Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 317

Thread: New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

  1. #101
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Didn't know that Yamnaya bronze used arsenic and not tin to alloy with the copper, thanks.
    Arsenical Bronze was the norm everywhere before Proper Bronze. Unetice used to trade as far as Wssex Culture, probably for the Cornwall Tin.

  2. #102
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I guess I agree most Yamnaya smelting would take place in those regions, yeah. The more I think about it, when considering the motives for expansion (given the Steppe is basically a paradise for pastoralists), the quest for metals does make sense. I always linked migrations in the search of metals to the Bell Beaker folk, but I just assumed Yamnaya was inherently warlike and just picked up the bronze and copper weaponry (and horses of course) to conquer for the sake of some kind of adventurous spirit - that is clearly naïve though, but it does match nicely with things like the Afanasievo culture, which was clearly just expansion for the sake of expansion.

    I disagree that Yamnaya was somehow just buying weapons from the Caucasus and were oblivious to the technology behind creating bronze alloys though, and I've always said Yamnaya's metallurgical influences came from the South. But yeah, point taken about how by far the main centres of metallurgy near Yamnaya are in the Caucasus and in the Balkans.
    I guess at the beginning, Yamnaya even before Repin, Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog were inherently warlike in their own society like europe feodalism. When some internal pressure would happen, some people would have been banned from the society and must have found a place elswhere, over the time, they became to happened in other " civilisations " like Old Europe and Caucasus, over time they take the power.

  3. #103
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    643

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Doesn't need to be related to Armenian to come from that area,there was many other Anatolian languages,Iranic languages for example.
    Albanian at least to me seem connected to Germanic and Balto-Slavic the most,but this could be later influence maybe?
    Also i was discussing other possibilities not only the Carpathian which i said need to be proven,even if it was "Dacian" or "Illyrian" related really could have come from there.

    E-V13 was not probably in the Indo-European migration.
    J2b2-L283 is probably Indo-European but we are yet to see from where it came from.
    For the R1b-Z103 we don't know if Albanians descent exactly from this sample,there is many haplotypes under R1b-Z103.
    I am not excluding more "ancient" entry,but R1b-Z103 being eastern related i think Albanian took same route as the Greek for which i think came from there.

    After all for right now i think that two "groups" carried IE,steppe groups and the Iran_Neo,ultimate PIE homeland-Armenia,Iran,Kurdistan maybe parts of eastern Anatolia,that area somewhere.
    Yes it is mostly Armenian, the first discovered branch of Armenian including their original language was a Hittite language and most scholars and historians support the fact that they are close genetic descendants when you think of typical PIEs you think of Armenian / Hittites. You can argue that Greeks Cypriots indigenous people of the Levant would have close similarities.

    Hittites in their description, were also physically indistinguishable from Pontian Greeks that is the Greeks who inhabit Pontus. This proves that both the ( original Armenians ) and Pontian Greeks have a racial and a historical connection and both those ethnicities are indigenous.

  4. #104
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    643

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Iran Neo is just a fancy way of saying Pontian Caspian Steppes

  5. #105
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I guess at the beginning, Yamnaya even before Repin, Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog were inherently warlike in their own society like europe feodalism. When some internal pressure would happen, some people would have been banned from the society and must have found a place elswhere, over the time, they became to happened in other " civilisations " like Old Europe and Caucasus, over time they take the power.
    No of course Yamnaya was warlike, but I just mean it was naïve to think that they would invade various places just for the sake of expanding into others' territory (when why would you need more than the Steppe, it's huge). The expansion for metals makes sense.

    Also just something somewhat irrelevant, and I think people have speculated on this before (but in a different way) - I think the Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic (so well before Yamnaya) statue menhirs in Western Europe are yet another sign of these R1b-L51 people. Now, there are very similar erections (sorry) in the Steppe at the time of Yamnaya, which might lead to believing that the erectors of these statues migrated across Europe from there, but they surely would have been Y DNA Z2103 given both ends of the Yamnaya spectrum are Z2103 (from the Danube to the Ural rivers), which leaves no room for L51. Sporadically, these stelae have been found in the Near East, which could have been where the common ancestor of L51 and Z2103 lived - in some places, it could be possible to link it to incursions from the Steppe (such as western Anatolia), however in others that is basically impossible, such as the finds in Northern Saudi Arabia dating to the early 4th millennium BC, which shows that, unless this was a miraculous independent invention, its origin was probably in West Asia. Virtually all of these stelae depict the men as warriors with authority, and the women are differentiated through showing off their breasts.

    It's also worth mentioning that most of the Steppe stelae are around the Ukraine, of the Kemi Oba culture, which according to Russian Wikipedia "may have something to do with the Caucasus", which further cements this West Asian origin theory (on top of this clearly non-Steppe related Northern Saudi stelae of the same style).

    https://translate.google.com/transla...FStatue-menhir

  6. #106
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    No of course Yamnaya was warlike, but I just mean it was naïve to think that they would invade various places just for the sake of expanding into others' territory (when why would you need more than the Steppe, it's huge). The expansion for metals makes sense.

    Also just something somewhat irrelevant, and I think people have speculated on this before (but in a different way) - I think the Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic (so well before Yamnaya) statue menhirs in Western Europe are yet another sign of these R1b-L51 people. Now, there are very similar erections (sorry) in the Steppe at the time of Yamnaya, which might lead to believing that the erectors of these statues migrated across Europe from there, but they surely would have been Y DNA Z2103 given both ends of the Yamnaya spectrum are Z2103 (from the Danube to the Ural rivers), which leaves no room for L51. Sporadically, these stelae have been found in the Near East, which could have been where the common ancestor of L51 and Z2103 lived - in some places, it could be possible to link it to incursions from the Steppe (such as western Anatolia), however in others that is basically impossible, such as the finds in Northern Saudi Arabia dating to the early 4th millennium BC, which shows that, unless this was a miraculous independent invention, its origin was probably in West Asia. Virtually all of these stelae depict the men as warriors with authority, and the women are differentiated through showing off their breasts.

    https://translate.google.com/transla...FStatue-menhir
    I dont believe the saudi arabian stelae are really from 4000BC, but who knows. The south caucasus one are from 2000BC while some stelae in the pontic steppe are from Sredny Stog. It's unlikely that there was a jump from Saudi Arabia to the Pontic Steppe with the one in between being younger than the two extremities. L51 for my point of view is a little problem in the equation, Yamnaya is just one side of the whole story, it's not the Eden Garden. As for being from the steppe, instead some tested samples labeled Z2103 were in fact L51 because low snps or what not, i think we want never found them there. The answer for L51 is linked either with the Danube ( most likely ) or either with an obscure semi-maritime road.

  7. #107
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    God there are just so many lines of evidence I keep finding for a West Asian origin of L23, followed by a Chalcolithic migration of pre-L51 to Western Europe and (later during the Bronze Age) Z2103 to the Steppe - I hope this isn't some ridiculous confirmation bias at play, at least it doesn't seem like it.

  8. #108
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I dont believe the saudi arabian stelae are really from 4000BC, but who knows. The south caucasus one are from 2000BC while some stelae in the pontic steppe are from Sredny Stog. It's unlikely that there was a jump from Saudi Arabia to the Pontic Steppe with the one in between being younger than the two extremities. L51 for my point of view is a little problem in the equation, Yamnaya is just one side of the whole story, it's not the Eden Garden. As for being from the steppe, instead some tested samples labeled Z2103 were in fact L51 because low snps or what not, i think we want never found them there. The answer for L51 is linked either with the Danube ( most likely ) or either with an obscure semi-maritime road.
    It's from between 4000 and 3000 BC without any doubt (so not from the Steppe, yet the similarities suggest a common origin), and I updated that post by the way, with the Caucasus-to-Steppe link via Kemi Oba. It reminds of the Ozera outlier actually...

  9. #109
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I dont believe the saudi arabian stelae are really from 4000BC, but who knows. The south caucasus one are from 2000BC while some stelae in the pontic steppe are from Sredny Stog. It's unlikely that there was a jump from Saudi Arabia to the Pontic Steppe with the one in between being younger than the two extremities. L51 for my point of view is a little problem in the equation, Yamnaya is just one side of the whole story, it's not the Eden Garden. As for being from the steppe, instead some tested samples labeled Z2103 were in fact L51 because low snps or what not, i think we want never found them there. The answer for L51 is linked either with the Danube ( most likely ) or either with an obscure semi-maritime road.
    I don't know what that's referring to, but if it was actually found to be probably pre-L51 everyone would have gone nuts by now. When do these samples date to? If Yamnaya, I very much doubt that it is legit. Danubian Yamnaya was clearly Z2103, the only hope for L51 from the Steppe is a pre-Yamnaya migration.

  10. #110
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,827
    Points
    249,674
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,674, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Any discussion of metallurgy in terms of Yamnaya or more generally the steppes is very time dependent.

    In the earliest period they imported copper objects, usually from the west.

    As time went on they made copper artifacts of their own, using copper from the west, but they were simplistic and inferior.

    As yet more time passed the steppe peoples did adopt bronze metallurgy. That seems to be after the time of the earliest Corded Ware movements, because they had only copper in the beginning.

    Let's not try to re-invent the wheel, people. This is all well-known.



    We discussed it here at great length back in 2014.

    Steppe people became good metallurgists, i.e. Srubnaya and Sintashta, for example.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-on-Metallurgy


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  11. #111
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Any discussion of metallurgy in terms of Yamnaya or more generally the steppes is very time dependent.

    In the earliest period they imported copper objects, usually from the west.

    As time went on they made copper artifacts of their own, using copper from the west, but they were simplistic and inferior.

    As yet more time passed the steppe peoples did adopt bronze metallurgy. That seems to be after the time of the earliest Corded Ware movements, because they had only copper in the beginning.

    Let's not try to re-invent the wheel, people. This is all well-known.



    We discussed it here at great length back in 2014.

    Steppe people became good metallurgists, i.e. Srubnaya and Sintashta, for example.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-on-Metallurgy
    Corded Ware may not (I think likely not) have been derived from Yamnaya, but instead displaced by Yamnaya - but Yamnaya did have bronze metallurgy at the earliest stages, but initially very limited. It does seem to be mostly of North Caucasian origin.

  12. #112
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,827
    Points
    249,674
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,674, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As to whether the Greek speakers entered "Greece" from Anatolia or the northern Balkans, the academics left it open. We'll see what more ancient dna shows.

    People seem to have forgotten the specifics of the Mycenaean paper. Almost 75% of their ancestry was Neolithic farmer like. Approximately 10% was steppe, and the rest was "Iran Neo" like.

    ""The successful models agree that Mycenaeans have most of their ancestry from the Neolithicsubstratum (~74-79%), with the remainder from both the Eastern European/Siberian set ofpopulations (~5-16%), and the Iran/Caucasus populations (~9-18%). These results do not, of coursedetermine whether the non-Anatolian Neolithic-related admixture in Mycenaeans was introduced by asingle population that was itself a mix of the Eastern European/Siberian and Iran/Caucasus sources, orby separate admixtures that reached the Aegean presumably from the north and east. They do,however, show that admixture from only a single of those sources is insufficient to properly model theancestry of Mycenaeans (as the failure of any 2-source model in Table S2.1 indicates)."

    "We were concerned that the admixture from these three sources could be driven by heterogeneitywithin the Mycenaean population itself. Mycenaeans do appear to form a tight cluster in PCA (Fig.1b) and to have similar admixture proportions in ADMIXTURE analysis."

    "More formally, we tested all (42) = 6 pairs of Mycenaean individuals in our dataset as a Left list,using the All as the Right list. All 6 pairs were consistent with forming a clade with respect to the Allset to the limits of our resolution (p-value for rank=0 ≥0.08)."

    So, we're talking about, say, 10% "steppe" admixture. "

    "It seems to me that perhaps more J2 came to Crete and mainland Greece before the Bronze Age proper for the CHG/Iran type ancestry to be so low. That, or like Bronze Age migrations in Europe, they were more male dominated, because the Minoans seem to be largely Neolithic Anatolians, which is what I always suspected and proposed.

    Of course, they always think of everything, so they thought of this too.:)

    ". However, all the Bronze Age populations also have ancestry related to the Caucasusor Iran, consistent with their shift in PCA (Fig. 1b). This shift began in Anatolia no later than theChalcolithic (3943-3708 calBCE)16 and was not evident in Greece by the time of the Final Neolithic(4,230–3,995 calBCE) individual from Kleitos14 that resembled (like all other Greek Neolithicindividuals) Anatolian farmers (Fig. 1b). The newly reported Neolithic individual from Diros Cave inthe Peloponnese (where most of the Mycenaean samples are from) did not have this ancestry as late as5479-5338 calBCE (Extended Data Table 1). (Future studies may show when the transformationoccurred in Greece, but by the time of the Minoan and Mycenaean samples, both populations tracedsome ancestry to this eastern source, as did the southwestern Anatolians from Harmanören Göndürle.

    "Bronze Age AnatoliaThe population from Bronze Age southwestern Anatolia does not form a clade with any single (N=1)population of the All set (p-value for rank=0 < 1e-25). It cannot be modelled as any 2-way mixture(Table S2.8), with the best ones involving a mixture of Anatolian Neolithic and either Iran Neolithicor Caucasus hunter-gatherers. This population can be modelled as a 3-way mixture (Table S2.9) of~62% Neolithic Anatolian, ~32% Caucasus hunter-gatherer (CHG), and ~6% Levantine Neolithicancestry. This extra Levantine Neolithic ancestry parallels the PCA (Fig. 1b) that shows that theBronze Age Anatolian sample is to the “east” (towards the Levant) relative to the Minoans andMycenaeans.""
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ght=Mycenaeans


    If there was no "steppe" in Anatolia, and that's what the current samples show, that seems to be a problem for the Anatolia entry hypothesis.

  13. #113
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I don't know what that's referring to, but if it was actually found to be probably pre-L51 everyone would have gone nuts by now. When do these samples date to? If Yamnaya, I very much doubt that it is legit. Danubian Yamnaya was clearly Z2103, the only hope for L51 from the Steppe is a pre-Yamnaya migration.
    I'm talking about the Danubian Road into Western Europe, not Danubian Yamnaya, wich is more Tisza Yamnaya.

  14. #114
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I'm talking about the Danubian Road into Western Europe, not Danubian Yamnaya, wich is more Tisza Yamnaya.
    Sure, but it definitely wouldn't have been that different. That either implies L23 split up just before the Tisza, or for whatever reason L51 decided to stay on the Danube and Z2103 would go down the Tisza - but the common origin of this migration, Yamnaya, was Z2103 anyway. So it's not possible, or rather super unlikely to the point where it's not a reasonable possibility.

    I am open to a Steppe origin of L51 despite not believing in it, but it would basically have to be pre-Yamnaya.

  15. #115
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Sure, but it definitely wouldn't have been that different. That either implies L23 split up just before the Tisza, or for whatever reason L51 decided to stay on the Danube and Z2103 would go down the Tisza - but the common origin of this migration, Yamnaya, was Z2103 anyway. So it's not possible, or rather super unlikely to the point where it's not a reasonable possibility.

    I am open to a Steppe origin of L51 despite not believing in it, but it would basically have to be pre-Yamnaya.
    I didn't imply this. When Yamnaya expand into the Danubian, they created multitude of spots. On the Tisza, Vucedol, Bubanj, Otomani, Moravian BB, Bohemian BB, Danubian BB, Alsacian BB. R1b-L51 probably expanded from one of those center, they probably had R1b-Z2103 too. Eastern Bell Beaker are on the L-51 cline wich obviously mean they expanded for somewhere close and followed the Danube and the Rhine into Western Europe.

  16. #116
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I didn't imply this. When Yamnaya expand into the Danubian, they created multitude of spots. On the Tisza, Vucedol, Bubanj, Otomani, Moravian BB, Bohemian BB, Danubian BB, Alsacian BB. R1b-L51 probably expanded from one of those center, they probably had R1b-Z2103 too. Eastern Bell Beaker are on the L-51 cline wich obviously mean they expanded for somewhere close and followed the Danube and the Rhine into Western Europe.
    So you mean originally Yamnaya expanding up the lower Danube nearer the Black Sea was a mixture of Z2103 and L51, and a founder effect led to L51's dominance in the branch that continued to Central Europe? Sorry if I'm not understanding, but if that's the case then we would expect to see some L51 in Yamnaya and elsewhere in the Yamnaya horizon, but we haven't. We would also still expect to see small but still noticeable levels of Z2103 in Western Europe, yet it is basically non-existent.

    The point is, L51 definitely predates Yamnaya, but it's nowhere to be seen until the Beaker expansions across Europe, which I will just point out was archaologically definitely West to East.

  17. #117
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    So you mean originally Yamnaya expanding up the lower Danube nearer the Black Sea was a mixture of Z2103 and L51, and a founder effect led to L51's dominance in the branch that continued to Central Europe? Sorry if I'm not understanding, but if that's the case then we would expect to see some L51 in Yamnaya and elsewhere in the Yamnaya horizon, but we haven't. We would also still expect to see small but still noticeable levels of Z2103 in Western Europe, yet it is basically non-existent.

    The point is, L51 definitely predates Yamnaya, but it's nowhere to be seen until the Beaker expansions across Europe, which I will just point out was archaologically definitely West to East.

    Why should we seen it in Yamnaya samples if it was not a main haplogroup? We have 100 samples on 1'000'000 km2. It's like in the 3000's researchers would have 100 samples of 2000's Stockholm, all local and their conclusion would be : yes there was no Africans in 2000's Stockholm. We dont know the exact ratio of each clade in the Pontic Steppe. L-51 is like M-269. We didn't found any M-269 in the Steppe yet, but they probably were there. They probably were V-88 too and L-51, but L-23 and Z-2103 were overdominant, until L-51 had a open door over Western Europe.

  18. #118
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Why should we seen it in Yamnaya samples if it was not a main haplogroup? We have 100 samples on 1'000'000 km2. It's like in the 3000's researchers would have 100 samples of 2000's Stockholm, all local and their conclusion would be : yes there was no Africans in 2000's Stockholm. We dont know the exact ratio of each clade in the Pontic Steppe. L-51 is like M-269. We didn't found any M-269 in the Steppe yet, but they probably were there. They probably were V-88 too and L-51, but L-23 and Z-2103 were overdominant, until L-51 had a open door over Western Europe.
    Well, let's just wait and see

  19. #119
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    12-03-18
    Posts
    109
    Points
    1,505
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,505, Level: 10
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    I think it's more likely that Greek speakers came from Balkans. On the other hand, it's very unlikely that they also came to Anatolia from Balkans because there is no steppe ancestry and no anthropological change until 2000 BC there with Indo European names in North Syria from 2500 BC.

  20. #120
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered
    Tutkun Arnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-03-18
    Posts
    271

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    I think it's more likely that Greek speakers came from Balkans. On the other hand, it's very unlikely that they also came to Anatolia from Balkans because there is no steppe ancestry and no anthropological change until 2000 BC there with Indo European names in North Syria from 2500 BC.


    Greek and Armenian were once the same language. If Greek speakers came from Balkans where did Armenians came from? Clearly Greek speakers and Armenian were Anatolian populations

  21. #121
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    I think it's more likely that Greek speakers came from Balkans. On the other hand, it's very unlikely that they also came to Anatolia from Balkans because there is no steppe ancestry and no anthropological change until 2000 BC there with Indo European names in North Syria from 2500 BC.
    My guess is that even if they came from Anatolia, they would have come via the steppe regions of Bulgaria to mainland Greece and the Peloponnese. Drews in his new book sees Greco-Armenian develop in the Trialeti culture, and that's the general route he outlines.

  22. #122
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,166
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,166, Level: 16
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 284
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    If there was no "steppe" in Anatolia, and that's what the current samples show, that seems to be a problem for the Anatolia entry hypothesis.
    And how we can know who brought the language if there was both steppe and Iran_Neo let's say in similar percentage?

  23. #123
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    643

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Greek and Armenian were once the same language. If Greek speakers came from Balkans where did Armenians came from? Clearly Greek speakers and Armenian were Anatolian populations
    They're from Anatolia the Pontian part which is West or West East

  24. #124
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    643

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    I think it's more likely that Greek speakers came from Balkans. On the other hand, it's very unlikely that they also came to Anatolia from Balkans because there is no steppe ancestry and no anthropological change until 2000 BC there with Indo European names in North Syria from 2500 BC.
    The Near Eastern genetics came from Anatolia into the Levant it wasn't indiginous it's indiginous to Anatolia that kind of farming migration came later.

    That's why it's sloppy to call the Near East the Levant, the Levant is just something the French coined when they colonised it it was always known as Greater Syria too and rightly so because after they came from Anatolia those farmers then moved onto North Syria and not much else of the Levant.

    The recording of the farmers in Jordan and West Bank of Palestine for example are minimal it was mostly done in North Syria because only then after Anatolia.

  25. #125
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,859
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,859, Level: 22
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Armenians came as Phrygians. Why not?

Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •