dicembre 1984, Sassari (Italia). Sassari, Edizioni Gallizzi. 286
p., [16] c. di tav.: ill. (Pubblicazioni del Dipartimento di Storia
dell'Università di Sassari, 5).
http://eprints.uniss.it/3177/

That's Pausanias referring to the mythical past of Sardinia. He said that the North of the Tyrsus river lived the Libyans and the natives, and South of the Tyrsus lived the Trojans and Greeks, and that they avoided fighting because they were equal in number, of course this can't be taken as a historical account.

of course Pausanias is writting about legendary migrations that are simply legendary... but you must realize that such legends were set up to explain the actual ethnic composition of the island, can you understand what I mean?

[2] The first sailors to cross to the island are said to have been Libyans. Their leader was Sardus, son of Maceris, the Maceris surnamed Heracles by the Egyptians and Libyans. Maceris himself was celebrated chiefly for his journey to Delphi, but Sardus it was who led the Libyans to Ichnussa, and after him the island was renamed. However, the Libyan army did not expel the aboriginals, who received the invaders as settlers through compulsion rather than in goodwill. Neither the Libyans nor the native population knew how to build cities. They dwelt in scattered groups, where chance found them a home in cabins or caves. ... However, many years afterwards the Libyans crossed again to the island with a stronger army, and began a war against the Greeks. The Greeks were utterly destroyed, or only a few of them survived. The Trojans made their escape to the high parts of the island, and occupied mountains difficult to climb, being precipitous and protected by stakes. Even at the present day they are called Ilians, but in figure, in the fashion of their arms, and in their mode of living generally, they are like the Libyans. Not far distant from Sardinia is an island, called Cyrnus by the Greeks, but Corsica by the Libyans who inhabit it. A large part of the population, oppressed by civil strife, left it and came to Sardinia; there they took up their abode, confining themselves to the highlands. The Sardinians, however, call them by the name of Corsicans, which they brought with them from home.
[9] When the Carthaginians were at the height of their sea power, they overcame all in Sardinia except the Ilians and Corsicans, who were kept from slavery by the strength of the mountains. These Carthaginians, like those who preceded them, founded cities in the island, namely, Caralis and Sulci. Some of the Carthaginian mercenaries, either Libyans or Iberians, quarrelled about the booty, mutinied in a passion, and added to the number of the highland settlers. Their name in the Cyrnian language is Balari, which is the Cyrnian word for fugitives. These are the races that dwell in Sardinia, and such was the method of their settlement.
 
*Berun Honestly at this point I think you're a t-roll. I have read Attilo Mastino's works, and while the parts about classical archaeology are great his considerations about the prehistory of the island are to be dismissed, since they're not supported either by genetics or archaeology. Mastino is a classicist, prehistory and protohistory are not his field. For what concerns North African influence on the CULTURE of the islanders, no one denies it, what I think everyone in this thread is denying is that the cultural change came with a genetic change.
As for Pausanias, yes of course he was trying to explain the ethnic differences in the island during his time (2nd century AD), but he didn't have the tools of a modern historian, archaeologist, geneticist, or ethnographer so he did it in a completely UNSCIENTIFIC way, you got that? Or maybe should we also believe Diodorus Siculus' account about the Greeks building all the nuraghi and nuragic temples, along with the first cities? Maybe we should believe Strabo's account that the first inhabitants of the islands were Etruscans? Or Solinus and Sallustius who wrote that Nora was founded by Iberians from Tartessos? or that the Iliesi were Trojan refugees? Or Simonide's account about a giant bronze automaton spreading terror on the island? Of course all this is nonsense not supported by modern archaeology in any way, leaving aside that these accounts often contradict eachother.
I also don't get why you cut out the part of Pausanias' account which I wrote above, about the Trojans and Greeks settling the island and living south of the Tyrsus river, was it because it's too ridiculous for even you to believe?
 
If a supervised admixture work with whites, mulattos and native Americans, the Camerunese are coming then from America. Admixture programs do that , I posted once a paper about it.

