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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here the positions may be found: http://www.yseq.net/images/trees/J1-M267_tree.pdf
    M390 is below J1-L136, sister to J1-P58 and J1-PF7264 (so not in the Eupedia tree in the previous post).
    M367 would be a subgroup of M368, which in turn is just below J1-P58. It's not in the tree above either.
    M369 would be another subgroup of J1-P58. Again, not in the tree.

    The Z643 and Y4067 SNPs above in Eupedia tree would be below J1-CTS9070 according to YSEQ tree, and CTS9070 is still a P58 equivalent in YFull. J1-M368 and J1-M369 would not be directly related to J1-Z643 nor J1-Y4067 as per YSEQ.

    Hope this helps.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Apparently the M367 corresponds to M368: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#J-M368

    Also, some SNPs labeled as J (Notes) must be SNPs used much time ago that are not used anymore. The notes can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1603190133

    Some of them belonged to J1, and could perhaps be informative: M62 (downstream J1-L236), and M390, M367 and M369 (all three below J1-P58).
    I wonder if the study includes STR markers.

    It's actually all about strs. Maybe you can access it through this?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45398-3#Sec2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's actually all about strs. Maybe you can access it through this?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45398-3#Sec2
    I couldn't find it. They say "The Y-STR data of all samples are available on the YHRD database (www.yhrd.org) with accession numbers YA004601."

    https://yhrd.org/YA004601 (Emilia-Romagna - 47 haplotypes)
    https://yhrd.org/YA004602 (Veneto - 25 haplotypes)

    https://yhrd.org/tools/national_database/Italy
    Notice that Veneto and Emilia-Romangna are the only regions with results for "Maximal".

    But I couldn't find the STR results per se.
    Last edited by Regio X; 03-09-19 at 22:20.

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    My friend is predicted J2a1-L25. He is from Bari on his fathers side, and Calabria on the mothers side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Last, what you term "Fascist" salute is essentially the "Roman" salute, and you don't have to be a "Fascist" in order to do it. ... . Although it is true that "Golden Dawn", especially in the early years admired "National Socialism" and even praised Hitler ideologically, but not completely.
    who in their right mind would use this salute in modern times without thinking about the fascists or nazis? why would the partys colours ressemble so much those of the nazi party? and why did a representative of this party talk good about hitler and national socialism rather recently? that it would have been good for the white man if nazis won?


    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    ...and even them despise what is seen in certain far-right groups of Europe, where they term Italians and Greeks as non-Europeans, despite the fact that their autosomal profiles are closer to the ones of the Neolithic Europeans.
    are those nationalists despising all far-right groups who think beeing european has something to do with genetics or only those who think greeks aren't european? calling italians and greeks non europeans is ridiculous just like the reaction of some greeks and italians to this. they then try to argue back with genetic concepts the wrong way. why would you try to argue with a racist by explaining him how genetically "european" your people are? if you yourself believe in this "europeaness" or not doesn't matter at this point, you are to some part getting involved with the arguments of the other side. this way you can't change the others opinion about racism itself. better would be to make clear how non-european everyone in europe actually is. or that genetics just don't matter in this discussion. racism against for example southern europeans from far right groups all over europe also in southern europe itself can't and also should never be seperated from racism against non-europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post


    who in their right mind would use this salute in modern times without thinking about the fascists or nazis? why would the partys colours ressemble so much those of the nazi party? and why did a representative of this party talk good about hitler and national socialism rather recently? that it would have been good for the white man if nazis won?




    are those nationalists despising all far-right groups who think beeing european has something to do with genetics or only those who think greeks aren't european? calling italians and greeks non europeans is ridiculous just like the reaction of some greeks and italians to this. they then try to argue back with genetics. why would you try to argue with a racist by explaining him how genetically "european" your people are? if you yourself believe in this "europeaness" or not doesn't matter at this point, you are to some part getting involved with the arguments of the other side. this way you can't change the others opinion about racism itself. better would be to make clear how non-european everyone in europe actually is. or that genetics just don't matter in this discussion. racism against for example southern europeans from far right groups all over europe also in southern europe itself can't and also should never be seperated from racism against non-europeans.
    This thread is not the place to express your personal opinions on these matters.

    This thread is specifically about the paper in the original post.

    Stop making all these threads about your personal issue with the concept of ethnicity.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 04-09-19 at 19:26.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    This is how the results from a paper can be distorted.

