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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    :) .....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    Accroding to Anthrogenica, the Stanford Roman paper already has had samples in it uploaded to a academic database and the paper should be coming soon enough.
    Thanks for the heads up!

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    Originally Posted by kolgeh

    Iron age Italian populations - including Etruscans and Italic tribes - were very homogeneous and predominantly R1b-U152+. Romans on the other hand autosomally were closer to Aegean populations and Y dna wise were very diverse including R1b-U152, R1b-P312(xU152), R1b-U106, T, G2a, I1, E1b, J2a, J2b and J1 haplogroups.

    Italics have some G2a2b2a.

    G2a2b2a appears in central Italy. E and J appear mainly in Romans from southern Italy.

    First confirmed Italian R1b-U152 sample appears in early bronze age and predates urnfield culture.

    At least two Roman samples are J2a.

    Two Roman samples are J1. One of them is J1a2a1a-Y2293.

    The same guy on Anthrogenica who posted the leaked PCA is saying that the Etruscans and the Italics were R1b-U152+. Romans on the other hand autosomally were closer to Aegean population.

    Does it make sense?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    I'm asking Eupedia users for their opinion.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    It's impossible to have a rational discussion about this without the paper in front of us.

    If, by "Romans" being more "Aegean" like they mean some samples from Ostia, Rome's biggest port, then that conclusion is just plain stupid.

    I can't put it any more clearly than that.

    I mean, I know not everybody has a PHD or an IQ of 140+, but for crying out loud if some people don't have the mental capacity to examine these kinds of claims with some degree of intelligence they should just shut up.

    Of course, then there are those with agendas or mental health issues who muddy up the waters as well.

    Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm losing patience, not, I hasten to add, with you, but with the general level of stupidity and agenda driven content in the hobby as a whole.

    You have to define your freaking terms to make sense of all of this. If you don't, even having the samples in hand won't help. The people who built the first huts on the seven hills of Rome are not necessarily exactly the same people who belonged to the various tribes of the Republic, and those people are not necessarily completely similar to the inhabitants of Imperial Rome as defined as the city of Rome itself in the time of Augustus and after.

    To think that samples from Ostia, which more than likely might have been mostly merchants or sailors from lots of different parts of the empire, but predominantly perhaps from the east, should serve as the standard genetically for "Romans" is a whole different level of absurdity.

    All of that will have to be kept in mind when we have the actual samples, see their isotope values, their burial contexts, where they were found, and their dates.

    That isn't to say that I don't think there was steady gene flow from southern Italy north, because I think there was.

    I'll post later about some other findings from my book on Northern Italy during Roman times.


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    It may depend on the Period :) Pre or Post Roma Imperiale.

    I turned that Map around, now it’s easier to make sense of Italy. imo and others too.








    Nice!

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    Man, they're really geniuses over there at anthrogenica.

    "G2a2b2a appears in central Italy. [I presume in addition to the U-152] E and J appear mainly in Romans from southern Italy."

    DUH!!!!

    Romans in a general, imperial sense, people.

    Have these people ever read a single, even popularized and dumbed down book on the Romans???? That was a rhetorical question. The answer is no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I turned that Map around, now it’s easier to make sense of Italy. imo and others too.
    Good idea. I put in the labels inspired by the other PCAs.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I would suggest waiting, unlike "Generalissimo" until, as I said above, we have definite and precise information about where each sample was found, the date, the burial context, and the isotope analysis.

    I don't know how many of those samples, if any, come from places like Ostia, but if they do they're not terribly informative about Italian genetics as a whole.

    In terms of Italian genetics in general and Southern Italian/Sicilian genetics in particular it's the late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age which interests me more. Did most of the gene flow into Southern Italy/Sicily during that period come by way of the Balkans and Greece, or did some come directly from Anatolia or other places, or both? When did it start to arrive and in what numbers? What were Southern Italians/Sicilians like in the beginning of the first millenium BC before Greek colonization, and what were they like afterwards? Once we know the answers to those questions we'll be in better shape to understand precisely what was going on during the empire and after.

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    I agree. The studies have not yet come out, we do not know where the samples come from. In short, there are still no conditions for drawing conclusions.

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    imho We already know the Main Conclusion.

    We’ve been staring at it for months.

    The map is the Central Piece of the Study.

    Once they publish their findings, everything else will be details.

    ... and the debate will continue to go on.

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    sorry but can someone make any type of conclusion in regards to the 664 replies ?

    i suspect ancient northern romans were heavily celtic, judging by the roman busts anyway.

    prior to the celtic invasions/migrations there was the calcolitic invasions/migrations. now as italians are heavily R1B paternally and it seems they are maternally J2......is E hiding within J2. forexample did the calcolithic men took the E women ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    imho We already know the Main Conclusion.

    We’ve been staring at it for months.

    The map is the Central Piece of the Study.

    Once they publish their findings, everything else will be details.

    ... and the debate will continue to go on.
    what is the main conclusion ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    what is the main conclusion ?

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    The Etruscans are closer to the Northern Italians, and the Romans are closer to the Central and Southern Italians.

    The: who else, why, when, how much, how, ... we will wait for the study to confirm the details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The Etruscans are closer to the Northern Italians, and the Romans are closer to the Central and Southern Italians.

    The: who else, why, when, how much, how, ... we will wait for the study to confirm the details.
    what do you think ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    what do you think ?

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    There will be Romans shifting North, South, and South/East.

    I think that regardless of the findings, the study will be challenged by some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I would suggest waiting, unlike "Generalissimo" until, as I said above, we have definite and precise information about where each sample was found, the date, the burial context, and the isotope analysis.

    I don't know how many of those samples, if any, come from places like Ostia, but if they do they're not terribly informative about Italian genetics as a whole.

    In terms of Italian genetics in general and Southern Italian/Sicilian genetics in particular it's the late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age which interests me more. Did most of the gene flow into Southern Italy/Sicily during that period come by way of the Balkans and Greece, or did some come directly from Anatolia or other places, or both? When did it start to arrive and in what numbers? What were Southern Italians/Sicilians like in the beginning of the first millenium BC before Greek colonization, and what were they like afterwards? Once we know the answers to those questions we'll be in better shape to understand precisely what was going on during the empire and after.
    Spot-on questions, that's exactly what we need to know. Do we know when the paper (related to the leaked PCA) is due to get published? By the way, this is not the Moots paper we are awaiting any time now, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The Etruscans are closer to the Northern Italians, and the Romans are closer to the Central and Southern Italians..

    Romans in that PCA are definitely closer to Southern Italians. Abruzzesi are genetically Southern Italians even if more northern shifted than southern Italian average. Of course assuming that PCA is accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Spot-on questions, that's exactly what we need to know. Do we know when the paper (related to the leaked PCA) is due to get published? By the way, this is not the Moots paper we are awaiting any time now, correct?
    I don't know for sure but I don't think so. The Moots paper, from the little information I have, is centered only on the environs of Rome itself, and doesn't include Etruscans. I think the PCA may be from the paper that I think is coming from Stanford.

    My point throughout this discussion has been that people want to talk about what "Romans" were or were not like without defining what they mean by "Roman". I keep trying to get through to them that it has a different meaning through time, and applies to people from different genetic clusters through time. By the end of the Empire practically everyone within its borders would have considered themselves "Romans". The Byzantines considered themselves "Romans" for centuries after that. At what point does the term become meaningless for population genetics purposes, and especially as concerns Italian genetics?

    In terms of Republican Era Romans I would be quite surprised if the Republican Era "Romans" were "Aegean" like. I would expect them to be like other members of the Latin League and related groups, which is NOT to say that they were "Gaulish" like. I don't expect even northern Italians of the Republican period to be the same as the Gauls, of, well, Gaul. :)

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if inhabitants of many parts of southern Italy were "Aegean like" already during the Roman Republican Era period. I would expect Imperial Era Italians, which is the more appropriate term, in my opinion, even in the northern reaches of the peninsula, to be different from what they were like during the Republic, but the question is, how different? Did the cline still exist, even if less defined? Were the "Collegno" Italians of the late Empire the norm or was there variation? Although even there, not all were "Aegean" like. I'm extremely close to one, and I am not "Aegean" like.

    I would remind people that the "leaks", if accurate, say that in Republican Rome the "Romans" were split into two groups, one more "northern" Italian like, and one more "southern" Italian like. Note that none of them are Germanic like. So much for much of 19th and early 20th century anthropology. None plotted with Central Italians. If the papers show I'm on the wrong track, fine. I have no problem with being "slightly" wrong. :)

    The darkest red is the "original" Rome.



    Note that even the bright red is Rome and her "allies", not considered Romans by the Romans themselves.

    Timeline of the conquest of Italy:


    That's why the dates for each sample are crucial.

    @lynxbythetv (Could you people pick shorter, more recognizable "names"? Sometimes I don't address people by their names just because it's too annoying to reproduce them.)

    You think these people look "Celtic", do you?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know for sure but I don't think so. The Moots paper, from the little information I have, is centered only on the environs of Rome itself, and doesn't include Etruscans. I think the PCA may be from the paper that I think is coming from Stanford.

    An archaeologist friend of mine confirmed to me that Etruscan samples were sent to various laboratories for autosomal analysis.

    And then certainly Stanford has already analyzed some Etruscan samples 4 or 5 years ago.

    There are more than one university right now, so I'm guessing more than one study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Romans in that PCA are definitely closer to Southern Italians. Abruzzesi are genetically Southern Italians even if more northern shifted than southern Italian average. Of course assuming that PCA is accurate.
    So it would appear from the PCA. However, that doesn't square with the supposed "leak" that in Republican Rome there were "two" groups: one more Northern Italian like and one more Southern Italian like.

    The question is which to believe, if any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So it would appear from the PCA. However, that doesn't square with the supposed "leak" that in Republican Rome there were "two" groups: one more Northern Italian like and one more Southern Italian like.

    The question is which to believe, if any.

    In fact, they seem like two completely different things.


    Beyond the conclusions that might be correct or wrong, Hannah Moots is real and we know from published sources that she is really working on her study.


    On the rest so far only rumors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know for sure but I don't think so. The Moots paper, from the little information I have, is centered only on the environs of Rome itself, and doesn't include Etruscans. I think the PCA may be from the paper that I think is coming from Stanford.
    Thanks a lot for your answer. I agree with all of your points. These are all valid questions you raise, that require answering. Before we jump on conclusions we need to examine all of the details. Hopefully the paper (if real after all) will be worthwhile and able to provide answers.

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    This is not a thread about phenotypes.

    Anyone posting off topic responses to posts will find it has been deleted.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The rumour is that the majority of the samples used in the Stanford study, i.e. the one from which the PCA comes, were collected from Isola Sacra.

    If that is true, and it's a BIG if, this is not going to be a paper that necessarily tells us a lot of useful information about Italian genetics.

    Even Wiki knows that many of them aren't Italian. :)

    See:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isola_Sacra_Necropolis

    "The Isola Sacra Necropolis was the first large-scale pagan cemetery of Roman Imperial times to be excavated. The excavator-in-chief of most of Isola Sacra was Guido Calza. The necropolis was found on the manmade island of Isola Sacra, which lies between the cities of Portus and Ostia Antica, a region just south of Rome. The emperor Trajan was in power when this artificial island was created. Much of the excavated necropolis flanked the Via Severiana, which ran through Isola Sacra and traveled southeast from Ostica to Terracina."


    "A great number of the inscriptions on the tombs suggest Graeco-Oriental origin. Scholars believe this is because Portus and Ostica were a cosmopolitan towns where the bourgeois population was full of businessmen of non-Italian birth.[4] Latin, however, was the language that most townspeople used during the time that the necropolis was built. "


    Is that to say that there weren't Southern Italians who were similar to them? Absolutely not. It just means we won't be able to tell that from this paper.

    It also seems that there is some sort of amazed disbelief at the supposed leaks that the Etruscan samples studied didn't have any J1 and J2a. Now, maybe some will show up somewhere in the future, but for now they seem to have been G2a, J2b, and some form of R1b, like maybe R1b V88. The latter is totally unexpected, but who knows with rumours. Maybe the samples are degraded and they couldn't get good data. Still, as I said, no J1 and J2a.

    Some people really don't want to let go of that "Etruscans were from Asia Minor", even if it's only "Elite Etruscans were from Asia Minor".

    Tell me again these people aren't operating from an agenda, and even that they are whom they claim to be.

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