I dont understand the reasoning. Camerunese are mostly Yoruba-like no? So what's the link with the Americas but, African-Americans with Yoruba-like themselves?
 
You are tricky, the names (just 4 examples!) were found in the core of Sardinia (Aidomaggiore, Samugheo, Ula) except Posada which is in the east coast.
I "am tricky"? You think I have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African and/or Lebanese hidden ancestry? I guess geneticists are tricky too, they must all have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African ancestry. As for those indigenous names, there are more than four examples, and I did clearly write that in the roman period they're mostly found in the internal parts of the island, while during the Middle Ages we found them very easily in all the parts of the islands, and they were often found as dynastic names of the Giudici, including those of the Giudicato of Cagliari.
Anyway you've said that the Sardinians who rebelled had carthaginian names, that's not really true considering the Sardinians who rebelled were 90% of the time Iliensi, Balari or Corsi, all living in the Central and Northen parts of the island.
 
you can't link R1b with steppe as one-eyed genetists do, we have R1b in Kura Araxes, Ganj Dareh, etc. without steppe.
i know, but U152 was born 4000 years ago in steppe admixed populations north of the alps

Utilizzando Tapatalk
 
R1b in Kura-Araxes is M415 so he was only tested for SNP's right? He could have been anything below P297? And what about Ganj Dareh? There was never R1b in Ganj Dareh or maybe he thinks Hajji Firuz?
 
R1b in Kura-Araxes is M415 so he was only tested for SNP's right? He could have been anything below P297? And what about Ganj Dareh? There was never R1b in Ganj Dareh or maybe he thinks Hajji Firuz?

I think KA was R1b-V1636. A very unsuccessful branch.
 
I think KA was R1b-V1636. A very unsuccessful branch.

Enough successful because R1b-V1636* in modern Turkey is one of the argument of R1b coming from South of the Caucasus / Iran no? I think the user Cplus is claiming being V1636* under his socketpuppet Raspberry.
 
Enough successful because R1b-V1636* in modern Turkey is one of the argument of R1b coming from South of the Caucasus / Iran no? I think the user Cplus is claiming being V1636* under his socketpuppet Raspberry.

I think that argument was originally based on the basal diversity on R1b-M269 found in eastern Turkey and Iran. But ancient DNA points to Europe. I find V1636* irrelevant/uninteresting personally as it looks like little more than some small wayward branch.
 
I think that argument was originally based on the basal diversity on R1b-M269 found in eastern Turkey and Iran. But ancient DNA points to Europe. I find V1636* irrelevant/uninteresting personally as it looks like little more than some small wayward branch.

So i know i'm a newbie in Phylogenetic Trees, that changes every 3 years. But according to ISOGG, R1b-M269* is a dead branch, so what is basal diversity exactly?
 
So i know i'm a newbie in Phylogenetic Trees, that changes every 3 years. But according to ISOGG, R1b-M269* is a dead branch, so what is basal diversity exactly?

The original argument mainly relied not on SNPs but on Y-STR diversity. The latter is a bit more detailed, but its reliability seems to be a bit dubious as of now.

Basal diversity doesn't necessarily have to be R1b-M269 precisely, but the sum of the basal nodes in the tree network. Looking at yfull, basal M269 distribution seems to be quite diffuse though, so it would be difficult to say anything about it just based on that.
 
I "am tricky"? You think I have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African and/or Lebanese hidden ancestry? I guess geneticists are tricky too, they must all have a plot to hide Sardinians' North African ancestry. As for those indigenous names, there are more than four examples, and I did clearly write that in the roman period they're mostly found in the internal parts of the island, while during the Middle Ages we found them very easily in all the parts of the islands, and they were often found as dynastic names of the Giudici, including those of the Giudicato of Cagliari.
Anyway you've said that the Sardinians who rebelled had carthaginian names, that's not really true considering the Sardinians who rebelled were 90% of the time Iliensi, Balari or Corsi, all living in the Central and Northen parts of the island.

Just ignore, Pygmalion. When people stop using logic there's no point.
 
The original argument mainly relied not on SNPs but on Y-STR diversity. The latter is a bit more detailed, but its reliability seems to be a bit dubious as of now.