    From another site:

    Vettor/Torzio/Sile

    "There is not a representation of Italian population : E, J2a, G2a are too weak. It is not said it is a representation of Italy or any Italian region. It is only a panel to study the mutation rates of STR mutations. As the Italian laboratories of the study are in Bologna, probably Bologna region is avantaged , but nothing to say if the panel representative of Bologna region."

    First of all, the fact that the results don't conform to your preconceived notions has nothing to do with whether the study is representative or not. Conclusions should flow from the data. Second of all, there was no claim the set was representative of ALL of modern Italy. How could it be, since it comes only from two provinces?

    Whether it's totally representative of those two provinces, I don't know.

    However, here is what Boattini et al had to say about the representativeness of their data set:

    "
    On the whole, our data comprise 47 Y-STRs and 166 Y-SNPs typed in a set of 135 individuals from 66 paternally related namesakes, which, for some markers, were augmented up to 234 individuals and 95 paternal genealogies by including previously published paternally-related individuals from the same geographic area9,28, so as to maximize the accuracy and the representativeness of our dataset.

    Read the papers first, people, then if you think the sample set might not be sufficiently representative, that's fine. I might even agree with withholding from any firm conclusions until a very large representative sample is available.

    Another doozy...

    "
    because bologna is only in the romagna part of the region of emilia romagna , samples came from there along with veneto samples......basically only around the adriatic sea ...........so Ravenna, rimini in the romagna and venice and chioggia in veneto
    Emilia is the western part , north of tuscany and south of Lombardy

    ...........................................

    BTW
    The LT-P326 sample is between 41000 to 49000 years old

    It is generally believed that LT (L298/P326) originated somewhere in West Asia.

    LT is a direct descendant of haplogroup K (M9).

    The direct descendants of LT are haplogroup L (M20), also known as K1a, and haplogroup T (M184), also known as K1b.[2][3]


    I do know that in 2 papers pre 2010 from the italian alps study that haplogroups T and also L where present there."


    There is no supporting evidence for these claims about the sample set. If someone knows precisely where they were taken I would be very interested to hear it. Otherwise, it's baseless speculation. I would also point out that Bologna, IF all the Emilia Romagna samples were taken there, which I don't know, is NOT on the Adriatic. Nor is any evidence provided that the Veneto samples all came from the Adriatic. What's the matter, are they still too "southern" for your supposedly "Nordic" Veneto?



    Just generally, people, stop posting things you're pulling out of a hat. PRESENT THE DATA and the caveats, if necessary, not unsubstantiated musings.
    Last edited by Angela; 04-09-19 at 20:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post


    who in their right mind would use this salute in modern times without thinking about the fascists or nazis? why would the partys colours ressemble so much those of the nazi party? and why did a representative of this party talk good about hitler and national socialism rather recently? that it would have been good for the white man if nazis won?


    are those nationalists despising all far-right groups who think beeing european has something to do with genetics or only those who think greeks aren't european? calling italians and greeks non europeans is ridiculous just like the reaction of some greeks and italians to this. they then try to argue back with genetic concepts the wrong way. why would you try to argue with a racist by explaining him how genetically "european" your people are? if you yourself believe in this "europeaness" or not doesn't matter at this point, you are to some part getting involved with the arguments of the other side. this way you can't change the others opinion about racism itself. better would be to make clear how non-european everyone in europe actually is. or that genetics just don't matter in this discussion. racism against for example southern europeans from far right groups all over europe also in southern europe itself can't and also should never be seperated from racism against non-europeans.
    There is no reason to write the same stuff, i have included everything in my original comment. I agree with @Jovialis, this is not the thread to discuss this. If you want some clarification, send me a PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is how the results from a paper can be distorted.

    From another site:

    Vettor/Torzio/Sile

    "There is not a representation of Italian population : E, J2a, G2a are too weak. It is not said it is a representation of Italy or any Italian region. It is only a panel to study the mutation rates of STR mutations. As the Italian laboratories of the study are in Bologna, probably Bologna region is avantaged , but nothing to say if the panel representative of Bologna region."

    First of all, the fact that the results don't conform to your preconceived notions has nothing to do with whether the study is representative or not. Conclusions should flow from the data. Second of all, there was no claim the set was representative of ALL of modern Italy. How could it be, since it comes only from two provinces?

    Whether it's totally representative of those two provinces, I don't know.

    However, here is what Boattini et al had to say about the representativeness of their data set:

    "
    On the whole, our data comprise 47 Y-STRs and 166 Y-SNPs typed in a set of 135 individuals from 66 paternally related namesakes, which, for some markers, were augmented up to 234 individuals and 95 paternal genealogies by including previously published paternally-related individuals from the same geographic area9,28, so as to maximize the accuracy and the representativeness of our dataset.

    Read the papers first, people, then if you think the sample set might not be sufficiently representative, that's fine. I might even agree with withholding from any firm conclusions until a very large representative sample is available.

    Another doozy...

    "
    because bologna is only in the romagna part of the region of emilia romagna , samples came from there along with veneto samples......basically only around the adriatic sea ...........so Ravenna, rimini in the romagna and venice and chioggia in veneto
    Emilia is the western part , north of tuscany and south of Lombardy

    ...........................................

    BTW
    The LT-P326 sample is between 41000 to 49000 years old

    It is generally believed that LT (L298/P326) originated somewhere in West Asia.

    LT is a direct descendant of haplogroup K (M9).

    The direct descendants of LT are haplogroup L (M20), also known as K1a, and haplogroup T (M184), also known as K1b.[2][3]


    I do know that in 2 papers pre 2010 from the italian alps study that haplogroups T and also L where present there."


    There is no supporting evidence for these claims about the sample set. If someone knows precisely where they were taken I would be very interested to hear it. Otherwise, it's baseless speculation. I would also point out that Bologna, IF all the Emilia Romagna samples were taken there, which I don't know, is NOT on the Adriatic. Nor is any evidence provided that the Veneto samples all came from the Adriatic. What's the matter, are they still too "southern" for your supposedly "Nordic" Veneto?



    Just generally, people, stop posting things you're pulling out of a hat. PRESENT THE DATA and the caveats, if necessary, not unsubstantiated musings.
    your distorting myself with other people , Palamede stated the top half of your quote ............but you can blame me for everything else including the the LT if you like
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_LT
    although I do not write in wiki

    Why do you say nordic, the area around the alps is part of central europe, the alps is neither north or south europe,.............nordic is not part of Italy or the balkans, why do you want it too be?

    do you think nordic is the british isles
    mine below


    I am one of the highest percentage Italians ..........what are your numbers?
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    your distorting myself with other people , Palamede stated the top half of your quote ............but you can blame me for everything else including the the LT if you like
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_LT
    although I do not write in wiki

    Why do you say nordic, the area around the alps is part of central europe, the alps is neither north or south europe,.............nordic is not part of Italy or the balkans, why do you want it too be?

    do you think nordic is the british isles
    mine below


    I am one of the highest percentage Italians ..........what are your numbers?

    Go back and read what I actually WROTE: you pasted it but apparently didn't read it.
    "There is no supporting evidence for these claims about the sample set. "

    Do you see that? The CLAIMS ABOUT THE SAMPLE SET. Do I have to bold and put bells and whistles on all the important phrases?

    I see you don't address my main points, as you never do, because you are devoid of the ability to use logic and don't understand what you read, and drift onto tagents when that has been pointed out once more. You have no proof of where those samples originated yet you categorically pronounce their origin. It's deceptive, as anyone who reads your post but hasn't read the paper might take your word for it.

    Whether that's deliberate or not I don't know, but you do it all the time, and often when it has something to do with the Veneto.

    If "Palamede" wrote the first statement then my caution applies to him as well.

    Spare me the sudden claims of how Italian you are. Last time we discussed this topic, you wouldn't even claim Italian ancestry, and wanted "Alpine" Italy to join with Switzerland and Austria. As if they'd have you, which I also told you at the time.

    What's the matter? Think being a closet nordicist could get you into trouble? Don't worry. Italy's got too many problems to go spying on the opinions of all extreme Lega Nord supporters in the diaspora.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Go back and read what I actually WROTE: you pasted it but apparently didn't read it.
    "There is no supporting evidence for these claims about the sample set. "

    Do you see that? The CLAIMS ABOUT THE SAMPLE SET. Do I have to bold and put bells and whistles on all the important phrases?

    I see you don't address my main points, as you never do, because you are devoid of the ability to use logic and don't understand what you read, and drift onto tagents when that has been pointed out once more. You have no proof of where those samples originated yet you categorically pronounce their origin. It's deceptive, as anyone who reads your post but hasn't read the paper might take your word for it.

    Whether that's deliberate or not I don't know, but you do it all the time, and often when it has something to do with the Veneto.

    If "Palamede" wrote the first statement then my caution applies to him as well.

    Spare me the sudden claims of how Italian you are. Last time we discussed this topic, you wouldn't even claim Italian ancestry, and wanted "Alpine" Italy to join with Switzerland and Austria. As if they'd have you, which I also told you at the time.

    What's the matter? Think being a closet nordicist could get you into trouble? Don't worry. Italy's got too many problems to go spying on the opinions of all extreme Lega Nord supporters in the diaspora.
    All i can say is that i am more italian , 70% as noted above.........my ancestry by BOM records counting only my direct paternal and maternal lines is only from veneto and trentino...from 1450 to ybp1950, either you accept this is italian or accept that
    Italian 1870 to present
    1820 to 1870 austrian
    1797 to 1820 french
    1389 to 1797 venetian......that is my line, you need to clarify to us how you read ethnicity and not confuse people when you change you ideas

    When i get home, i will send a map of my paternal and maternal direct lines....and you will see i am more italian than yourself, i still have dual citizenship, do you ?

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    4 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    This is the same guy who took "Italian" out of his "ethnic" designation, claimed to be an "Alpine European" instead, and espoused the well known extreme Lega Nord position that "Alpine Italy" should join a confederation with Switzerland and Austria.

    Just a note to people: your old posts don't go away. They can be accessed.

    I don't know what game he's playing or if he's gone so far over the edge that he's now delusional, and I don't care, but I don't let lies go unanswered.

    Or is this supposed to be like those prison conversions? Instead of I've repented, I'm now a Christian, it's I'm now an Italian????

    That's it. I'm not wasting any more time on this.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    https://twitter.com/Raveancic/status/1169316526983454720


    Not the moots:

    Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe




    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting, a new Ancient Genetic Component:

    ... We detected the presence of a novel ancient component in Italy, more so in the genomes of modern Southern Italians ...

    https://capelligroup.wordpress.com/a...an-population/

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Messier.

    I just read it. It seems basically the same as the pre-print, so I don't know what "novel" component they're talking about, unless they mean their claim that Iran Neolithic is only in Southern Italy.

    What some geneticists don't seem able to grasp is that their conclusions have to bear some relationship to historical processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Messier.

    I just read it. It seems basically the same as the pre-print, so I don't know what "novel" component they're talking about, unless they mean their claim that Iran Neolithic is only in Southern Italy.

    What some geneticists don't seem able to grasp is that their conclusions have to bear some relationship to historical processes.
    Hannah Moots brought the study to my attention, she retweeted this.

    https://twitter.com/mootspoints

    I think the Moots Stanford paper might be out this month and I am following Moots because I believe she will post her link on twitter when the paper is out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    Hannah Moots brought the study to my attention, she retweeted this.
    https://twitter.com/mootspoints
    I think the Moots Stanford paper might be out this month and I am following Moots because I believe she will post her link on twitter when the paper is out.
    I e-mailed her again. She said her paper won't be out until either later this year, or early 2020.

    I'm eager to check it out, but it is worth the wait.

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    A new open-access paper on Italian genetics, Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe:
    European populations display low genetic differentiation as the result of long-term blending of their ancient founding ancestries. However, it is unclear how the combination of ancient ancestries related to early foragers, Neolithic farmers, and Bronze Age nomadic pastoralists can explain the distribution of genetic variation across Europe. Populations in natural crossroads like the Italian peninsula are expected to recapitulate the continental diversity, but have been systematically understudied. Here, we characterize the ancestry profiles of Italian populations using a genome-wide dataset representative of modern and ancient samples from across Italy, Europe, and the rest of the world. Italian genomes capture several ancient signatures, including a non–steppe contribution derived ultimately from the Caucasus. Differences in ancestry composition, as the result of migration and admixture, have generated in Italy the largest degree of population structure detected so far in the continent, as well as shaping the amount of Neanderthal DNA in modern-day populations.
    My interpretation of what’s in the paper
    – The largest impact on genetic variation across all Italians is “Early European Farmers” who derive from the expansion about of Anatolia. The descendants of Pleistocene hunter-gatherers had a marginal impact and were mostly absorbed.
    – A “steppe” component shows a north-south gradient and seems to have arrived in the 3rd millennium. It’s almost absent in Sardinia. It is a minority component, but I believe it brought Indo-European languages to the Italian peninsula.
    – Looking at the Tuscan results (more affinity with northern than southern Italy), it seems to me that the genetic impact of West Asians leading to the emergence of Etruscans is now no longer quite so viable. We’ll see. But the demographic impact of the steppe people seems to have been lesser in the Southern European peninsulas than in Northern Europe. Basque survived into the modern period in Spain. Paleo-Sardinian, which persisted into Classical times, was probably not Indo-European. And the ancient languages of Crete seem to have been non-Indo-European. It seems entirely plausible that Etruscan then was a pre-Indo-European survival, though the relationship to Lemnian is still there.
    – Southern Italy and Sicily is interesting because of the strong West Asian (“Caucasus”) imprint. A 2017 paper on ancient Mycenaean and Minoan genomes showed evidence of gene-flow from the same area, likely during the Copper or Bronze Age. This could be part of the same migration. Or, it could be part of the legacy of Magna Graecia, the colonization of the region by Greeks during antiquity. Or, it could be due to Roman and later admixtures and migrations.
    – The evidence of North African ancestry in Sicily is due probably to the settlements during the two centuries of Islam rule, when Sicily was in many ways part of greater North Africa
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...ian-peninsula/
    Here is Razib Khan's take on the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    The Copper Age Anatolian sample now shows up on the map in the Neolithic. I0184 looks like it comes from North-Western Anatolia, in 3800 BC:



    I believe this is what links me to a lot of the other samples from later time periods; via other groups who share the Copper Age Anatolians as a source population:



    As for the deep dive, all I get is 0.67 cM for the Mycenaean sample, I9033:



    Here is the full-archaeology map, with some new additions:

    This is a more recent post, but I've been saying for the past year now that the copper age Anatolians that migrated to the Aegean, also may have settled around that time in Italy. Which would have been before the colonization by the Greeks. I'm happy to see that Razib Khan has comparable musings on the subject, as I do.

    – Southern Italy and Sicily is interesting because of the strong West Asian (“Caucasus”) imprint. A 2017 paper on ancient Mycenaean and Minoan genomes showed evidence of gene-flow from the same area, likely during the Copper or Bronze Age. This could be part of the same migration. Or, it could be part of the legacy of Magna Graecia, the colonization of the region by Greeks during antiquity. Or, it could be due to Roman and later admixtures and migrations.
    – The evidence of North African ancestry in Sicily is due probably to the settlements during the two centuries of Islam rule, when Sicily was in many ways part of greater North Africa
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...ian-peninsula/

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    By the Late Republic, if the Italics from the steppe did mix with the Aegean-like populations in Southern Italy; figures C and F sort of look like Italia during that time.



    Moreover, my K36 heat map sort of looks like a silhouette of the Roman empire.


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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is Razib Khan's take on the paper.
    Razib Khan proves once again to be the most accurate and honest on Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Razib Khan proves once again to be the most accurate and honest on Italians.
    I totally agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    @Angela But Etruscans were very sophisticated / advanced people and had considerable influence on Romans. I mean from their perspective you can understand why would they want Italians to have more Arab ancestry, so that they could call them non-European/white etc. But why would these Nord-Eastern supremacists would like Etruscans to be Near Eastern? Isn't Etruscans being closer to the steppe better for their ideology? Then in their mind they can claim Romans' successes too.

    On Razib Khan, he used to write on Unz along with Jared Taylor etc. I think he is Republican too. I find it a little weird, i don't think most republicans would have positive views about South Asians, even though they are the richest/most educated group in US. Maybe he thinks deeper than me, i don't know.
    South Asians, and you can probably include East Asians are very wealthy in USA because that country has attracted the brightest and richest people to immigrate. If history worked out differently and India or China had different immigration rules or began booming a century or more ago, you would find the brightest and wealthiest white folks move to those countries (if possible). Although racism and ethnocentrism is alive and well in both countries, so it would never happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    In this admixture chart on line 550, it shows that the Ibiza_Phoenician sample's autosomal components looks very close to that of the Mycenaean. Let us see how things pan out in the final peer-reviewed version of the paper.

    Here's another aspect of the paper I found to be intriguing:



    The Reich paper states that it is plausible that the Caucasus-related ancestry reported in Ravenae et al is likely to have been there since the early or middle Bronze-Age. Thus it stands to reason that this makes Southern Italian mainlanders; especially SItaly3 (see figure G, below) are indeed different from Sicilians. But who knows how Reich would model them. This is just my observations and speculation. At any rate, here are examples of the difference, below. If the plausibility is indeed correct, than the mainland south owes a lot of it's ancestry to the early to middle bronze age. While Sicily took a different route to get where it is today (Perhaps with Messina being an exception).



    Furthermore, I noticed that Anatolian_BA is also very similar to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples; More than it is to Levant_BA, as observed in the ADMIXTURE analysis below. One of the samples even overlaps with SItaly1



    Here's the one I was thinking of.

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