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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Ah, now that makes A LOT of sense. I was having trouble reconciling with the idea that mainland Greeks look so different from South Italians and Cretan Greeks in these Global25 average population samples (compare below). They look way too northern, as if having a really substantial post-Mycenaean genetic flow. East Sicilians have a lower distance from the Mycenaeans than those (Thessaloniki) Greeks, though that does not necessarily imply that's entirely because they descend from Mycenaeans more than those Greeks (it could be just a more similar admixture composition). On ther other hand, Cretan look too "eastern". What could explain so much extra Kura-Araxes-like and Levant_BA-like ancestry even already including Mycenaean + Minoan_Lasithi or Mycenaean + Minoan_Lasithi + Empuries? I really don't know.

    It's a real pity such a historically important area as Greece doesn't have more aDNA samples and a much more regionalized distribution of samples in these datasheets.
    Here is a study that includes modern Peloponnesian samples from every region of the Peloponnese. Many in fact cluster with Sicilians, and seem to be in between Sicilians and Cretan/Dodecanese Greeks, just like geography suggests, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. This is not an ancient sampled study, but it does give you an idea of how close modern southern Italians are to modern southern Greeks, which is obviously suggestive of the ancient respective populations as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Here is a study that includes modern Peloponnesian samples from every region of the Peloponnese. Many in fact cluster with Sicilians, and seem to be in between Sicilians and Cretan/Dodecanese Greeks, just like geography suggests, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. This is not an ancient sampled study, but it does give you an idea of how close modern southern Italians are to modern southern Greeks, which is obviously suggestive of the ancient respective populations as well.
    Nothing unexpected from a comparison that leaves out all the rest of the Balkans. Of course Greeks are similar to Sicilians on a European level.

    In any case, we should wait for the Italy paper since they seem to have all the answers, if the leaks are true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    So basically you think the Neolithic Central Italians and South Italians were already pretty much like the modern inhabitants (significant Levantine, Iranian, steppe ancestry and everything else), since the inland people's material culture didn't change much throighout the Metal Ages? That's basically what I can take from your perspective on the impossibility of successive migrations to Italy contributing to the cumulative non-EEF admixtures in those regions. I find that scenario very unlikely. Also, I believe you might be underestimating the positive effects of a dynamic, increasingly cosmopolitan coastal culture in Italy perhaps leading to their descendants to gradually become dominant also in numbers (and therefore in genetic impact).
    No, I think the southerners either came with the Apennine or the descendent Fossa culture.

    I think you're overestimating the importance of cities. Even Ravenna, Rome and Syrakus did not change the natural north-south cline in Italy. Ancient cities were frequently depleted.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The the early Apennine culture also roughly coincides with the appearance of J2a in Pannonia and J2b in Dalmatia and Sardinia. Not sure what happened there honestly, but archaeologically there are strong similiarities between the Balkans, the Carpathians and Italy in the MBA.
    Last edited by markod; 28-05-19 at 13:17.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Here is a study that includes modern Peloponnesian samples from every region of the Peloponnese. Many in fact cluster with Sicilians, and seem to be in between Sicilians and Cretan/Dodecanese Greeks, just like geography suggests, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. This is not an ancient sampled study, but it does give you an idea of how close modern southern Italians are to modern southern Greeks, which is obviously suggestive of the ancient respective populations as well.
    Indeed. Wish he'd included mainland Southern Italy, but the differences aren't big. They probably also overlap with the Peloponnese.





    Also interesting in terms of our discussions:


    Does Eurogenes never include these samples in his "calculators"? Why not?

    It seems the new paper is from Stanford. I sure hope Spencer Wells is not involved. He's been wrong almost as often as Eurogenes, and knows almost as little about ancient history as does the latter.


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    Is there any news about when the paper will be published?

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    I love, just absolutely love, how neither Eurogenes nor anybody at anthrogenica has made the slightest reference to the fact that they were absolutely and completely wrong about the autosomal signature of the Etruscans.

    At least "Agamemnon" has had the decency to make himself scarce. The rest have no honor whatsoever.

    Yet, they continue to make dogmatic pronouncements without even having the papers and samples in front of them. They know exactly what happened and why.

    I wonder if it has occurred to these geniuses that on top of everything else, it's going to be very difficult to figure out if the group found at Ostia, to speculate wildly, were "locals", or resident merchants from elsewhere. The only recent paper which has addressed this issue is the Langobard one. I certainly hope that they did isotope analysis on these finds.

    Don't bother to accuse me of not wanting my husband to be partly descended from Jews/Semites. His best friends, my best friend, people closer to us than family in some ways, are Jews. We'd be proud to be related to them.

    This is about "evidence"; finding it, piecing it together without biases. Think about the people who lead this "charge": a documented anti-semite, nordicist/slavicist who said Southern Italians should be kicked out of Europe, and a pro-Arab agitator and another anti-semite who hates his Sicilian father. Oh, and they know next to nothing about ancient history. Could they have been any more wrong about the Etruscans? Why was I right? Because I know the archaeology and the history and I didn't let my personal preferences influence my thinking. I've spent my life doing that and I wasn't about to become a different person because it has to do with Italian ethnogenesis. Anyone who has read my posts over the years will, in fact, not be surprised to hear that if I'm to be completely honest I'm a bit disappointed that Etruscans have apparently turned out to be this "northern". I'd actually have preferred them to be more "Cretan" like. I didn't let that preference influence my thinking, however. I just wish others were as honest.

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Etruscan more or less the indigenous peoples of the central Italian peninsula? Are they related to the old Neolithic peoples of Anatolia and so on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    No, I think the southerners either came with the Apennine or the descendent Fossa culture.

    I think you're overestimating the importance of cities. Even Ravenna, Rome and Syrakus did not change the natural north-south cline in Italy. Ancient cities were frequently depleted.
    Oh I see. I asked that because you said in your previous comment that there had hardly been any major changes in the Metal Ages as a whole. The Apennine culture is a very intriguing one for me, indeed.

    As for my reference to "dynamic, increasingly cosmopolitan coastal culture in Italy", I'm not referring necessarily to cities. I'm referring to the increasingly productive (economic progress ultimately derived mainly from primary sector activities: agriculture, animal husbandry, timber extraction, mining etc.) rural zones. Cities only ever appeared as a consequence of significant and earlier rural progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    My comment was very civil. He thinks that Italics were the natives from the neolithic era. That's simply not possible and certainly that's not what the PCA shows.

    Greeks in the PCA have a different symbol from the rest of southern Europe (Greek Macedonia, Greek Thessaly...). Starting from the Greeks, almost everything else is reconstructed.


    The original PCA


    Interesting! So Etruscans were close to modern Iberians, North Italians and Tuscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    Also interesting in terms of our discussions:
    It's interesting how much Cretans are shifted toward modern Anatolians and Levantines in comparison to the other Greek samples. The same pattern is seen using ancient (BA) Anatolian and Levantine samples. That cannot be attributed to Minoan ancestry, because even including the Minoan_Lasithi sample the Cretans still require extra Levantine and especially BA Anatolian admixture. Was there something in the post-Minoan history of Crete that I don't know?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by matty74 View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Etruscan more or less the indigenous peoples of the central Italian peninsula? Are they related to the old Neolithic peoples of Anatolia and so on?

    According to their genetic position the Etruscans seem to be a mixture of Neolithic European + Bronze age Bell Beaker and probably also with steppe ancestry. More or less as they are today the North Italians or Tuscans. Maybe Etruscans just a little more to the west than the modern population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Anyone who has read my posts over the years will, in fact, not be surprised to hear that if I'm to be completely honest I'm a bit disappointed that Etruscans have apparently turned out to be this "northern". I'd actually have preferred them to be more "Cretan" like. I didn't let that preference influence my thinking, however. I just wish others were as honest.
    Based on how many samples can we draw a conclusion on the origin of the Etruscans? Till now two unpublished studies were leaked, pre announced. These have limited amount of Iron Age samples, some leaks write about Neolithic ancestries of Iran and Levant plus Steppe ancestry, and some are talking about the ancestry of Early Farmers plus Bell Beaker ancestry. Without knowing the historical and archaeological background for each sample, and having so few samples, and not knowing the locations and the exact time of the individuals, and not knowing anything about their Y-DNA, how can we draw conclusions so easily? Which of the leaked ancestries are equal to the Proto Etruscans, and which to the Proto Latins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    According to their genetic position the Etruscans seem to be a mixture of Neolithic European + Bronze age Bell Beaker and probably also with steppe ancestry. More or less as they are today the North Italians or Tuscans. Maybe Etruscans just a little more to the west than the modern population.
    Which one of the three belongs to the Proto Etruscans and the Proto Etruscan language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    Based on how many samples can we draw a conclusion on the origin of the Etruscans?
    There have already been studies on Etruscan samples that had supported what the leak claims.
    Genetics is not saying anything new, scholars have been thinking for years that the Etruscans were native.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    It's interesting how much Cretans are shifted toward modern Anatolians and Levantines in comparison to the other Greek samples. The same pattern is seen using ancient (BA) Anatolian and Levantine samples. That cannot be attributed to Minoan ancestry, because even including the Minoan_Lasithi sample the Cretans still require extra Levantine and especially BA Anatolian admixture. Was there something in the post-Minoan history of Crete that I don't know?
    I don't think this is a lot. In any case, Crete was under Arab rule for a period, in what became known as Emirate of Crete, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete, which lasted for some 150 years or so. It was also under Ottoman rule for some 200 years, and used to have a large Muslim population. In 1821, during the Greek revolution, as much as 45% of the population on the island may have been Muslim, but most of them were local Cretan converts. In any case, all of these Muslims left with the population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923. Here is some additional information about them, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Turks.

    An ethnic map of Crete, around 1861. Turks and Muslim Greeks are in red, Orthodox Greeks in blue.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    Which one of the three belongs to the Proto Etruscans and the Proto Etruscan language?
    Proto Etruscan language is likely a remnant of the European Neolithic. Exactly as with the Iberians, Aquitains and Basques in Spain and southwest France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    There have already been studies on Etruscan samples that had supported what the leak claims.
    Genetics is not saying anything new, scholars have been thinking for years that the Etruscans were native.
    I am not talking about native or not... Neolithic => Bronze Age => Iron Age ... A lot of things happen during these time periods, a lot of migrations happen and population replacements happen...

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Proto Etruscan language is likely a remnant of the European Neolithic. Exactly as with the Iberians, Aquitains and Basques in Spain and southwest France.
    So you are talking about the Early European Farmers? Are the Early European Farmers the core of the original Proto Etruscans?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    So you are talking about the Early European Farmers? Are the Early European Farmers the core of the original Proto Etruscans?
    The Etruscans were no different from the other populations of the late Bronze and early Iron Age of south west Europe, the only difference is that they kept the pre-Indo-European language, just as the Iberians, Aquitains and Basques in Spain and southwest France, the Rhaeti in the Alps and many other populations who have not left traces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't think this is a lot. In any case, Crete was under Arab rule for a period, in what became known as Emirate of Crete, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete, which lasted for some 150 years or so. It was also under Ottoman rule for some 200 years, and used to have a large Muslim population. In 1821, during the Greek revolution, as much as 45% of the population on the island may have been Muslim, but most of them were local Cretan converts. In any case, all of these Muslims left with the population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923. Here is some additional information about them, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Turks.

    An ethnic map of Crete, around 1861. Turks and Muslim Greeks are in red, Orthodox Greeks in blue.
    Some Armenian families settled in Crete and exactly in Sfakia after that Phokas, an Armenian himself, liberated the island from the Arabs.
    17 Dec.
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    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Some Armenian families settled in Crete and exactly in Sfakia after that Phokas, an Armenian himself, liberated the island from the Arabs.
    Phokas's origin isn't certain. There have been authors who claimed he was of either Roman (as in Latin), Arab, Armenian, or Georgian descent. As for Armenian migrants in Crete, there weren't many, and it wasn't just in Crete. Armenians migrated since the Byzantine era to Thessaly, Macedon, Thrace and the islands of Crete and Kerkyra (Corfu), although again not many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    The Etruscans were no different from the other populations of the late Bronze and early Iron Age of south west Europe, the only difference is that they kept the pre-Indo-European language, just as the Iberians, Aquitains and Basques in Spain and southwest France, the Rhaeti in the Alps and many other populations who have not left traces.
    How can we be so sure they are no different(based on how many samples?)? Arent they a mix of Neolithic Farmers and Bronze Age Bell Beakers? And arent the Iberian Bell Beakers equal to the Neolithic Farmers? Genetically the EEF component(Anatolia_N, Iran_N, Levant_N) among the Etruscans should be equal to the proto Etruscan language. The EHG component should be equal to the populations of the proto Italic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    How can we be so sure they are no different(based on how many samples?)? Arent they a mix of Neolithic Farmers and Bronze Age Bell Beakers? And arent the Iberian Bell Beakers equal to the Neolithic Farmers? Genetically the EEF component(Anatolia_N, Iran_N, Levant_N) among the Etruscans should be equal to the proto Etruscan language. The EHG component should be equal to the populations of the proto Italic tribes.
    I've already read this on Anthrogenica. Are you the same user as Anthrogenica?

    I doubt that EEF component is Anatolia_N, Iran_N, Levant_N.

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    What do you think about this language and its likelihood of being related to Hittite?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymian_language

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