Basal diversity doesn't necessarily have to be R1b-M269 precisely, but the sum of the basal nodes in the tree network. Looking at yfull, basal M269 distribution seems to be quite diffuse though, so it would be difficult to say anything about it just based on that.

I dont understand this.
 
*Berun Honestly at this point I think you're a t-roll. I have read Attilo Mastino's works, and while the parts about classical archaeology are great his considerations about the prehistory of the island are to be dismissed, since they're not supported either by genetics or archaeology. Mastino is a classicist, prehistory and protohistory are not his field. For what concerns North African influence on the CULTURE of the islanders, no one denies it, what I think everyone in this thread is denying is that the cultural change came with a genetic change.
As for Pausanias, yes of course he was trying to explain the ethnic differences in the island during his time (2nd century AD), but he didn't have the tools of a modern historian, archaeologist, geneticist, or ethnographer so he did it in a completely UNSCIENTIFIC way, you got that? Or maybe should we also believe Diodorus Siculus' account about the Greeks building all the nuraghi and nuragic temples, along with the first cities? Maybe we should believe Strabo's account that the first inhabitants of the islands were Etruscans? Or Solinus and Sallustius who wrote that Nora was founded by Iberians from Tartessos? or that the Iliesi were Trojan refugees? Or Simonide's account about a giant bronze automaton spreading terror on the island? Of course all this is nonsense not supported by modern archaeology in any way, leaving aside that these accounts often contradict eachother.
I also don't get why you cut out the part of Pausanias' account which I wrote above, about the Trojans and Greeks settling the island and living south of the Tyrsus river, was it because it's too ridiculous for even you to believe?

you don't understand nothing then, you even conclude that I'm a *****. What says Pausanias about Greeks and Iberians living in the Island in his time? nothing worth so I don't care about such legendary accounts. Please reread.
 
From Pygmalion:
But those are mostly names coming epigraphs belonging to the citizens of the coastal towns of the South West,
As for those indigenous names, there are more than four examples, and I did clearly write that in the roman period they're mostly found in the internal parts of the island, while during the Middle Ages we found them very easily in all the parts of the islands, and they were often found as dynastic names of the Giudici, including those of the Giudicato of Cagliari.
are you understanding anything about what I wrote? you are lumping everything.
 
I can respect a lot of things, but patronizing people who says " i understand ; you dont ". :(
 
I dont understand this.

If you were to arrange the defining mutations in a joing network like this, presumably the geographical distribution of the mutations closer to the origin *might* tell us something about the place where the branch first arose:

F3.large.jpg


In the case of M269 I think that might simply have been misleading. Perhaps some places/populations simply preserved Y-chromosome diversity better than others? I'm not sure.
 
If nobody finds African autosomal in Sardinians it is by a lack of interest or worst by not willing to find it, from "Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny" by Paolo Francalacci et alii they found a 8% of typical Berber E subclades (L19 which is father of M81, and Z830). Jamaicans speak English with much less European Y-DNA.

For J I can't try to distingish which came with Cardial Culture, which came with this newly found Aegean migration, or which came with Phoenicians.
 
^^Do you read other people's posts? Do you comprehend what you read?

Who ever said here that there weren't E haplogroups from North Africa and the Near East in Sardinians? I wrote a whole post on it!

Also, no one ever said there was NO autosomal trace. There's a bit of Iran Neo, and a bit of SSA in the non Gennargentu areas, although some of that may have come in separately.

The point is that there's not very much. Is it because they weren't a huge mass migration and the men married local women over and over again until it was diluted and the biggest trace was the ydna? Probably. How much West Eurasian ancestry is there left in the R1b carrying SSA men of the Cameroons? Look at the 18% R1b in Sardinia, most of it U-152, and how little steppe remains.

One would think you'd never read a genetics article in your life.

I thought I'd give you another chance, but you persist with these straw man arguments and this complete refusal to learn the simplest precepts of population genetics.

So, that's it. Consider yourself on ignore. I would suggest other people do the same.
 

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