New conference on Bronze Age mobility in Europe

He's referring to Hamsicora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampsicora

His name has been compared to Amsigurra, a berber woman in one of Plauto's commedies, and to a lake in North Africa. But usually the same scholars who make this comparison tend to emphasize Sardinians' North african ancestry excessively and unscientifically, going as far as saying that Sardinia was populated since prehistory from North Africa, or even taking Cicero's slanderous speech as a historical source, because in that speech he says that Sardinians were born out of the union of Phoenicians and Africans. Eitherway anyone who's familar with academical literature about ancient Sardinian knows that it's a common trend, especially among italian and sardinian scholars, to claim that Sardinians have North african origins.

Guess it's time they read some genetics papers then, yes?
 
Could the Terramare cultures be a forebear of the Latin people? If the link to central Europe is evident, look for downstream branches such as DF27+ and U152+ which are both quite common in Italy today.

I don't think the presence of Iran_Neo in Sardinia would indicate IE lanaguage but rather influence from the eastern Aegean. Last I checked, they didn't speak an IE language. Anyhow, I wouldn't put too much emphasis in the exact dates, but the Iran_Neo could be Phoenician related ancestry from the Mid East. No doubt these guys would have carried Iran_Neo.
 
Terramare=Latins is the old thesis of Pigorini..maybe he was right after all..

Iran_Neo in Western Mediterranean could be Copper Age IMO. Material culture in Sardinia during early mid Bronze Age is Northern Italian like (Polada-Asciano) while chalcolitic Monte Claro culture show eastern traits (oven tombs, leaf shaped daggers)

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If memory serves, not much DF27 in Italy at all, other than a bit in Liguria and adjacent areas. Of course, it might have been wiped out.

Thanks for the advice, but everyone knows to look for clades of U-152.

As for Iran Neo, if you're thinking of Saetrus' use of an admixture chart from Chiang et al, it is not labeled Iran Neo. (See discussion upthread) Amateur made "models" from the internet don't count.

Even if it were Iran Neo, the amount in any Sardinians, including the most admixed ones of places like Cagliari, is tiny.

So, as I've opined before, it doesn't seem as if the Phoenicians in Sardinia left a big impact, which anyone who has made a study of their colonization patterns would have known. They were more like the British East India Company than the British migration to the U.S.

Spain may have been different. We'll have to wait and see.

@Cato,
Yes, part of the increase in this component may be because of movement from the east in the late Neolithic/Chalcolithic and may have little to do with the Phoenicians. I still think the J in Spain may be because of that, not necessarily the Phoenicians and Carthaginians.
 
He's referring to Hamsicora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampsicora

His name has been compared to Amsigurra, a berber woman in one of Plauto's commedies, and to a lake in North Africa. But usually the same scholars who make this comparison tend to emphasize Sardinians' North african ancestry excessively and unscientifically, going as far as saying that Sardinia was populated since prehistory from North Africa, or even taking Cicero's slanderous speech as a historical source, because in that speech he says that Sardinians were born out of the union of Phoenicians and Africans. Eitherway anyone who's familar with academical literature about ancient Sardinian knows that it's a common trend, especially among italian and sardinian scholars, to claim that Sardinians have North african origins.

This case is reinforced with names like those of Qdabinel, Iamucaris, Hannibal, Osurbal, etc.
 
This case is reinforced with names like those of Qdabinel, Iamucaris, Hannibal, Osurbal, etc.

But those are mostly names coming epigraphs belonging to the citizens of the coastal towns of the South West, which had been under Phoenician and later Punic influence for several centuries, so it doesn't have much to do with the sardinian rebels, of whom we know only two names: Ampsichora whose berber origin of the name is disputable, and his son Hostus/Iostus whose name seems indigenous, both of them came from Cornus in the North West. We only know the names of the inhabitants of the interior such as the Iliensi and Balari thanks to some epigraphs dating to the roman period, and most of their names seem of local origin: Ithoccor/Orzocco, Torbenus, Silesius, Nispella etc. They're all which are only found in Sardinia, and the Giudici and previous Archons/Protospatharoi of the middle ages will very often use those names.
 
Pygmalion*, with all due respect, I think Berun is leading you down a rabbit hole. :)

Of course names are not necessarily reliable indicators of ethnicity. Natives are often renamed by conquerors, or they're adopted by the lower classes after a certain period of time. In the Middle Ages do you know how many people in Italy were named Matilde and Otto and Erminia and on and on? Would anyone seriously suggest they were all or even partly Gothic, or Langobard, or Frank in actuality? Was the German war leader Arminius Roman because he bore a Roman name? How about all those Balkanite boys who wound up in the Ottoman forces, like Barbarossa? Anyone think this half Albanian, half Greek with a formal Turkish name was Italian? :)

People who emphasize "names" as proof of substantial admixture usually have some ax to grind, and from what I have seen it's usually for the purpose of t-rolling Italians about all their "Levantine" ancestry, as if that's something of which to be ashamed. Of course, not accusing Berun of that at all. It was merely an observation. To digress, I do find it ironic that t-rolls of the first order like Sikeliot (and all his socks) at anthrogenica express shock that some Europeans (not I clearly) might have a problem with having Levantine ancestry when as Portuguese Princess he spent years vehemently arguing that his mother's people, Spaniards, had none of that tainted ancestry while his detested Sicilian father's people were riddled with it.

Ah well, sorry, back to the point at hand.

We have luckily passed beyond the point where we look for answers to names and the contradictory transcribed legends put down by ancient writers. We now have genetics, and the genetics seem to be telling us certain things although it will be a while before we have clarity.

It seems that some time from the late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, another, slightly different migration came from Anatolia/the Aegean and spread west. I say late Neolithic/Chalcolithic partly from the archaeology, of Sardinia for example, and partly from the Admixture runs based on modern populations so beloved by people. Otzi lived in the Chalcolithic, and yet according to those measures he was about 22% "Caucasus" like. Now, that doesn't mean CHG like, but it does mean a farmer mix with high Iran Neo. Of course, he also had the "dreaded" Southwest Asian, as did the Gok farmers for that matter. :)

b0Wy9EJ.png
[/IMG]

In the Iron Age you have the movement of the Greeks and the Phoenicians west. We know that the Greeks created actual colonies and I don't doubt their genetic impact.

The Phoenicians are a bit different, and their impact, depending on the place, might be much smaller. From the Ibiza paper we see that it was a male migration. That makes sense, because as I've said before, the Phoenicians were more like the East India company than like the Greek colonization.

"The Phoenicians were not an agricultural people, because most of the land was not arable; therefore, they focused on commerce and trading instead. They did, however, raise sheep and sold them and their wool."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Phoenician_Civilization

The farms they set up were probably like the farms the Dutch East India company established at Cape Town: meant to supply their own people, the passing ships of their fleet, and for sale. Their mating patterns appear to have been the same as well.

So, was there a genetic "presence" on Ibiza of the Phoenicians? Yes, from that genome, incomplete as it is, it seems there was. It seems to be male mediated, with all "native" female input. Also, for our reading comprehension challenged "friends" at anthrogenica, it is essentially no longer present in the people of Ibiza. Everything depends on the size of the "other" lineages present before, during or after the time of an ancient sample, which I thought was obvious.

Now let's turn to Sardinia. What do all the newest papers tell us? They tell us that the Phoenicians were present in the southwest of the island for quite some time. What do we know from the genetics? We know that the percentage of Iran Neo on the island is exceedingly small, even in the southwest. I would again suggest our "friends" at anthrogenica read some PAPERS, like Chiang et al, which looks not only at the HGDP like people of the Gennargentu, but at the coastal cities. Unless, of course, they think these academics are also Nordicist Italians who have distorted the data?

As for the yDna, there's about 9% of the perhaps relevant "J" lineages, but the J2 at least could have come during the Bronze Age, not necessarily with the Phoenicians.

From Alessio Boatini:

J1-0
J1e-2.4
J2a-6.1
J2a2-1.2

Likewise, what looks like the Near Eastern and North African versions of E are present, for a total of about 7%.

E1b1b1b-1.2
E1b1b1c-6.1
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441#s6

So, why is there, according to Chiang's analysis of even southwestern coastal Sardinians, so little "Iran Neo" like ancestry, or Near Eastern heavy, North Africa heavy ancestry, which is what he's really measuring? I suppose for the same reason that 18% R1b results in so little steppe: not very numerous male mediated migration overwhelmed by "local" dna.

I don't see anything either very difficult or very ambiguous about this.

*Correction from Cato.
 
Cato, with all due respect, I think Berun is leading you down a rabbit hole. :)

Of course names are not necessarily reliable indicators of ethnicity. Natives are often renamed by conquerors, or they're adopted by the lower classes after a certain period of time. In the Middle Ages do you know how many people in Italy were named Matilde and Otto and Erminia and on and on? Would anyone seriously suggest they were all or even partly Gothic, or Langobard, or Frank in actuality? Was the German war leader Arminius Roman because he bore a Roman name? How about all those Balkanite boys who wound up in the Ottoman forces, like Barbarossa? Anyone think this half Albanian, half Greek with a formal Turkish name was Italian? :)

People who emphasize "names" as proof of substantial admixture usually have some ax to grind, and from what I have seen it's usually for the purpose of t-rolling Italians about all their "Levantine" ancestry, as if that's something of which to be ashamed. Of course, not accusing Berun of that at all. It was merely an observation. To digress, I do find it ironic that t-rolls of the first order like Sikeliot (and all his socks) at anthrogenica express shock that some Europeans (not I clearly) might have a problem with having Levantine ancestry when as Portuguese Princess he spent years vehemently arguing that his mother's people, Spaniards, had none of that tainted ancestry while his detested Sicilian father's people were riddled with it.

Ah well, sorry, back to the point at hand.

We have luckily passed beyond the point where we look for answers to names and the contradictory transcribed legends put down by ancient writers. We now have genetics, and the genetics seem to be telling us certain things although it will be a while before we have clarity.

It seems that some time from the late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, another, slightly different migration came from Anatolia/the Aegean and spread west. I say late Neolithic/Chalcolithic partly from the archaeology, of Sardinia for example, and partly from the Admixture runs based on modern populations so beloved by people. Otzi lived in the Chalcolithic, and yet according to those measures he was about 22% "Caucasus" like. Now, that doesn't mean CHG like, but it does mean a farmer mix with high Iran Neo. Of course, he also had the "dreaded" Southwest Asian, as did the Gok farmers for that matter. :)

In the Iron Age you have the movement of the Greeks and the Phoenicians west. We know that the Greeks created actual colonies and I don't doubt their genetic impact.

The Phoenicians are a bit different, and their impact, depending on the place, might be much smaller. From the Ibiza paper we see that it was a male migration. That makes sense, because as I've said before, the Phoenicians were more like the East India company than like the Greek colonization.

"[FONT=&quot]The Phoenicians were not an agricultural people, because most of the land was not arable; therefore, they focused on commerce and trading instead. They did, however, raise sheep and sold them and their wool."

[/FONT]The farms they set up were probably like the farms the Dutch East India company established at Cape Town: meant to supply their own people, the passing ships of their fleet, and for sale. Their mating patterns appear to have been the same as well.

So, was there a genetic "presence" on Ibiza of the Phoenicians? Yes, from that genome, incomplete as it is, it seems there was. It seems to be male mediated, with all "native" female input. Also, for our reading comprehension challenged "friends" at anthrogenica, it is essentially no longer present in the people of Ibiza. Everything depends on the size of the "other" lineages present before, during or after the time of an ancient sample, which I thought was obvious.

Now let's turn to Sardinia. What do all the newest papers tell us? They tell us that the Phoenicians were present in the southwest of the island for quite some time. What do we know from the genetics? We know that the percentage of Iran Neo on the island is exceedingly small, even in the southwest. I would again suggest our "friends" at anthrogenica read some PAPERS, like Chiang et al, which looks not only at the HGDP like people of the Gennargentu, but at the coastal cities. Unless, of course, they think these academics are also Nordicist Italians who have distorted the data?

As for the yDna, there's about 9% of the perhaps relevant "J" lineages, but the J2 at least could have come during the Bronze Age, not necessarily with the Phoenicians.

From Alessio Boatini:

J1-0
J1e-2.4
J2a-6.1
J2a2-1.2

Likewise, what looks like the Near Eastern and North African versions of E are present, for a total of about 7%.

E1b1b1b-1.2
E1b1b1c-6.1

So, why is there, according to Chiang's analysis of even southwestern coastal Sardinians, so little "Iran Neo" like ancestry, or Near Eastern heavy, North Africa heavy ancestry, which is what he's really measuring? I suppose for the same reason that 18% R1b results in so little steppe: not very numerous male mediated migration overwhelmed by "local" dna.

I don't see anything either very difficult or very ambiguous about this.
did you mean Pygmalion? I'm not familiar with Punic names

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did you mean Pygmalion? I'm not familiar with Punic names

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So sorry, Cato. It was indeed Pygmalion. I'll correct my post.
 
Pygmalion*, with all due respect, I think Berun is leading you down a rabbit hole. :)

Of course names are not necessarily reliable indicators of ethnicity. Natives are often renamed by conquerors, or they're adopted by the lower classes after a certain period of time. In the Middle Ages do you know how many people in Italy were named Matilde and Otto and Erminia and on and on? Would anyone seriously suggest they were all or even partly Gothic, or Langobard, or Frank in actuality? Was the German war leader Arminius Roman because he bore a Roman name? How about all those Balkanite boys who wound up in the Ottoman forces, like Barbarossa? Anyone think this half Albanian, half Greek with a formal Turkish name was Italian? :)

People who emphasize "names" as proof of substantial admixture usually have some ax to grind, and from what I have seen it's usually for the purpose of t-rolling Italians about all their "Levantine" ancestry, as if that's something of which to be ashamed. Of course, not accusing Berun of that at all. It was merely an observation. To digress, I do find it ironic that t-rolls of the first order like Sikeliot (and all his socks) at anthrogenica express shock that some Europeans (not I clearly) might have a problem with having Levantine ancestry when as Portuguese Princess he spent years vehemently arguing that his mother's people, Spaniards, had none of that tainted ancestry while his detested Sicilian father's people were riddled with it.

Ah well, sorry, back to the point at hand.

We have luckily passed beyond the point where we look for answers to names and the contradictory transcribed legends put down by ancient writers. We now have genetics, and the genetics seem to be telling us certain things although it will be a while before we have clarity.

It seems that some time from the late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, another, slightly different migration came from Anatolia/the Aegean and spread west. I say late Neolithic/Chalcolithic partly from the archaeology, of Sardinia for example, and partly from the Admixture runs based on modern populations so beloved by people. Otzi lived in the Chalcolithic, and yet according to those measures he was about 22% "Caucasus" like. Now, that doesn't mean CHG like, but it does mean a farmer mix with high Iran Neo. Of course, he also had the "dreaded" Southwest Asian, as did the Gok farmers for that matter. :)

b0Wy9EJ.png
[/IMG]

In the Iron Age you have the movement of the Greeks and the Phoenicians west. We know that the Greeks created actual colonies and I don't doubt their genetic impact.

The Phoenicians are a bit different, and their impact, depending on the place, might be much smaller. From the Ibiza paper we see that it was a male migration. That makes sense, because as I've said before, the Phoenicians were more like the East India company than like the Greek colonization.

"The Phoenicians were not an agricultural people, because most of the land was not arable; therefore, they focused on commerce and trading instead. They did, however, raise sheep and sold them and their wool."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Phoenician_Civilization

The farms they set up were probably like the farms the Dutch East India company established at Cape Town: meant to supply their own people, the passing ships of their fleet, and for sale. Their mating patterns appear to have been the same as well.

So, was there a genetic "presence" on Ibiza of the Phoenicians? Yes, from that genome, incomplete as it is, it seems there was. It seems to be male mediated, with all "native" female input. Also, for our reading comprehension challenged "friends" at anthrogenica, it is essentially no longer present in the people of Ibiza. Everything depends on the size of the "other" lineages present before, during or after the time of an ancient sample, which I thought was obvious.

Now let's turn to Sardinia. What do all the newest papers tell us? They tell us that the Phoenicians were present in the southwest of the island for quite some time. What do we know from the genetics? We know that the percentage of Iran Neo on the island is exceedingly small, even in the southwest. I would again suggest our "friends" at anthrogenica read some PAPERS, like Chiang et al, which looks not only at the HGDP like people of the Gennargentu, but at the coastal cities. Unless, of course, they think these academics are also Nordicist Italians who have distorted the data?

As for the yDna, there's about 9% of the perhaps relevant "J" lineages, but the J2 at least could have come during the Bronze Age, not necessarily with the Phoenicians.

From Alessio Boatini:

J1-0
J1e-2.4
J2a-6.1
J2a2-1.2

Likewise, what looks like the Near Eastern and North African versions of E are present, for a total of about 7%.

E1b1b1b-1.2
E1b1b1c-6.1
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441#s6

So, why is there, according to Chiang's analysis of even southwestern coastal Sardinians, so little "Iran Neo" like ancestry, or Near Eastern heavy, North Africa heavy ancestry, which is what he's really measuring? I suppose for the same reason that 18% R1b results in so little steppe: not very numerous male mediated migration overwhelmed by "local" dna.

I don't see anything either very difficult or very ambiguous about this.

*Correction from Cato.

I forgot something rather important. Some of the "E" as well as the trace SSA in the non-Gennargentu Sicilians may actually be from a later period, when the Carthaginians took over the island, treating it, it seems, as a granary for Carthage. It's unknown how many of them actually settled there, and how much of an impact they had eventually. Another reason for the little autosomal influence left may be because they did, in fact, rebel against Rome, were soundly defeated, and either killed or enslaved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sardinia#Phoenician_settlement
 
Well, sometimes, names are simply related to its ethnicity, it was so before Romans. By the way the Roman geographers assigned the mountain ranges to native tribes were the plains and coasts, the best lands, for Carthaginians, even putting the frontier between these peoples in a river splitting the island by halves. There are bilingual inscriptions Latin Punic, and Punic names, there is no doubt about Punic colonization, only its extent.

If nowadays such admixture and Y DNA is not so prevailing maybe its due by historical facts which favoured mountain herders over plain farmers (Roman conquest, Vandals, Byzantines, bad crops, aridity, etc.). Just we need more samples to track down all it.
 
In the South west Sardinia Y dna is:

I2a1 40%
R1b 25%
G2a 13%
E1b1 4%
J2a1 6%
J2b 4%
I2a 4%
I2b1 4%

http://www.didac.ehu.es/antropo/29/29-1/Calo.htm

It's the area with higher level of Yamnaya ~10% (Chiang latest paper)

mtDNA

H 40%
J 20%
U 12%
HV 10%
T 10%
RO 2%
I 2%
K 2%
X 2%

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Please don't be caught in the own traps that genetists are falling down, such steppe admixture is the lumping of the CHG share of Aegeans and Phoenicians. Please find first EHG and then be talk back.
 
it's not hard to believe that steppe in those sardinians is real, considering 25% R1b...mostly U152 i suppose

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How exactly should Steppe be false? If they found Steppe, they found EHG. You dont need pure EHG. If we need to imagine Steppe in Sardinians is " shared ancestry " with CHG, we can at the same time reevaluate most of ancestral DNA.
 
*Angela I remember reading in a previous paper that apparently there might have also been a movement in the opposite direction, since scientists might have found some european mtDNA in phoenician graves from Lebanon, but maybe I remember wrong.

I think that the possibility of an opposite gene flow shouldn't be discarded, I've recently found out about this in an article which mentioned the presence of foreigners in Carthage

"Some female names are composed of a theophoric element and a root, for example "MTNB'L": the root
being MTN which means "DON".
In addition to theophoric names, hypocoristics are widespread in Carthage.
The names to designate ethnic groups are rarely found. The most used are "MSRT", the Egyptian, and "SRDNT". the Sardinian.
From the work of A. Ferjaoui (40)"
 
Well, sometimes, names are simply related to its ethnicity, it was so before Romans. By the way the Roman geographers assigned the mountain ranges to native tribes were the plains and coasts, the best lands, for Carthaginians, even putting the frontier between these peoples in a river splitting the island by halves. There are bilingual inscriptions Latin Punic, and Punic names, there is no doubt about Punic colonization, only its extent.

If nowadays such admixture and Y DNA is not so prevailing maybe its due by historical facts which favoured mountain herders over plain farmers (Roman conquest, Vandals, Byzantines, bad crops, aridity, etc.). Just we need more samples to track down all it.

I don't think anyone here doubts that the Carthaginians conquered Sardinia, I only doubt that they left much of a genetic impact because that's what the genetic evidence suggests.

By the way the Roman geographers assigned the mountain ranges to native tribes were the plains and coasts, the best lands, for Carthaginians, even putting the frontier between these peoples in a river splitting the island by halves.

That's Pausanias referring to the mythical past of Sardinia. He said that the North of the Tyrsus river lived the Libyans and the natives, and South of the Tyrsus lived the Trojans and Greeks, and that they avoided fighting because they were equal in number, of course this can't be taken as a historical account.
 
But those are mostly names coming epigraphs belonging to the citizens of the coastal towns of the South West, which had been under Phoenician and later Punic influence for several centuries, so it doesn't have much to do with the sardinian rebels, of whom we know only two names: Ampsichora whose berber origin of the name is disputable, and his son Hostus/Iostus whose name seems indigenous, both of them came from Cornus in the North West. We only know the names of the inhabitants of the interior such as the Iliensi and Balari thanks to some epigraphs dating to the roman period, and most of their names seem of local origin: Ithoccor/Orzocco, Torbenus, Silesius, Nispella etc. They're all which are only found in Sardinia, and the Giudici and previous Archons/Protospatharoi of the middle ages will very often use those names.

You are tricky, the names (just 4 examples!) were found in the core of Sardinia (Aidomaggiore, Samugheo, Ula) except Posada which is in the east coast.
 
it's not hard to believe that steppe in those sardinians is real, considering 25% R1b...mostly U152 i suppose

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you can't link R1b with steppe as one-eyed genetists do, we have R1b in Kura Araxes, Ganj Dareh, etc. without steppe.
 

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