Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 317

Thread: New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

  1. #51
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,913
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,913, Level: 12
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Actually just out of pure excitement, if they find either South Caucasian L23 older than Yamnaya or Western European L51 older than Yamnaya, I'll give the first person to quote this $10 via PayPal.

    This is so ridiculously pointless, but god I would literally feel so vindicated.
    Yes. And like I have been saying for years now, once L23 is found in shulaveri South Caucasus, EVERYBODY knew all along that it was the case. You included.
    It's the plague of the hindsight.

    Where are your comments about it before end 2016? Before johannes Krause Russian presentation that made heads turn.... My direction. Lol

  2. #52
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes. And like I have been saying for years now, once L23 is found in shulaveri South Caucasus, EVERYBODY knew all along that it was the case. You included.
    It's the plague of the hindsight.

    Where are your comments about it before end 2016? Before johannes Krause Russian presentation that made heads turn.... My direction. Lol
    I mean none of the abstracts said anything about haplogroups - how are you so sure?

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,435
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,435, Level: 23
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The big odds about Shulaveri Shomu is that they had J2a1 or L1a1 as paternal parental marker. I also bet that an increase of Iran ancestry in Mediterranean or Southeast Europe gonna be linked with J2a1. My questions are focused on J2b history and the potential implications into the ancestry of Late Yamnaya -> Early Bell Beaker / Vucedol. Did J2b existed in the Steppe earlier and participate into the southern ancestry or did it independantly came from a southern road at the same time of the Yamnaya expansion and gived ancestry in the Balkans.

  4. #54
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Linguistically I do not think it does. Grarco-Armenian, if such an intermediary language ever existed maybe together with Phrygian, should predate 1500 BC by much, as in 1500 BC Greek already existed in recognizable form and Mycenaean Greek culture was already established in Greece.
    Yes that was my point. The hypothetical Proto-Graeco-Armenian stage dates to the 3rd millennium BC and would be placed somewhere around Armenia. Placing the proto mycanean speakers in a place where they would have ampl Iran_neo/chg but possibly also EHG from contact with caucauses. But you are right the paper says that the Iran_neo
    has reached Europe BY 1500BC.

    But ill be honest i never quite understood the supposed northern route of greeks entry into southern europe.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  5. #55
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think that's right, but of what was "steppe" composed?
    it is male-centered Yamna watered down with MN Euro, because most of the women they took were local
    the same goes for the Iran expansion, it was centered around Y-DNA J and by the time it reached the Aegean it was already heavy in EEF (it is hard to tell whether the EEF is Anatolian or local Aegean)

  6. #56
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    I would also bet that in the Balkans the confluence of Iran_Neo and EHG/WHG ancestries led to the formation of small ghost-Yamnaya components everywhere. I think it would be exceedingly difficult to tell those apart from direct steppe ancestry with f3, f4 & D-statistics.

  7. #57
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,435
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,435, Level: 23
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Btw, what is Iranian related? Is it not some kind of bias? How do you make a Greek sample shifted towards more Iran_Chl than to CHG? Are they trying to label CHG, Iran_Neolithic, Iran_Chl and Anatolian + Iran all Iran related? Peloponnese Neolithic was shifted towards CHG more than WHG too, is it also " Iran related "? Is this the new Eden? What can really distinguish Iran_Neo and Iran_Chl from CHG? on what ancestry shifted towards, make it more likely to be Hotu Cave related than Kotias related?

  8. #58
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    [SIZE=3][FONT=arial]"The three main phases of the period take their name from the most important centres at the time in question: Castelluccio (Early Bronze Age), Thapsos (Middle Bronze Age) and Pantalica (Late Bronze Age). There was a marked increase in cultural and commercial trade between regions near and far, particularly with Cornwall, across the Atlantic coasts of France, Spain, Sardinia, the Tyrrhenian coast to the Strait of Messina, and from here to the Aegean-Anatolian area."
    I think this is a bold statement.
    Is there proof Sicily or the eastern Mediterranean was using ores from Cornwall?
    Was there regular trade along the Atlantic and Meditterranean coasts all the way between Cornwall and Sicily? And if so, how many middle men were involved?

    It looks like Cornwall was the most important European source for tin ores and it must have been traded all around Europe.
    But probably there were a few local sources which got depleted early and there was tin from Central Asia reaching the Eastern Mediterranean.
    And later, Iberian tin ores were mined.

  9. #59
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Btw, what is Iranian related? Is it not some kind of bias? How do you make a Greek sample shifted towards more Iran_Chl than to CHG? Are they trying to label CHG, Iran_Neolithic, Iran_Chl and Anatolian + Iran all Iran related? Peloponnese Neolithic was shifted towards CHG more than WHG too, is it also " Iran related "? Is this the new Eden? What can really distinguish Iran_Neo and Iran_Chl from CHG? on what ancestry shifted towards, make it more likely to be Hotu Cave related than Kotias related?
    Generally what seems to define Neolithic Iranians is both the comparatively strong Basal Eurasian shift and a significant East Eurasian shift. That's why it's always so far away from other Eurasians in PCA plots. It's a very strange population, and causes all kinds of weirdness in models like Andaman Islanders modelled as 30% Neolithic Iranian in the Central Asian paper.

    Neolithic Iranians become Kotias-like with additional WHG/EHG.

  10. #60
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,435
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,435, Level: 23
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Generally what seems to define Neolithic Iranians is both the comparatively strong Basal Eurasian shift and a significant East Eurasian shift. That's why it's always so far away from other Eurasians in PCA plots. It's a very strange population, and causes all kinds of weirdness in models like Andaman Islanders modelled as 30% Neolithic Iranian in the Central Asian paper.

    Neolithic Iranians become Kotias-like with additional WHG/EHG.
    I understand that for the Source Samples, but how do you make a Mycenaean Greek sample being " Iranian related "? Is it more Basal Eurasian shifted or less WHG/EHG? It have to be CHG no? So there is a Kotias-like CHG wich have WHG/EHG and an Iranian-like CHG wich have more Basal Eurasian? Also, how is Basal Eurasian Iranian related itself? It's way older than Hotu. If we put away Iran, what is the main ancestry of that Mycenaean sample?

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,326
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,326, Level: 16
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 124
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes that was my point. The hypothetical Proto-Graeco-Armenian stage dates to the 3rd millennium BC and would be placed somewhere around Armenia. Placing the proto mycanean speakers in a place where they would have ampl Iran_neo/chg but possibly also EHG from contact with caucauses. But you are right the paper says that the Iran_neo
    has reached Europe BY 1500BC.

    But ill be honest i never quite understood the supposed northern route of greeks entry into southern europe.
    I have been saying this for years even without genetic evidence that Greek arrived from near Armenian teritory through Anatolia,even thought all were denying this.
    I am on same opinion even for Albanian now,the southern route Iran_Neo took to Italy maybe the sister language like Messapic.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 02-12-18 at 15:10.

  12. #62
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    I honestly did not expect Nuragic Sardinians to have any Iran Neolithic like ancestry. I knew of the exchange between Sardinia and the Eastern Mediterranean, and that Sardinia and Cyprus shared similar metallurgic tools, but that was during the late bronze age, not the middle bronze age, strange.

  13. #63
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class5000 Experience Points
    Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    357
    Points
    9,350
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,350, Level: 28
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 600
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Country: Italy



    Iran Neo could have reached Sicily and Sardinia and even other parts of Italy and the West Med in the Chalcolithic, in the middle bronze age there arent archaeological evidences for that indeed

    Utilizzando Tapatalk

  14. #64
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I would also bet that in the Balkans the confluence of Iran_Neo and EHG/WHG ancestries led to the formation of small ghost-Yamnaya components everywhere. I think it would be exceedingly difficult to tell those apart from direct steppe ancestry with f3, f4 & D-statistics.
    yup...! more ghosts
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  15. #65
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,913
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,913, Level: 12
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    yup...! more ghosts
    Yes!!!! We have a 7000bc ehg in Romania. So I have been asking all over what happens when South Caucasus meets that EHG? would it not create a fake yamnaya? Even wrote a post about it... Asked around but got nowhere. Nobody seemed to be able or willing to answer.

  16. #66
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Until we have the paper, instead of using amateur produced models of perhaps questionable accuracy I think we'd be better served to wait for the genetic analysis of the actual ancient dna, and in the meantime to review the Sicilian Bronze Age.

    See:
    https://www.ancient.eu/article/1190/bronze-age-sicily/

    This is just a starting point. There are more recent papers, and, of course, the upcoming paper will hopefully address all of this.

    "The three main phases of the period take their name from the most important centres at the time in question: Castelluccio (Early Bronze Age), Thapsos (Middle Bronze Age) and Pantalica (Late Bronze Age). There was a marked increase in cultural and commercial trade between regions near and far, particularly with Cornwall, across the Atlantic coasts of France, Spain, Sardinia, the Tyrrhenian coast to the Strait of Messina, and from here to the Aegean-Anatolian area."

    "In Sicily the oldest phases of prehistory were overcome at the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, when it received a new cultural wave, probably from the Middle East, today labelled with the name of the Castelluccio culture, from the homonymous prehistoric site near the city of Noto. This cultural facies (segmentation), rather unusual compared to those of the Copper Age, is verified in the south-east and south of the island, up to the provinces of Agrigento and Caltanissetta (in the west and in the middle of the island), and constitutes the “starting line” of the Sicilian bronze age. It is certainly dated to 2169±120 BCE (calibrated value) thanks to radiometric dating performed on 18 coal samples which proved to be the oldest of this culture and which were found at the archaeological site of "Muculufa", a few kilometres north-east of Licata town."

    "At this early stage of the Bronze Age, Sicily was divided into four macro-regions, each one of them with their own culture: northern Sicily with the Rodì-Tindari-Vallelunga culture, the western one, with the Naro/Partanna culture, the south-east with the Castelluccio culture and the Capo Graziano culture of the Aeolian Islands. Of these, that of Castelluccio seems to be the most homogeneous culture in this period, perhaps because it spread over a larger area and, consequently, it is much better known today.
    The prehistoric settlement of Castelluccio was built on a rather isolated but defensible rocky spur. The archaeologist Paolo Orsi, who identified it between the late-19th and early-20th century CE, found large quantities of ceramic fragments among the refuse and explored the artificial cave tombs. These tombs are oven-shaped and dug into the rocks. There are small oval-shaped rooms with a diameter of between 1.5-2.0 metres, sometimes preceded by an ante-cella and still containing grave goods. The Castelluccian villages, sometimes fortified, showed a rather interesting agricultural and pastoral reality. Their ceramics have been classified as "matt-painted ware" and have close ties with an Anatolian culture of the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, so-called "Cappadocia"."

    "In some of these graves carved globule bones have been found that are reminiscent of examples elsewhere (southeastern Italy, Malta, southern Greece and Troy II and III). "

    Interesting that...Were the Mycenaeans and Trojans cousins of a sort? Were they all cousins?

    Anyway, it seems to me that it will be well nigh impossible to detail all the movements back and forth between all these regions. On the face of it there was migration from the Aegean/Anatolian to both Italy and Greece (as we can tell not only from the Mycenaean genomes but from the modern levels of "Caucasian" in Greeks). There was also migration from the area of Greece to Italy. Later on, there seems to be migration from Italy to Greece.

    "

    MIDDLE BRONZE AGE

    From the end of 1500 to c. 1200 BCE in Sicily, important coastal settlements developed and the island began to acquire strategic-commercial importance thanks to the intense exchanges with Mycenaean Greece. The find of a large number of Aegean vases in the Sicilian tombs of this period proves a phenomenon that caused the birth of real emporia in which the transmarine trades were practised, as had happened in the Aeolian islands. This was just the age that the Milazzese culture flourished in the Aeolian Islands. In Sicily, for its part, a culture closely related to the Aeolian arose, called Thapsos."

    "

    MIDDLE BRONZE AGE

    From the end of 1500 to c. 1200 BCE in Sicily, important coastal settlements developed and the island began to acquire strategic-commercial importance thanks to the intense exchanges with Mycenaean Greece. The find of a large number of Aegean vases in the Sicilian tombs of this period proves a phenomenon that caused the birth of real emporia in which the transmarine trades were practised, as had happened in the Aeolian islands. This was just the age that the Milazzese culture flourished in the Aeolian Islands. In Sicily, for its part, a culture closely related to the Aeolian arose, called Thapsos."

    "

    LATE BRONZE AGE

    In the 13th century BCE everything suddenly changed. This period would seem to have been ruled by fear: the ancient coastal settlements were moved to higher sites, difficult to access but easily defendable, such as Pantalica, Montagna di Caltagirone, Dessueri, Sabucina and, later, Cassibile (all areas between south-eastern and central Sicily). While in the Aeolian Islands the Ausoni flourished, a civilization which came from the Italian peninsula, in Sicily a civilization strongly influenced by the Mycenaean one still persisted."

    As I said, there is a movement from Italy to Greece at that time. If some of the Sea Peoples were also from the Italian peninsula or even Sicily that would be another movement.

    We'll see if the following is still correct:

    "The historical sources (Hellanicus of Mytilene, Fylistus of Syracuse) assert this was the Sicels' time for Sicily, who also came from the Italian peninsula between the 13th and 12th century BCE. However, the archaeological layers following the Thapsos age do not confirm the presence of an Italic civilization. On the contrary, dating to this period is a monumental building made up of several rectangular rooms, the so-called Anaktoron or prince' palace. Built with megalithic techniques using gigantic stone blocks, it is a smaller imitation of the Mycenaean palaces. It also lacks the cremation of the deceased, which, in contrast, was widespread in the Italian peninsula of that era. The ritual will remain unknown in Sicily for a few more centuries yet. The Sicels, therefore, landed a few centuries later in eastern Sicily and drove away the Sicanians to the western part of the island, the dominant population who had lived on most of the island since time immemorial."

    You can read about the rest of the Bronze Age in the article, which was then followed by the Iron Age and more settlement from Greece.

    I'll be very interested to see if the steppe arrived only with some Bell Beaker or in other movements.


    good site Angela.

    The Castelluccian villages, sometimes fortified, showed a rather interesting agricultural and pastoral reality. Their ceramics have been classified as "matt-painted ware" and have close ties with an Anatolian culture of the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, so-called "Cappadocia". The wares show a variety of pottery shapes and geometric designs, the latter consisting of brown or black bands crossed on a yellow or red background.
    these colours remind me the Kura-Araxes ones? By the way the date of apparition of the Castelluccio Culture and El Argar are almost the same, quite interesting... if such cultural ties involved migratory movements it would explain the Iran_Neo found for such epoch. About the presence of the "steppe" autosomes it could be linked with the BB and the dolmens of the island, so that such BB carrying steppe would come like those of Balears from South France.

    BUT, if they have not found steppe in BA Sardinia but have found there Iran_Neo... it's a big problem as such island must have received the same kind of BB migration that Balears and Sicily; I'm quite scared that it is by the almost lack of WHG admixture in the local EEF (such island had no important Mesolithic population and Cardial migrants didn't had the opportunity to mix with local foragers). Maybe there was a BB strand high in CHG that after mixing with local EEF provided a new ghost steppe signal (taking part of the WHG share in EEF as EHG-like).

  17. #67
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class5000 Experience Points
    Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    357
    Points
    9,350
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,350, Level: 28
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 600
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Country: Italy



    Maybe the Sardinian samples are from the interior where there was little or zero BB settlements (?) no mines and no plains there only mountains

    Utilizzando Tapatalk

  18. #68
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Maybe the Sardinian samples are from the interior where there was little or zero BB settlements (?) no mines and no plains there only mountains

    Utilizzando Tapatalk
    You're right about the fact that the bell beaker material culture seems not to have reached the central-eastern part of the island, but not because it lacked metal deposits. In the interior there are a lot of silver deposits, the name Gennargentu, which designates the vast mountain area in the central-eastern of the island, means "gate of silver". There was an important metallurgical workshop and sanctuary in that region during the late bronze age: S'Arcu E Is Forros, along with some other ones around it such as Sa Sedda E Sos Carros and Sa Carcaredda.

  19. #69
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Your hypothesis looks plausible, it has verosimilitude at least (which is already much better than some things I read here and elsewhere among amateur fans of population genetics, lol), but let me just point out two things: 1) if those pre-L51 people were really mostly Anatolian Chalcolithic then, well, they definitely should have brought some good chunks of Iranian and Levantine Neolithic ancestry, because Chalcolithic Anatolia was already much more mixed IIRC; 2) Sorry you misunderstood what I said, I did not mean to imply the genetic signature of the Steppe was different from the Vinca steppe-like ancestry, what I was trying to say was that the L23 West Asians would certainly be totally different from the mainly EEF plus small amounts of Steppe EBA-like that the Vinca people had (anyway I think the Vinca would be too late to be a proxy for your hypothetical M269 Balkanic population, since you assume that by the Chalcolithic the L23 would already be starting its expansion to Europe).
    Wow, this is a bit weird of a thing to say, but verisimilitude is actually such a useful word to know, glad I know it now lol

    I don't think they were mostly Anatolian Chalcolithic, I think they would have been a hybrid of something Iron Gates-like and something Anatolian Chalcolithic-like, before further blending with the EEFs they would have come across further West across the Mediterranean (none of these blends are necessarily 50/50 by the way). If I'm not mistaken, the right proportions of that blend would produce something Beaker-like - but the thing I don't like about autosomal genetics being so over-utilised is that so many blends can create the same rough thing, because after the migrations of people intensified from the Late Neolithic onwards everyone became so mixed up (at least relative to these "purer" populations like WHG etc.) - as one example, it seems like most in academia see Corded Ware as descended from Yamnaya, but there's so many lines of evidence to show that that isn't the case. Just because they are both approximately EHG-CHG hybrids, doesn't necessarily mean one is an extension of the other, as these ancestral profiles could have been (and I think definitely were) achieved in parallel. That's the main reason I really like looking at Y DNA for tracing male-dominant migrations, because the precision leaves no room for ambiguity, but anyway.

    And I don't see early Vinca as too late: it's from the 6th millennium BC and has the earliest known example of copper smelting. With a migration of some of these metallurgical folk from early/middle Vinca to West Asia (perhaps in the search for new finds of metal like has been speculated with the metallurgical Beaker folk, who knows - this also works with the idea that they would be nomadic pastoralists, whose presence was known at least from Ubaid), Vinca wouldn't just collapse or become significantly less advanced or anything like that - you wouldn't expect to see much of a change at all, as the Vinca people proper (the mainly EEF farmer population) were advanced in their own right (as I said, I think the proto-writing, despite swastikas in the Danube script, surely has to be attributed to them, as to put it bluntly R1b-M269+ folk and literacy didn't get on very well until even well after the Iron Age in some cases).

    This puts a migration of M269-carriers out of the Balkans to West Asia sometime during the 6th millennium BC if I had to guess, which leaves 1-2 thousand years of development until the L23 mutation comes along, which could be why the variance of M269 is by far highest in Turkey and Northern Syria (despite it not being the homeland of M269, it seems the much much earlier M269 in Eastern Europe was really unsuccessful).
    Last edited by ToBeOrNotToBe; 02-12-18 at 16:17.

  20. #70
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,435
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,435, Level: 23
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Wow, this is a bit weird of a thing to say, but verisimilitude is actually such a useful word to know, glad I know it now lol

    I don't think they were mostly Anatolian Chalcolithic, I think they would have been a hybrid of something Iron Gates-like and something Anatolian Chalcolithic-like, before further blending with the EEFs they would have come across further West across the Mediterranean (none of these blends are necessarily 50/50 by the way). If I'm not mistaken, the right proportions of that blend would produce something Beaker-like - but the thing I don't like about autosomal genetics being so over-utilised is that so many blends can create the same rough thing, because after the migrations of people intensified from the Late Neolithic onwards everyone became so mixed up (at least relative to these "purer" populations like WHG etc.) - as one example, it seems like most in academia see Corded Ware as descended from Yamnaya, but there's so many lines of evidence to show that that isn't the case. Just because they are both approximately EHG-CHG hybrids, doesn't necessarily mean one is an extension of the other, as these ancestral profiles could have been (and I think definitely were) achieved in parallel. That's the main reason I really like looking at Y DNA for tracing male-dominant migrations, because the precision leaves no room for ambiguity, but anyway.

    And I don't see early Vinca as too late: it's from the 6th millennium BC and has the earliest known example of copper smelting. With a migration of some of these metallurgical folk from early/middle Vinca to West Asia (perhaps in the search for new finds of metal like has been speculated with the metallurgical Beaker folk, who knows - this also works with the idea that they would be nomadic pastoralists, whose presence was known at least from Ubaid), Vinca wouldn't just collapse or become significantly less advanced or anything like that - you wouldn't expect to see much of a change at all, as the Vinca people proper (the mainly EEF farmer population) were advanced in their own right (as I said, I think the proto-writing, despite swastikas in the Danube script, surely has to be attributed to them, as to put it bluntly R1b-M269+ folk and literacy didn't get on very well until even well after the Iron Age in some cases).

    This puts a migration out of the Balkans to West Asia of these metallurgical folk somewhere around perhaps the year 5,000 BC if I had to guess, which leaves 1,000 years until the L23 mutation comes along.
    The thing is, we dont really know if Yamnaya, Bell Beaker, Unetice, Vucedol were Metallurgists at all. Much of the metal artifacts from those cultures were weapons and jewelry wich is clearly about social status and they were found in Hoards. Hoards is much more a characteristic of Thiefs, War treasurs and maybe Trading. There is more chance than IE people were something like Pastoralists past-time Warriors and/or past-time Mercenaries who accumulate a lot of wealth by trades and payments from local populations with strong metallurgical culture.

  21. #71
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The thing is, we dont really know if Yamnaya, Bell Beaker, Unetice, Vucedol were Metallurgists at all. Much of the metal artifacts from those cultures were weapons and jewelry wich is clearly about social status and they were found in Hoards. Hoards is much more a characteristic of Thiefs, War treasurs and maybe Trading. There is more chance than IE people were something like Pastoralists past-time Warriors and/or past-time Mercenaries who accumulate a lot of wealth by trades and payments from local populations with strong metallurgical culture.
    Well looking at Yamnaya and Bell Beaker, we know that they would have been skilled metallurgists. One of the main reasons Yamnaya completely dominated the densely-populated Balkans is because of their bronze weapons - the advantage of having bronze weaponry really cannot be overstated, it is almost like comparing a semi-automatic rifle to a musket. And Bell Beaker seems to have picked up Bronze smelting technology from contacts with Hungarian Yamnaya, but they too were clearly metallurgists even before this. I don't think anyone really doubts that perhaps the main (but if not, one of the main) factor for the successful spread of Yamnaya and the Bell Beaker culture was due to metallurgy.

  22. #72
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Well looking at Yamnaya and Bell Beaker, we know that they would have been skilled metallurgists. One of the main reasons Yamnaya completely dominated the densely-populated Balkans is because of their bronze weapons - the advantage of having bronze weaponry really cannot be overstated, it is almost like comparing a semi-automatic rifle to a musket. And Bell Beaker seems to have picked up Bronze smelting technology from contacts with Hungarian Yamnaya, but they too were clearly metallurgists even before this. I don't think anyone really doubts that perhaps the main (but if not, one of the main) factor for the successful spread of Yamnaya and the Bell Beaker culture was due to metallurgy.
    What? Yamnaya had bronze weapons? What are you talking about?

  23. #73
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class5000 Experience Points
    Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    357
    Points
    9,350
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,350, Level: 28
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 600
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Country: Italy



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    They had copper not bronze

    Utilizzando Tapatalk

  24. #74
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    What? Yamnaya had bronze weapons? What are you talking about?
    They did, I swear. Let me double check though.

  25. #75
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,596
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,596, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Maybe the Sardinian samples are from the interior where there was little or zero BB settlements (?) no mines and no plains there only mountains

    Utilizzando Tapatalk
    We already know from all the recent papers on Sardinia that the samples so close to EEF and even MN Europe from Sardinia were taken by Cavalli Sforza from the remote and isolated Barbagia. At the same time we know from those same papers that the remainder of the Sardinian population is not hugely different from those samples. The influence from this early movement of Iran Neo like ancestry into Sardinia, as well as whatever genetic material may have been contributed by Bell Beakers or later on by some Phoenicians and by migration from the mainland was not enough to move them all that far from the relict population.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •