Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 317

Thread: New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

  1. #126
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    711

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Armenians came as Phrygians. Why not?
    That's only part of their ancestry and genetics

  2. #127
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,749
    Points
    28,988
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,988, Level: 52
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 762
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes!!!! We have a 7000bc ehg in Romania. So I have been asking all over what happens when South Caucasus meets that EHG? would it not create a fake yamnaya? Even wrote a post about it... Asked around but got nowhere. Nobody seemed to be able or willing to answer.
    That is exactly the reason why many models using many reasonably proximate and plausible populations as hypothetical sources of ancestry must be tested, not trying to use the ones that the author previously wants to find. The closest fits will be the model nearer to the actual truth, though probably in a kind of simplified way, but the essence will be there. I think a good analysis could make sure that a model with separate EHG and Iran-Neo do not get conflated with Yamnaya/Steppe. Can we just assume EHG in BA steppe was still exactly identical to EHG in mesolithic Karelia or Romania?

    There was certainly substructure within these broad labels like EHG and Iran-Neo, so using several proxy populations, especially contemporary genetic structures (honestly I do not think a 7000 BC EHG has a lot to say to us about demographic events in Europe in 3000 BC), instead of just a few samples, because that paucity may cause the algorithms to assign ancestry to the closest but still different source. I actually think that is what must be happening with their suspiciously too high Yamnaya-like admixture in modern Northeast Europeans like the Saami and even in ancient samples if the region, with the extra EHG that existed before totally disappearing. As Angela implied if I understood her correctly, I think that somehow the model ended up "splitting" EHG and attributing part of it to WHG, another part to Nganasan and another to Iran-Neo within Yamnaya.
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 03-12-18 at 06:22.

  3. #128
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think a good analysis could make sure that a model with separate EHG and Iran-Neo do not get conflated with Yamnaya/Steppe.
    I really doubt it. Even seemingly cohesive populations are too internally diverse to allow for that kind of accuracy.

  4. #129
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I really doubt it. Even seemingly cohesive populations are too internally diverse to allow for that kind of accuracy.
    I agree, I think you would need an insane amount of samples to get the specific fingerprint of the genetic signature of hybrid populations separate from the sum of their components, and it may actually be straight up impossible even in ideal circumstances if population growth was low from the point of hybridisation up until the sample date of this hybrid. I definitely agree with Olympus Mons about the idea that EHG present in Balkan HGs, added to some CHG picked up in West Asia, could emulate Steppe (and I'm taking credit for once for coming up with that idea! :P).

    Also, to Ygorcs, about the point I raised but didn't know the answer to - I've checked, and I'm right that it is the case that Beaker folk have a high WHG:EHG ratio, which indeed cannot easily be explained by Steppe + European Neolithic (given the WHG:ANF ratio, it can't be the case that the higher WHG than EHG was picked up from European Neolithic types, as then you'd have considerably more ANF ancestry). A source of EHG ancestry in the Balkans (from a population with a high WHG:EHG ratio), similar to Iron Gates, makes far more sense than the Steppe itself.

  5. #130
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-05-17
    Posts
    11
    Points
    2,080
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,080, Level: 12
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: United States



    I wonder whether the Greek myth about Prometheus being chained to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus as a punishment for bringing the secret of fire to humanity is an echo of the memory of the ancestors of the ancient Greeks learning bronze metallurgy from the Caucasus civilizations.

  6. #131
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel D View Post
    I wonder whether the Greek myth about Prometheus being chained to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus as a punishment for bringing the secret of fire to humanity is an echo of the memory of the Greek ancestors learning bronze metallurgy from the Caucasus civilizations.
    That is clearly pushing it very far - I'm not against looking to mythology to learn about history (the Bible for example is surprisingly useful), but come on that is very fanciful. Hephaestus, maybe, is better to look into, as he is specifically the god of metallurgy and making things like weapons (fire is more generic surely).

    It seems, through comparative mythology, that there is a common origin of this archetypal god in West Asia, as it is present in roughly the same form in Nordic mythology and in various West Asian mythologies (even in Egyptian mythology) - it's obviously more likely that the Norse god was influenced via West Asian influences in Yamnaya than Egypt via the Steppe.

    Interestingly enough, the Ossetian god of metallurgy is Kurdalægon - which comes from Kurd and Alæ (meaning blacksmith and Aryan respectively - so an Aryan blacksmith). So, maybe the Kurds (perhaps even before their modern Iranian identity) are named as such because of their reputation as metallurgists?

  7. #132
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    711

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel D View Post
    I wonder whether the Greek myth about Prometheus being chained to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus as a punishment for bringing the secret of fire to humanity is an echo of the memory of the Greek ancestors learning bronze metallurgy from the Caucasus civilizations.
    I suggest you read the link I provided

  8. #133
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-05-17
    Posts
    11
    Points
    2,080
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,080, Level: 12
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    That is clearly pushing it very far - I'm not against looking to mythology to learn about history (the Bible for example is surprisingly useful), but come on that is very fanciful. Hephaestus, maybe, is better to look into, as he is specifically the god of metallurgy and making things like weapons (fire is more generic surely).
    I agree to an extent, but it is an odd coincidence that Greek mythology held Prometheus to have been chained in the Caucasus mountains as opposed to other locations. Perhaps so much time had passed that the Greeks no longer remembered which important innovation their remote ancestors received from the Caucasus, but they nevertheless remembered it was something important, which eventually became fire in the stories. After all, classical Greece civilization was more than 1500 years after the hypothetical transmittal of the knowledge.

    I'm not saying there's necessarily a link, but it was something that I've thought about ever since I first heard about the possibility of the interrelationship between PIE and Maikop. Do any other Indo-European groups place a significant mythological knowledge giver in the Caucasus?

  9. #134
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel D View Post
    I agree to an extent, but it is an odd coincidence that Greek mythology held Prometheus to have been chained in the Caucasus mountains as opposed to other locations. Perhaps so much time had passed that the Greeks no longer remembered which important innovation their remote ancestors received from the Caucasus, but they nevertheless remembered it was something important, which eventually became fire in the stories. After all, classical Greece civilization was more than 1500 years after the hypothetical transmittal of the knowledge.

    I'm not saying there's necessarily a link, but it was something that I've thought about ever since I first heard about the possibility of the interrelationship between PIE and Maikop. Do any other Indo-European groups place a significant knowledge giver in the Caucuses?
    I mean, I agree with what you're pointing to in a roundabout way, but it's too fanciful. If he specifically brought metallurgy to the Greeks, then I'd count it as one line of evidence, but fire is more primal and basic.

  10. #135
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-05-17
    Posts
    11
    Points
    2,080
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,080, Level: 12
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I mean, I agree with what you're pointing to in a roundabout way, but it's too fanciful. If he specifically brought metallurgy to the Greeks, then I'd count it as one line of evidence, but fire is more primal and basic.
    I agree that the argument for a connection would be stronger if it were specifically about Hephaestus and metallurgy rather than Prometheus and fire. According to the Wikipedia page to which you linked, however, some versions of the Prometheus myth have him stealing fire from Hephaestus' forge, so there is some (attenuated) connection to Hephaestus' forge in the Prometheus myth.

  11. #136
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel D View Post
    I agree that the argument for a connection would be stronger if it were specifically about Hephaestus and metallurgy rather than Prometheus and fire. According to the Wikipedia page to which you linked, however, some versions of the Prometheus myth have him stealing fire from Hephaestus' forge, so there is some (attenuated) connection to Hephaestus' forge in the Prometheus myth.
    I suppose, but it's still too weak to be considered a good line of evidence. The story of the Argonauts might be interesting as well (given they sailed to the Caucasus for the golden fleece), but again its questionable at best to be used as evidence of anything.

  12. #137
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    526
    Points
    5,076
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,076, Level: 21
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 474
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    What they call 'Iran-related' is probably CHG and they are talking about predominately EEF groups with CHG admixture similar to the 'Minoans'
    and what they call 'Steppe-related' is just 'Steppe-like' and partially so.

    They could have used labels like 'Aegean-related' and 'Central-Europe-related'. They would have been less wrong.

  13. #138
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,749
    Points
    28,988
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,988, Level: 52
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 762
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes that was my point. The hypothetical Proto-Graeco-Armenian stage dates to the 3rd millennium BC and would be placed somewhere around Armenia. Placing the proto mycanean speakers in a place where they would have ampl Iran_neo/chg but possibly also EHG from contact with caucauses. But you are right the paper says that the Iran_neo
    has reached Europe BY 1500BC.
    But ill be honest i never quite understood the supposed northern route of greeks entry into southern europe.
    Didn't the Caucasus paper fail to find any EHG in Maykop, which is North Caucasus? If Maykop lacked it then I doubt the region of Armenia in South Caucasus would have non-negligible EHG. Unless, I think, if the steppe people had really roamed through and settled in the Caucasus after the Bronze Age, possibly even the Proto-Graeco-Armenians themselves. I know CHG had a small amount of EHG-related ancestry, but I assume the authors would be able to notice that a CHG source fits their genetic makeup better than a pure EHG one.

  14. #139
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,749
    Points
    28,988
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,988, Level: 52
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 762
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Also, to Ygorcs, about the point I raised but didn't know the answer to - I've checked, and I'm right that it is the case that Beaker folk have a high WHG:EHG ratio, which indeed cannot easily be explained by Steppe + European Neolithic (given the WHG:ANF ratio, it can't be the case that the higher WHG than EHG was picked up from European Neolithic types, as then you'd have considerably more ANF ancestry). A source of EHG ancestry in the Balkans (from a population with a high WHG:EHG ratio), similar to Iron Gates, makes far more sense than the Steppe itself.
    I did not know that thing about the WHG to EHG ratio in BB samples. Really a very intriguing finding, and one which at the very least suggests the true genetic formation of that population was more complex, multilayered. Just so you do not forget it I will add: your hypothesis to explain how that outcome would have happened has verosimilitude. Lol

  15. #140
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Didn't the Caucasus paper fail to find any EHG in Maykop, which is North Caucasus? If Maykop lacked it then I doubt the region of Armenia in South Caucasus would have non-negligible EHG. Unless, I think, if the steppe people had really roamed through and settled in the Caucasus after the Bronze Age, possibly even the Proto-Graeco-Armenians themselves. I know CHG had a small amount of EHG-related ancestry, but I assume the authors would be able to notice that a CHG source fits their genetic makeup better than a pure EHG one.
    Armenian Chalcolithic (Areni-1), predating those Maykop samples, had a very decent amount of EHG (and as mentioned, one of them was a blue-eyed, pale redhead). The upcoming Caucasus paper basically says that different pockets of the Caucasus had very different ancestry despite being part of the same cultural horizon (much like the Caucasus's terrain holding a million ethnic groups today), which probably explains why those Maykop samples were only appreciably CHG.

  16. #141
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I did not know that thing about the WHG to EHG ratio in BB samples. Really a very intriguing finding, and one which at the very least suggests the true genetic formation of that population was more complex, multilayered. Just so you do not forget it I will add: your hypothesis to explain how that outcome would have happened has verosimilitude. Lol
    Lol, great word. This is probably also related to why the Basques have such high WHG.

  17. #142
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    I checked on MDLP K11 by the way, the only four populations that came up with any significance were WHG, EHG, Iran-Mesolithic and Neolithic (which makes sense - I'm assuming Neolithic is something like ANF, but it doesn't really matter).

    Here's the two Bell Beaker samples I have on GEDmatch from Germany, both well East of the Rhine (so, if anything, their Eastern ancestry would be enhanced from mixing with Corded Ware):




  18. #143
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,749
    Points
    28,988
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,988, Level: 52
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 762
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Clearly, you shouldn't be so sure of yourself:

    "We may imagine the domestication of the horse was the final ingredient in a package of innovations that enabled the creation of something the world had never seen before: highly mobile, mounted warriors on horseback, shielded in bronze armor and wielding terrifying new weapons of bronze, with logistical support provided by wheeled wagons."

    Whose is this excerpt? I mean, horse-riding warfare only has strong evidences from the mid-late Bronze Age onwards and was probably a decisive factor for the Indo-Iranian expansion, but as far as I know there is no reliable evidence that people of the late Chalcolithic and early BA like the Yamnaya were mounted warriors. They had domesticated the horse, but all that can be said with certainty is that they used them as an animal of traction complementing wheeled wagons (and possibly later war chariots), besides other uses like milk and meat. The early Bronze Age was the time of wagons and chariots, not exactly the archetypical Scythian and later Turkic or Mongol cavalry warfare.

  19. #144
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    By the way if Casteluccio in Sicily and El Argar in Spain pop up suddenly around 2200 BC and show Aegean motives... such date is near to what I have in mind about proto-Greeks entering Greece... and moreover by 2300-2200 BB were pushing peoples in Central Europe also.

    And not too late from that we see new WHG+EEF in the steppe delivering there Sintashta and Andronovo with their Indo-Iranic languages.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  20. #145
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,749
    Points
    28,988
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,988, Level: 52
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 762
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I don't know what that's referring to, but if it was actually found to be probably pre-L51 everyone would have gone nuts by now. When do these samples date to? If Yamnaya, I very much doubt that it is legit. Danubian Yamnaya was clearly Z2103, the only hope for L51 from the Steppe is a pre-Yamnaya migration.
    I still think that, apart from the lower Danube area, the last phases of Cucuteni-Tripolye should also be considered, as it was clearly, in archaeological terms, a culture under heavy steppe influence, reasonable continuity, but also marked changes in a direction suggesting more gradual homogeneization with the steppe neighbors (and all of that righ after a seemingly steppe culture expansion. The L51 may have been an earlier less succesful branch of L23 in Europe that was present in the Carpathians and its slopes, not in the steppes, and it was IEized before exploding in frequency.

  21. #146
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,749
    Points
    28,988
    Level
    52
    Points: 28,988, Level: 52
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 762
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By the way if Casteluccio in Sicily and El Argar in Spain pop up suddenly around 2200 BC and show Aegean motives... such date is near to what I have in mind about proto-Greeks entering Greece... and moreover by 2300-2200 BB were pushing peoples in Central Europe also.

    And not too late from that we see new WHG+EEF in the steppe delivering there Sintashta and Andronovo with their Indo-Iranic languages.
    All of that, which would clearly have been a maritime-based military and trade enterprise (therefore probably strongly male biased), would have spread no uniform successful haplogroup or haplogroups even if they had been part of one and the same expansion wave? R1b-Z2103 and J2a in Greece, but mainly L51 in BB, but mainly R1a-Z93 (downstream of typical M417 of CWC)? Would those men have simply absorbed males and given them good opportunities to have success and spread their lineage?

  22. #147
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,025
    Points
    16,764
    Level
    39
    Points: 16,764, Level: 39
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 486
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Didn't the Caucasus paper fail to find any EHG in Maykop, which is North Caucasus? If Maykop lacked it then I doubt the region of Armenia in South Caucasus would have non-negligible EHG. Unless, I think, if the steppe people had really roamed through and settled in the Caucasus after the Bronze Age, possibly even the Proto-Graeco-Armenians themselves. I know CHG had a small amount of EHG-related ancestry, but I assume the authors would be able to notice that a CHG source fits their genetic makeup better than a pure EHG one.
    Yeah this is a good point which Angela also said. Is the scenario that Markod mentioned a feasible way for such a population to pick up EHG?:

    "My guess is that even if they came from Anatolia, they would have come via the steppe regions of Bulgaria to mainland Greece and the Peloponnese. Drews in his new book sees Greco-Armenian develop in the Trialeti culture, and that's the general route he outlines."
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  23. #148
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,444
    Points
    50,297
    Level
    69
    Points: 50,297, Level: 69
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 853
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    ". However, all the Bronze Age populations also have ancestry related to the Caucasusor Iran, consistent with their shift in PCA (Fig. 1b). This shift began in Anatolia no later than theChalcolithic (3943-3708 calBCE)16 and was not evident in Greece by the time of the Final Neolithic(4,230–3,995 calBCE) individual from Kleitos14 that resembled (like all other Greek Neolithicindividuals) Anatolian farmers (Fig. 1b). The newly reported Neolithic individual from Diros Cave inthe Peloponnese (where most of the Mycenaean samples are from) did not have this ancestry as late as5479-5338 calBCE (Extended Data Table 1). (Future studies may show when the transformationoccurred in Greece, but by the time of the Minoan and Mycenaean samples, both populations tracedsome ancestry to this eastern source, as did the southwestern Anatolians from Harmanören Göndürle.
    I was not aware that the Diros Cave didn't have Iran ancestry.
    The expansion of EEF from Central Anatolia to the Bosporus and Europe started only ca 8.5 ka, while first farmers arrived in Crete and Greece already ca 9 ka.
    These farmers were semi-nomadic herders and the first to have ceramics (which Central Anatolia had only 8.5 ka) and probably made dairy products.
    They came from SE Anatolia and the northern Zagros. They settled in western Anatolia and crossed the Aegean.
    I would suspect their DNA was a mixture of Levantine and Iranian, but they must have been whiped out by incoming EEF from Bulgaria and the Carpathian Basin.

  24. #149
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,629
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,629, Level: 24
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 421
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    I mean... we have samples from Bronze Age Southeast Europe and Anatolia, wich none of them are R1b. So if the El Argar R1b was a maritime migration ( ultimately from Black Sea? ) why wouldn't Anatolians IE came by the Sea to Anatolia too?

  25. #150
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    that's not the picture in mind, BB would push CWC towards south (Greek) and east (Indo-iranian), pushing at the same time Pelasgians westwards as east and south were occupied already by advanced civilizations.

Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •