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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    What really turns me red is when these t-rolls on anthro forums either get some sort of amnesia when shown data from reputable journals and carry on with their ideas or when they play anthro forum chess and say things like "well there's not enough samples" (when there are ), "the scientists are politically motivated", "those so called Etruscans are only Etruscan culturally, not genetically", or my favorite: "just you wait and see, as more burial sites are uncovered, there will be more samples that are genetically X"
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    What you say is true in many respects. Many of us come from different backgrounds. For example I was raised in a cult as my wife; and forbidden to go to University with the penalty of having my friends and family never speaking to me again. So my perspective on peoples [outright criminals, like for example Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olsen as Canadian examples] behavior is different but similar to yours. My parents [ from the region of Poland/Germany/Prussia ]who were staunch catholic/protestants converted to a cult after surviving WW2 had a different perspective after witnessing first hand the horrors of human behavior. I will spare you the details of their hardship, however I still remember my mother digging in the garbage after I finished a half eaten sandwich scolding me for wasting food,saying I never new what it was like to be starving. Poles were treated very bad by Germans, some Poles had their surnames changed to make them sound more German[like ours]; it's not until you take a genetic test and the revelations that come with it that you can see all the people who you are related to, be it Polish,German,Italian, Czech, Lithunanian, etc.....Some Polish even have small amounts of Jewish ancestry, although you would never know by the way they act or post online. Sometimes the more we learn about a situation the more we grow in our understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    What really turns me red is when these t-rolls on anthro forums either get some sort of amnesia when shown data from reputable journals and carry on with their ideas or when they play anthro forum chess and say things like "well there's not enough samples" (when there are ), "the scientists are politically motivated", "those so called Etruscans are only Etruscan culturally, not genetically", or my favorite: "just you wait and see, as more burial sites are uncovered, there will be more samples that are genetically X"
    They’re purposely selective, and they omit or doubt the “Inconvenient Truth”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    What you say is true in many respects. Many of us come from different backgrounds. For example I was raised in a cult as my wife; and forbidden to go to University with the penalty of having my friends and family never speaking to me again. So my perspective on peoples [outright criminals, like for example Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olsen as Canadian examples] behavior is different but similar to yours. My parents [ from the region of Poland/Germany/Prussia ]who were staunch catholic/protestants converted to a cult after surviving WW2 had a different perspective after witnessing first hand the horrors of human behavior. I will spare you the details of their hardship, however I still remember my mother digging in the garbage after I finished a half eaten sandwich scolding me for wasting food,saying I never new what it was like to be starving. Poles were treated very bad by Germans, some Poles had their surnames changed to make them sound more German[like ours]; it's not until you take a genetic test and the revelations that come with it that you can see all the people who you are related to, be it Polish,German,Italian, Czech, Lithunanian, etc.....Some Polish even have small amounts of Jewish ancestry, although you would never know by the way they act or post online. Sometimes the more we learn about a situation the more we grow in our understanding.
    Sometimes, for those who are capable of it, hardship leads to great insight and understanding. You sound like one of those people. Thank you for sharing it with us.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I knew the mental midgets at anthrogenica would try to retaliate for me calling them out, but I honestly didn't think they'd be so lame about it.

    All these pronouncements about whether "Italy" or "Italians" exist before we have any halfway complete knowledge about Italian ethnogenesis is completely absurd.

    More importantly, as if any "pure" ethnicity exists anywhere, or as if there aren't clines in lots of countries.

    It's laughable.

    Look at our fake Jew:


    "As do I it goes with out saying that I feel a connection to ancient Israel, the Phoenicians and Carthaginians (hence my avatar being Hannibal Barca)."

    I'm now absolutely convinced he's just a Sikeliot sock. Nobody else could be this crazy or know so little about how Italians actually think and feel about these things.

    Going by this standard I should feel a connection with EHG people sitting in their yurts eating half raw meat. I carry their mtdna after all. What idiots.

    Or how about our fake Sicilian (half at most):


    " Originally Posted by SikeliotI would also say I identify more with ancient Greece rather than Rome and the primary reason for this is that Romans didn't go to Greece to experience and borrow Greek culture, they encountered it in southern Italy. Southern Italy was absolutely necessary for the development of Roman culture and identity, by virtue of its Greek culture.

    Though obviously with some family from right around Palermo as well, I also admire the Phoenicians.






    Sure you do, Sikeliot. That's why you spent years on the apricity, city data and here trying to prove Sicilians were inferior to the Portuguese. What's the matter, do you want to forget your years as "Portuguese Princess"?

    I'm going to treat this parading of genetic malpractice the way it deserves: I'm going to ignore it.

    As for the concept of Italy as a defined geographic space, and Italians as a group, I will address it, but only because I am discussing it in a thread I am preparing about Northern Italy in the Roman era. What even people with Italian citizenship don't know about their own history is a disgrace. They should yank it away from all of them.
    Last edited by Angela; 29-08-19 at 01:54.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I call for Unity!

    Italy is wearing the Helmet of Scipio who defeated Hannibal !!!

    from the Song of the Italians

    ... Italy has woken, Bound Scipio's helmet Upon her head...

    ... From the Alps to Sicily, Legnano is everywhere; ...
    ....

    remember this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I call for Unity!

    Italy is wearing the Helmet of Scipio who defeated Hannibal !!!

    from the Song of the Italians

    ... Italy has woken, Bound Scipio's helmet Upon her head...

    ... From the Alps to Sicily, Legnano is everywhere; ...
    ....
    They don't even know who the hell Scipio was, or Legnano.

    Let all the socks talk to each other.

    They're not Italians; they're fakes, phonies, and frauds, wannabes, or suffering from a massive inferiority complex about their own origins, and our history, our achievements, our very existence, is a threat to their perverted ideologies.

    I shouldn't let such know-nothings cause me to lose my temper, but we are who we are, all of us.

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    This is how it should be sung! :)



    A reminder even to me that not all Italians are gracile. :) Some of these guys definitely have more than the average amount of Neanderthal.

    It has to be said that the soccer players are better looking.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmzQnOelH0

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    who runs eurogenes ?

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

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    What’s in a Name:

    Calabria was called Italy, so the original Italians are the Calabresi.

    ... Italia, the ancient name of the Italian peninsula, which is also eponymous of the modern republic, originally applied only to a part of what is now Southern Italy ...

    ... during the reign of Augustus, at the end of the 1st century BC, the term was expanded to cover the entire peninsula until the Alps ...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Italy#Etymology

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    Why do I know that Calabria was called Italy?

    Because: Salento was called Calabria :)

    ... the name Calabria was originally given to the Adriatic coast of the Salento peninsula in Apulia ...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is how it should be sung! :)



    A reminder even to me that not all Italians are gracile. :) Some of these guys definitely have more than the average amount of Neanderthal.

    It has to be said that the soccer players are better looking.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmzQnOelH0
    rugby players naturally should be more robust and muscular than footballers thats it is rare to find a italian rugby player who look
    like totti ( which when i think on romans i see his face) :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    rugby players naturally should be more robust and muscular than footballers thats it is rare to find a italian rugby player who look
    like totti ( which when i think on romans i see his face) :)
    Well, I don't think Totti is particularly "gracile Med" looking either, but perhaps not like a rugby player. How much that "rugby" look is due to steroids is an open question, imo.



    Nor is Buffon "gracile". Takes after his Lunigianese mother. :)




    Diversity, diversity...

    One of my grandmothers was built like that. She could knock her sons flying when they were grown men, and did, once to my forty something year old father when she thought he stayed out too late celebrating a winning bid with his friends. "A decent man comes home to his family at a decent hour." WHACK! :)

    Perhaps more representative? Click only if you don't mind seeing men in their undies.
    http://whygo-eur.s3.amazonaws.com/ww.../dgad_2010.jpg

    The best body among them, bar none. Cannavaro...just gorgeous in every way. Napoli produces more than its fair share of beautiful people.
    https://static.flickr.com/73/180416708_4e5a918ba9_o.jpg

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    tell you the truth i am no expert in this field of anthropology and classifications
    there are many "experts" in this field in apricity or so do they think lol .....
    regards
    adam

    p.s
    not gay or something generally speaking italian man are good looking

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    K36 Similarity could match some of the Romans in the leaked PCA;





    Pre Imperial Roman



    Imperial+ Roman



    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps/page6
    :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know for sure but I don't think so. The Moots paper, from the little information I have, is centered only on the environs of Rome itself, and doesn't include Etruscans. I think the PCA may be from the paper that I think is coming from Stanford.

    My point throughout this discussion has been that people want to talk about what "Romans" were or were not like without defining what they mean by "Roman". I keep trying to get through to them that it has a different meaning through time, and applies to people from different genetic clusters through time. By the end of the Empire practically everyone within its borders would have considered themselves "Romans". The Byzantines considered themselves "Romans" for centuries after that. At what point does the term become meaningless for population genetics purposes, and especially as concerns Italian genetics?

    In terms of Republican Era Romans I would be quite surprised if the Republican Era "Romans" were "Aegean" like. I would expect them to be like other members of the Latin League and related groups, which is NOT to say that they were "Gaulish" like. I don't expect even northern Italians of the Republican period to be the same as the Gauls, of, well, Gaul. :)

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if inhabitants of many parts of southern Italy were "Aegean like" already during the Roman Republican Era period. I would expect Imperial Era Italians, which is the more appropriate term, in my opinion, even in the northern reaches of the peninsula, to be different from what they were like during the Republic, but the question is, how different? Did the cline still exist, even if less defined? Were the "Collegno" Italians of the late Empire the norm or was there variation? Although even there, not all were "Aegean" like. I'm extremely close to one, and I am not "Aegean" like.

    I would remind people that the "leaks", if accurate, say that in Republican Rome the "Romans" were split into two groups, one more "northern" Italian like, and one more "southern" Italian like. Note that none of them are Germanic like. So much for much of 19th and early 20th century anthropology. None plotted with Central Italians. If the papers show I'm on the wrong track, fine. I have no problem with being "slightly" wrong. :)

    The darkest red is the "original" Rome.



    Note that even the bright red is Rome and her "allies", not considered Romans by the Romans themselves.

    Timeline of the conquest of Italy:


    That's why the dates for each sample are crucial.

    @lynxbythetv (Could you people pick shorter, more recognizable "names"? Sometimes I don't address people by their names just because it's too annoying to reproduce them.)

    You think these people look "Celtic", do you?



    I can tell you a load of Swiss guys without any Italian ancestry do look like this, myself included. Even some French and British peoples do look like this. I call it the Alpine look, with those specific receding hairs, that you can brush from behind to the front. I think the Celtic Phenotype popularized is kinda overrated. In strong Eastern Hallstatt and La Tène compounds physical type was probably more leading towards Balkans and in Western compounds toward Alpine ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Silesian, you're talking about the whys of behavior. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you're saying there may be more behind people's actions than is apparent on the surface.
    I am really thankful of your posts because they helped my understanding of the evolution of the enthusiast forum crowd and confirm some of my own suspicions about certain posters and websites.

    There are alot of enthusiast websites on genetics with insidious agendas behind them, in my opinion (like openly ultra-racist ones), and a lot of their posters actively masquerading as academics while they manipulate data in order to push the outcomes that fit their own narrative.

    On one of those websites, in fact the most popular one (I am not mentioning it, I don't want to advertise, but you know which one it is) an air of academic discourse is actively mantained while, in fact, there is nothing of the sort. For example, on that website, the calculators and spreadsheets maintained by the aforementioned eastern european fellow are used as a gospel, not to be challenged by any means, and people (like me) who dare to question the validity of the methodology and sampling of the eurogene dogma are met with passive-agressive irony and disdain.

    The active posters there often misuse and abuse the naming of samples in order to push their own version of history and reality. An example I can give, without it being the only one or even a representative one, is mislabeling medieval and iron age samples as 'Ancient Macedonian', even though there is no such sample published to my knowledge by any academic institution, in order to push a certain narrative about the history of the southeastern parts of the Balkans. When met with questions about the validity of such naming practices, the authors either laugh it off saying that their spreadsheets and calculators are 'just for fun' or simply ignored.

    There are too many examples like this to give, but the general concept that emerges, in my eyes, is perfectly in-tune with the rise of modern-day ultra-right/alt-right nationalism and racism in Central/Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and its aggression towards the people of the so-called Near East/Levant. Any connection of their warped perception of what entails to be European must be cleansed by any influence, genetic or otherwise, from the East, the 'other', the 'invader'. Whether this invader is identified as CHG genes, Natufian genes, or w/e else, depends heavily on each poster.

    But the narrative remains the same.
    Last edited by dosas; 31-08-19 at 19:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I can tell you a load of Swiss guys without any Italian ancestry do look like this, myself included. Even some French and British peoples do look like this. I call it the Alpine look, with those specific receding hairs, that you can brush from behind to the front. I think the Celtic Phenotype popularized is kinda overrated. In strong Eastern Hallstatt and La Tène compounds physical type was probably more leading towards Balkans and in Western compounds toward Alpine ones.
    There’s a noticeable difference between the Swiss themselves.

    It's also possible that those guys have some Italian ancestors, but they don’t know it.

    (receding hair transcend ethnicity :)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    There’s a noticeable difference between the Swiss themselves.

    It's also possible that those guys have some Italian ancestors, but they don’t know it.

    (receding hair transcend ethnicity :)


    It's not about ancestry or ethnicity, it is about founding leaks in phenotypes. Its like when you look at Charlie Hunnam and you know his phenotype are likely of Anglo-Saxon or Vikings origin without knowing his ancestry wich could tell something else. Remember that Slonk Hill guy reconstructed from south england? This guy clearly looks of Alpine origin, he has this alpine-dinaric that differentiate him from what a local Bell Beaker phenotype would look like at this time. And Italians mainly northern, Swiss, French people have a continuum in some phenotypical aspects alongside southern germans and austrians. All the classical depictions of romans patricians shows an alpine guy, not a mediterranean one. There is a kind of a continuum. It's like a relic of ancient times, of ancient migrations, dont know what or when, but there is a thing. Like if i take myself, i'm R1b-U152 ( very italian right? ), everybody tells me i look like those classical roman sculptures, but my ancestry would show more dna linked to british islands than to italy. It's that old thing that link some of us europeans without a direct common origin or ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    There are too many examples like this to give, but the general concept that emerges, in my eyes, is perfectly in-tune with the rise of modern-day ultra-right/alt-right nationalism and racism in Central/Eastern Europe and elsewhere
    .
    "elsewhere". we aren't going to play victim here are we? and racism stays racism no matter against what kind of people or admixtures the hate goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    I am really thankful of your posts because they helped my understanding of the evolution of the enthusiast forum crowd and confirm some of my own suspicions about certain posters and websites.

    There are alot of enthusiast websites on genetics with insidious agendas behind them, in my opinion (like openly ultra-racist ones), and a lot of their posters actively masquerading as academics while they manipulate data in order to push the outcomes that fit their own narrative.

    On one of those websites, in fact the most popular one (I am not mentioning it, I don't want to advertise, but you know which one it is) an air of academic discourse is actively mantained while, in fact, there is nothing of the sort. For example, on that website, the calculators and spreadsheets maintained by the aforementioned eastern european fellow are used as a gospel, not to be challenged by any means, and people (like me) who dare to question the validity of the methodology and sampling of the eurogene dogma are met with passive-agressive irony and disdain.

    The active posters there often misuse and abuse the naming of samples in order to push their own version of history and reality. An example I can give, without it being the only one or even a representative one, is mislabeling medieval and iron age samples as 'Ancient Macedonian', even though there is no such sample published to my knowledge by any academic institution, in order to push a certain narrative about the history of the southeastern parts of the Balkans. When met with questions about the validity of such naming practices, the authors either laugh it off saying that their spreadsheets and calculators are 'just for fun' or simply ignored.

    There are too many examples like this to give, but the general concept that emerges, in my eyes, is perfectly in-tune with the rise of modern-day ultra-right/alt-right nationalism and racism in Central/Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and its aggression towards the people of the so-called Near East/Levant. Any connection of their warped perception of what entails to be European must be cleansed by any influence, genetic or otherwise, from the East, the 'other', the 'invader'. Whether this invader is identified as CHG genes, Natufian genes, or w/e else, depends heavily on each poster.

    But the narrative remains the same.
    Dont want to do the devil's advocat, but do you have exemples? European Far-Rights is targeting mostly Islam as a religion wich cannot enter in any way into the option of Racism but in Critical Thinking and not Middle-Easterners has a CHG or Natufian population.

    I think you mingle two things here, some europeans fears of their traditional lifestyle being targeted from outsider cultures wich is legitimate. To some kind of internet racialism were people are debating who is the master race and such.

    Because i never saw actual far right politicians actually talk about Yamnaya, Indo-Europeans, CHG or i dont know what else. Your point sounds confusing and just tied to Liberalism without any point to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    European Far-Rights is targeting mostly Islam as a religion wich cannot enter in any way into the option of Racism but in Critical Thinking and not Middle-Easterners has a CHG or Natufian population.
    that might be the case for the politicians (i somehow doubt that), but i'm sure many of the people who voted and thus helped this rise of the far-right have something against migrants in general not really because they are muslims. now if that is only tied to racism, i don't know but it certainly is part of it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    "elsewhere". we aren't going to play victim here are we? and racism stays racism no matter against what kind of people or admixtures the hate goes.
    Sorry, your tone reeks of white supremacist apologist rationale. Not all racism is the same, like for example institutionalized racism in the form of slavery and handicapped economic and political liberties on minorities or other groups of ethnic origin or "color" is not the same as a swiss italian, for example, on the internet getting his feelings hurt by some other poster.

    And I am not playing victim, even up until recently (and certainly an ongoing theme on anthro-forums) is the Greek ethnicity being targeted as 'non-European' enough (like that's even an issue for most Greeks) for Central/West European standards (or proponents of other ideologies like Pan-Slavism) due to admixture of the Greek population with other groups deemed as not 'white-enough'. Just take a look at the racist attacks of the German popular press against the Greek people, in the recent 'crisis' related events, something that other PIIGS countries (how imaginative and quaint) did not have to deal with, to this extent at least.

    Your e-outrage is misplaced and contrived, 'friend'. Angela's posts were spot on and very informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Dont want to do the devil's advocat, but do you have exemples? European Far-Rights is targeting mostly Islam as a religion wich cannot enter in any way into the option of Racism but in Critical Thinking and not Middle-Easterners has a CHG or Natufian population.

    I think you mingle two things here, some europeans fears of their traditional lifestyle being targeted from outsider cultures wich is legitimate. To some kind of internet racialism were people are debating who is the master race and such.

    Because i never saw actual far right politicians actually talk about Yamnaya, Indo-Europeans, CHG or i dont know what else. Your point sounds confusing and just tied to Liberalism without any point to make.
    Yeah, let's not play dumb, most people in the alt/extreme-far right don't know what CHG/Natufian admixture is, but proponents of such ideologies on forums like this one certainly do, and in the past, as Angela has attested before, have lost their shit when they discovered that their blue eyed/blond hair aryans had significant CHG admixture, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Sorry, your tone reeks of white supremacist apologist rationale. Not all racism is the same, like for example institutionalized racism in the form of slavery and handicapped economic and political liberties on minorities or other groups of ethnic origin or "color" is not the same as a swiss italian, for example, on the internet getting his feelings hurt by some other poster.

    And I am not playing victim, even up until recently (and certainly an ongoing theme on anthro-forums) is the Greek ethnicity being targeted as 'non-European' enough (like that's even an issue for most Greeks) for Central/West European standards (or proponents of other ideologies like Pan-Slavism) due to admixture of the Greek population with other groups deemed as not 'white-enough'. Just take a look at the racist attacks of the German popular press against the Greek people, in the recent 'crisis' related events, something that other PIIGS countries (how imaginative amd quaint) did not have to deal, to this extent at least.

    Your e-outrage is misplaced and contrived, 'friend'. Angela's posts were spot on and very informative.
    of course racism is not always the same but it is always racism and it doesn't matter against what kind of people. placing people in boxes and hate them for beeing in those boxes? i didn't have "whites" in my mind when i said that btw.

    you know i think it's just funny that you mention the rise of the far right in central europe when there are other places where the far right saw a way bigger rise. i think someone else got hurt feelings because of germans? i don't think it was through racism in popular press though you would have to show me that first.

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