New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

[markod]

I think it's more likely that Greek speakers came from Balkans. On the other hand, it's very unlikely that they also came to Anatolia from Balkans because there is no steppe ancestry and no anthropological change until 2000 BC there with Indo European names in North Syria from 2500 BC.

My guess is that even if they came from Anatolia, they would have come via the steppe regions of Bulgaria to mainland Greece and the Peloponnese. Drews in his new book sees Greco-Armenian develop in the Trialeti culture, and that's the general route he outlines.

 

[Milan.M]

If there was no "steppe" in Anatolia, and that's what the current samples show, that seems to be a problem for the Anatolia entry hypothesis.

And how we can know who brought the language if there was both steppe and Iran_Neo let's say in similar percentage?

 

[Lenab]

Greek and Armenian were once the same language. If Greek speakers came from Balkans where did Armenians came from? Clearly Greek speakers and Armenian were Anatolian populations

They're from Anatolia the Pontian part which is West or West East

 

[Lenab]

I think it's more likely that Greek speakers came from Balkans. On the other hand, it's very unlikely that they also came to Anatolia from Balkans because there is no steppe ancestry and no anthropological change until 2000 BC there with Indo European names in North Syria from 2500 BC.

The Near Eastern genetics came from Anatolia into the Levant it wasn't indiginous it's indiginous to Anatolia that kind of farming migration came later.

That's why it's sloppy to call the Near East the Levant, the Levant is just something the French coined when they colonised it it was always known as Greater Syria too and rightly so because after they came from Anatolia those farmers then moved onto North Syria and not much else of the Levant.

The recording of the farmers in Jordan and West Bank of Palestine for example are minimal it was mostly done in North Syria because only then after Anatolia.

 

[halfalp]

Armenians came as Phrygians. Why not?

 

[Lenab]

Armenians came as Phrygians. Why not?

That's only part of their ancestry and genetics

 

[Ygorcs]

Yes!!!! We have a 7000bc ehg in Romania. So I have been asking all over what happens when South Caucasus meets that EHG? would it not create a fake yamnaya? Even wrote a post about it... Asked around but got nowhere. Nobody seemed to be able or willing to answer.

That is exactly the reason why many models using many reasonably proximate and plausible populations as hypothetical sources of ancestry must be tested, not trying to use the ones that the author previously wants to find. The closest fits will be the model nearer to the actual truth, though probably in a kind of simplified way, but the essence will be there. I think a good analysis could make sure that a model with separate EHG and Iran-Neo do not get conflated with Yamnaya/Steppe. Can we just assume EHG in BA steppe was still exactly identical to EHG in mesolithic Karelia or Romania?

There was certainly substructure within these broad labels like EHG and Iran-Neo, so using several proxy populations, especially contemporary genetic structures (honestly I do not think a 7000 BC EHG has a lot to say to us about demographic events in Europe in 3000 BC), instead of just a few samples, because that paucity may cause the algorithms to assign ancestry to the closest but still different source. I actually think that is what must be happening with their suspiciously too high Yamnaya-like admixture in modern Northeast Europeans like the Saami and even in ancient samples if the region, with the extra EHG that existed before totally disappearing. As Angela implied if I understood her correctly, I think that somehow the model ended up "splitting" EHG and attributing part of it to WHG, another part to Nganasan and another to Iran-Neo within Yamnaya.

 

[markod]

I think a good analysis could make sure that a model with separate EHG and Iran-Neo do not get conflated with Yamnaya/Steppe.

I really doubt it. Even seemingly cohesive populations are too internally diverse to allow for that kind of accuracy.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I really doubt it. Even seemingly cohesive populations are too internally diverse to allow for that kind of accuracy.

I agree, I think you would need an insane amount of samples to get the specific fingerprint of the genetic signature of hybrid populations separate from the sum of their components, and it may actually be straight up impossible even in ideal circumstances if population growth was low from the point of hybridisation up until the sample date of this hybrid. I definitely agree with Olympus Mons about the idea that EHG present in Balkan HGs, added to some CHG picked up in West Asia, could emulate Steppe (and I'm taking credit for once for coming up with that idea! ).

Also, to Ygorcs, about the point I raised but didn't know the answer to - I've checked, and I'm right that it is the case that Beaker folk have a high WHG:EHG ratio, which indeed cannot easily be explained by Steppe + European Neolithic (given the WHG:ANF ratio, it can't be the case that the higher WHG than EHG was picked up from European Neolithic types, as then you'd have considerably more ANF ancestry). A source of EHG ancestry in the Balkans (from a population with a high WHG:EHG ratio), similar to Iron Gates, makes far more sense than the Steppe itself.

 

[Daniel D]

I wonder whether the Greek myth about Prometheus being chained to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus as a punishment for bringing the secret of fire to humanity is an echo of the memory of the ancestors of the ancient Greeks learning bronze metallurgy from the Caucasus civilizations.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I wonder whether the Greek myth about Prometheus being chained to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus as a punishment for bringing the secret of fire to humanity is an echo of the memory of the Greek ancestors learning bronze metallurgy from the Caucasus civilizations.

That is clearly pushing it very far - I'm not against looking to mythology to learn about history (the Bible for example is surprisingly useful), but come on that is very fanciful. Hephaestus, maybe, is better to look into, as he is specifically the god of metallurgy and making things like weapons (fire is more generic surely).

It seems, through comparative mythology, that there is a common origin of this archetypal god in West Asia, as it is present in roughly the same form in Nordic mythology and in various West Asian mythologies (even in Egyptian mythology) - it's obviously more likely that the Norse god was influenced via West Asian influences in Yamnaya than Egypt via the Steppe.

Interestingly enough, the Ossetian god of metallurgy is Kurdalægon - which comes from Kurd and Alæ (meaning blacksmith and Aryan respectively - so an Aryan blacksmith). So, maybe the Kurds (perhaps even before their modern Iranian identity) are named as such because of their reputation as metallurgists?

 

[Lenab]

I wonder whether the Greek myth about Prometheus being chained to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus as a punishment for bringing the secret of fire to humanity is an echo of the memory of the Greek ancestors learning bronze metallurgy from the Caucasus civilizations.

I suggest you read the link I provided

 

[Daniel D]

That is clearly pushing it very far - I'm not against looking to mythology to learn about history (the Bible for example is surprisingly useful), but come on that is very fanciful. Hephaestus, maybe, is better to look into, as he is specifically the god of metallurgy and making things like weapons (fire is more generic surely).

I agree to an extent, but it is an odd coincidence that Greek mythology held Prometheus to have been chained in the Caucasus mountains as opposed to other locations. Perhaps so much time had passed that the Greeks no longer remembered which important innovation their remote ancestors received from the Caucasus, but they nevertheless remembered it was something important, which eventually became fire in the stories. After all, classical Greece civilization was more than 1500 years after the hypothetical transmittal of the knowledge.

I'm not saying there's necessarily a link, but it was something that I've thought about ever since I first heard about the possibility of the interrelationship between PIE and Maikop. Do any other Indo-European groups place a significant mythological knowledge giver in the Caucasus?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I agree to an extent, but it is an odd coincidence that Greek mythology held Prometheus to have been chained in the Caucasus mountains as opposed to other locations. Perhaps so much time had passed that the Greeks no longer remembered which important innovation their remote ancestors received from the Caucasus, but they nevertheless remembered it was something important, which eventually became fire in the stories. After all, classical Greece civilization was more than 1500 years after the hypothetical transmittal of the knowledge.

I'm not saying there's necessarily a link, but it was something that I've thought about ever since I first heard about the possibility of the interrelationship between PIE and Maikop. Do any other Indo-European groups place a significant knowledge giver in the Caucuses?

I mean, I agree with what you're pointing to in a roundabout way, but it's too fanciful. If he specifically brought metallurgy to the Greeks, then I'd count it as one line of evidence, but fire is more primal and basic.

 

[Daniel D]

I mean, I agree with what you're pointing to in a roundabout way, but it's too fanciful. If he specifically brought metallurgy to the Greeks, then I'd count it as one line of evidence, but fire is more primal and basic.

I agree that the argument for a connection would be stronger if it were specifically about Hephaestus and metallurgy rather than Prometheus and fire. According to the Wikipedia page to which you linked, however, some versions of the Prometheus myth have him stealing fire from Hephaestus' forge, so there is some (attenuated) connection to Hephaestus' forge in the Prometheus myth.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I agree that the argument for a connection would be stronger if it were specifically about Hephaestus and metallurgy rather than Prometheus and fire. According to the Wikipedia page to which you linked, however, some versions of the Prometheus myth have him stealing fire from Hephaestus' forge, so there is some (attenuated) connection to Hephaestus' forge in the Prometheus myth.

I suppose, but it's still too weak to be considered a good line of evidence. The story of the Argonauts might be interesting as well (given they sailed to the Caucasus for the golden fleece), but again its questionable at best to be used as evidence of anything.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

What they call 'Iran-related' is probably CHG and they are talking about predominately EEF groups with CHG admixture similar to the 'Minoans'
and what they call 'Steppe-related' is just 'Steppe-like' and partially so.

They could have used labels like 'Aegean-related' and 'Central-Europe-related'. They would have been less wrong.

 

[Ygorcs]

Yes that was my point. The hypothetical Proto-Graeco-Armenian stage dates to the 3rd millennium BC and would be placed somewhere around Armenia. Placing the proto mycanean speakers in a place where they would have ampl Iran_neo/chg but possibly also EHG from contact with caucauses. But you are right the paper says that the Iran_neo
has reached Europe BY 1500BC.
But ill be honest i never quite understood the supposed northern route of greeks entry into southern europe.

Didn't the Caucasus paper fail to find any EHG in Maykop, which is North Caucasus? If Maykop lacked it then I doubt the region of Armenia in South Caucasus would have non-negligible EHG. Unless, I think, if the steppe people had really roamed through and settled in the Caucasus after the Bronze Age, possibly even the Proto-Graeco-Armenians themselves. I know CHG had a small amount of EHG-related ancestry, but I assume the authors would be able to notice that a CHG source fits their genetic makeup better than a pure EHG one.

 

[Ygorcs]

Also, to Ygorcs, about the point I raised but didn't know the answer to - I've checked, and I'm right that it is the case that Beaker folk have a high WHG:EHG ratio, which indeed cannot easily be explained by Steppe + European Neolithic (given the WHG:ANF ratio, it can't be the case that the higher WHG than EHG was picked up from European Neolithic types, as then you'd have considerably more ANF ancestry). A source of EHG ancestry in the Balkans (from a population with a high WHG:EHG ratio), similar to Iron Gates, makes far more sense than the Steppe itself.

I did not know that thing about the WHG to EHG ratio in BB samples. Really a very intriguing finding, and one which at the very least suggests the true genetic formation of that population was more complex, multilayered. Just so you do not forget it I will add: your hypothesis to explain how that outcome would have happened has verosimilitude. Lol

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Didn't the Caucasus paper fail to find any EHG in Maykop, which is North Caucasus? If Maykop lacked it then I doubt the region of Armenia in South Caucasus would have non-negligible EHG. Unless, I think, if the steppe people had really roamed through and settled in the Caucasus after the Bronze Age, possibly even the Proto-Graeco-Armenians themselves. I know CHG had a small amount of EHG-related ancestry, but I assume the authors would be able to notice that a CHG source fits their genetic makeup better than a pure EHG one.

Armenian Chalcolithic (Areni-1), predating those Maykop samples, had a very decent amount of EHG (and as mentioned, one of them was a blue-eyed, pale redhead). The upcoming Caucasus paper basically says that different pockets of the Caucasus had very different ancestry despite being part of the same cultural horizon (much like the Caucasus's terrain holding a million ethnic groups today), which probably explains why those Maykop samples were only appreciably CHG.