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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

  1. #751
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    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very true, Brick. That's why not only should the samples be chosen honestly, they should also be chosen with professionalism and a knowledge of the "ethnic" context.

    It's inexcusable to include Croatians and Germans, and to think you can capture the variation of any Italian province with one sample. What makes it worse is that these are Italians.

    Why Davidski didn't include Emilia Romagna in what he released I have no idea. If the authors didn't want to release them then likewise I don't get it. Did they use substandard samples?

    You can't test the work of another group unless you have access to all the samples. How is anyone supposed to try to replicate their analysis?
    Not even a sample was release from Piedmont.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The "hole" is not between central and northern Italy but between Northern Italy and Toscana, and it doesn't exist in reality. Emilia Romagna would undoubtedly fill that space, as it does on PCAs based on complete sets of samples. Btw, Toscana is not Central Italy.

    Western Liguria, from which the Ligurian sample probably comes given where it plots, is more "northern" than eastern Liguria, but you wouldn't know it by using one sample. There is also a lot of variation within Emilia Romagna, especially west versus east.
    Well said, Angela.
    In the past few days Pax had the patience to rework the PCA, including my data, and I fall exactly into the "ghost" cluster, a little dispersed from the others.


    Beata solitudo, sola beatitudo :)

    _________________

    (without eigenvalue scale)




    (with eigenvalue scale)

    Last edited by Stuvanè; 08-09-19 at 16:17. Reason: updating PCA maps

  3. #753
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela, and Brick:

    Here are some of the samples from the study, along with the Sample ID. I took it from the supplement material, in the study. It is in the first excel sheet, in Data File S1 on the cluster composition tabs

    SCItaly1 ITC-ABR_G Alp090
    SCItaly1 ITC-ABR_G Alp140
    SCItaly1 ITC-ABR_G ALP161
    SCItaly1 ITC-ABR_G Alp162
    SItaly3 ITC-ABR_G ALP205
    SCItaly1 ITC-ABR_G Alp380
    SItaly3 ITC-ABR_G Alp503
    SCItaly1 ITC-ABR_G Alp616
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id004
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id019
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id022
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id056
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id066
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id083
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id100
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id113
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id118
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id146
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id185
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id188
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id189
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id209
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id215
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id216
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id223
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id225
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id230
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id236
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id251
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id257
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id262
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id273
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id274
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id278
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id288
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G id300
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G NOR24
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G NOR28
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G PG28
    SCItaly1 ITC-LAZ_G PG30
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABG010D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABI020D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABN020D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABP050D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABQ080D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABU050D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarABY030D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACM040D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACO060D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACO100D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACV100D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACW030D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACW080D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarACY030D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarADC050D
    SCItaly1 ITC-MAR_G MarADG030D
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id018
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id031
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id065
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id068
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id074
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id086
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id091
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id117
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id122
    NCItaly3 ITC-TSI_G id136
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id169
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id177
    EXCLUDED ITC-TSI_G id183
    NCItaly3 ITC-TSI_G id213
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id239
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id240
    NCItaly3 ITC-TSI_G id283
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id286
    SCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G id296
    NCItaly3 ITC-TSI_G MURLO114
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20502
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20503
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20504
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20505
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20506
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20507
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20508
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20509
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20510
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20512
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20513
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20514
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20515
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20516
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20517
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20518
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20519
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20520
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20521
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20522
    NItaly3 ITC-TSI_G NA20524
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20525
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20527
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20528
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20529
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20530
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20531
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20532
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20533
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20534
    NItaly3 ITC-TSI_G NA20535
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20536
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20537
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20538
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20539
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20540
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20541
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20542
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20543
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20544
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20581
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20582
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20585
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20586
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20588
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20589
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20752
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20753
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20754
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20755
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20756
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20757
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20758
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20759
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20761
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20765
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20766
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20768
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20769
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20770
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20771
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20772
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20773
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20774
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20775
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20778
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20783
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20785
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20786
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20787
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20790
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20792
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20795
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20796
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20797
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20798
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20799
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20800
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20801
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20802
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20803
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20804
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20805
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20806
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20807
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20808
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20809
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20810
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20811
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20812
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20813
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20814
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20815
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20816
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20818
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20819
    NCItaly2 ITC-TSI_G NA20826
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G NA20828
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G VO59
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G VO65
    NCItaly1 ITC-TSI_G VO109
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG03
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG04
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG05
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG06
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG07
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG08
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG11
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG12
    SCItaly1 ITC-UMB_G PG15
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id008
    NCItaly1 ITN-EMI_G id029
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id030
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id034
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id042
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id048
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id057
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id059
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id067
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id078
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id079
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id082
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id084
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id092
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id101
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id103
    NCItaly1 ITN-EMI_G id116
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id124
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id162
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id172
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id178
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id180
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id191
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id224
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id229
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id238
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id245
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id260
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id291
    NItaly3 ITN-EMI_G id295
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP081
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP093
    EEurope1 ITN-FRI_G ALP188
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP220
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP233
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP235
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP280
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP346
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP354
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP435
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G ALP506
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G KF1800761
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G KF1803129
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G KF2700922
    NItaly6 ITN-FRI_G KF2700960
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G ALP099
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id027
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id035
    NItaly4 ITN-LIG_G id041
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id045
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id047
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id060
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id062
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id063
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id089
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id093
    EXCLUDED ITN-LIG_G id105
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id119
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id126
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id132
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id138
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id141
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id153
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id158
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id187
    NItaly6 ITN-LIG_G id200
    NItaly6 ITN-LIG_G id204
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id250
    NItaly3 ITN-LIG_G id290
    SCItaly1 ITN-LIG_G id292
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G ALP288
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G BGD28
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G BGD31
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G BGD103
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G BGD301
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id002
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id013
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id040
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id046
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id050
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id055
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id080
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id081
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id090
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id104
    EXCLUDED ITN-LOM_G id106
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id121
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id123
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id145
    EXCLUDED ITN-LOM_G id147
    EXCLUDED ITN-LOM_G id148
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id149
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id154
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id181
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id192
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id201
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id202
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id205
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id219
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id221
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id222
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id233
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id241
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id243
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id246
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id252
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id265
    NItaly4 ITN-LOM_G id267
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id294
    NItaly3 ITN-LOM_G id298
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id007
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id010
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id011
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id015
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id016
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id049
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id069
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id088
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id097
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id098
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id099
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id129
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id137
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id150
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id163
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id207
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id212
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id217
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id218
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id227
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id244
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id247
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id255
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id259
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id264
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id272
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id281
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id282
    NItaly3 ITN-PIE_G id289
    NItaly6 ITN-TRE_G ALP070
    NItaly6 ITN-TRE_G ALP071
    NItaly3 ITN-TRE_G ALP114
    NItaly6 ITN-TRE_G ALP200
    NItaly6 ITN-TRE_G ALP259
    EXCLUDED ITN-TRE_G ALP395
    EEurope1 ITN-TRE_G ALP414
    NItaly6 ITN-TRE_G ALP420
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G ALP225
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G ALP227
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id028
    EXCLUDED ITN-VDA_G id039
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id044
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id071
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id073
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id077
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id096
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id110
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id112
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id114
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id128
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id159
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id160
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id164
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id171
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id176
    EXCLUDED ITN-VDA_G id182
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id184
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id186
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id193
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id196
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id198
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id210
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id214
    EXCLUDED ITN-VDA_G id220
    NItaly1 ITN-VDA_G id234
    NItaly3 ITN-VDA_G id242
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP022
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP040
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G Alp100
    NItaly3 ITN-VEN_G ALP116
    NItaly3 ITN-VEN_G ALP209
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP249
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP250
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP273
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP322
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G ALP378
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G Alp401
    NItaly3 ITN-VEN_G KF1800751
    NItaly3 ITN-VEN_G KF1800772
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G KF1803105
    NItaly3 ITN-VEN_G KF1803109
    NItaly6 ITN-VEN_G KF1803151
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id005
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id009
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id017
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id026
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id038
    SItaly2 ITS-BAS_G id043
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id053
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id072
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id075
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id102
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id107
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id111
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id115
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id127
    SItaly2 ITS-BAS_G id152
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id155
    SItaly2 ITS-BAS_G id156
    SItaly1 ITS-BAS_G id167
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id170
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id179
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id194
    SItaly2 ITS-BAS_G id211
    EXCLUDED ITS-BAS_G id226
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id248
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id258
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id263
    SItaly2 ITS-BAS_G id271
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G id297
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG16
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG17
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG18
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG19
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG20
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG21
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG22
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG24
    SItaly3 ITS-BAS_G PG25
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G ALP582
    SItaly3 ITS-CAL_G ALP596
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id014
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id020
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id032
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id054
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id061
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id094
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id139
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id157
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id174
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id253
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id266
    SItaly1 ITS-CAL_G id280
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN43TC
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN46TC
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN58AC
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN65DFG
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN77FAM
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN119AMR
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN128LA
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN195ST
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN207MM
    SCItaly1 ITS-CAM_G NaN212CR
    SCItaly1 ITS-CAM_G NaN238DM
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN275IS
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN289RM
    SItaly3 ITS-CAM_G NaN293SF
    SItaly3 ITS-MOL_G PG26
    SCItaly1 ITS-MOL_G PG27
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G ALP379
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G ALP583
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G cera1
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G cera2
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G cera8
    SCItaly1 ITS-PUG_G cera9
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G GS32
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G GS34
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G GS47
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G Pu2
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G Pu3
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G Pu7
    SItaly1 ITS-PUG_G Pu8
    SItaly3 ITS-PUG_G Pu45
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id001
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id003
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id006
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id021
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id024
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id037
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id051
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id058
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id085
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id108
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id109
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id120
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id130
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id134
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id135
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id161
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id165
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id173
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id175
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id195
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id197
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id228
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id235
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id256
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id269
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id276
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id277
    Sardinia3 ITS-SAR_G id279
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id284
    Sardinia1 ITS-SAR_G id287
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id012
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id023
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id025
    Sicily2 ITS-SIC_G id033
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id052
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id064
    Sicily2 ITS-SIC_G id070
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id076
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id087
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id095
    EXCLUDED ITS-SIC_G id125
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id131
    SItaly3 ITS-SIC_G id140
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id142
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id143
    Sicily2 ITS-SIC_G id144
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id166
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id168
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id190
    SItaly3 ITS-SIC_G id199
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id203
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id206
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id208
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id231
    Sicily2 ITS-SIC_G id232
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id249
    SItaly3 ITS-SIC_G id254
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id268
    SItaly1 ITS-SIC_G id270
    Sicily1 ITS-SIC_G id275
    SItaly3 ITS-SIC_G id293



  4. #754
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    FYI

    The SBA like ancestry in this study is mostly associated with Finnish-like ancestry. That is want they mean by NEurope 1

    NEurope1 Finnish HG00171
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00173
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00174
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00176
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00177
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00178
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00179
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00180
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00181
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00182
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00183
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00185
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00186
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00187
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00188
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00189
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00190
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00266
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00267
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00268
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00269
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00270
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00271
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00272
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00273
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00274
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00275
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00276
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00277
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00278
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00280
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00281
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00282
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00284
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00285
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00306
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00308
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00309
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00310
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00311
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00312
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00313
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00315
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00318
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00319
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00320
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00321
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00323
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00324
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00325
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00326
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00327
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00328
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00329
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00330
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00331
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00332
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00334
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00335
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00336
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00337
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00338
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00339
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00341
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00342
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00343
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00344
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00345
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00346
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00349
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00350
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00351
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00353
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00355
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00356
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00357
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00358
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00359
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00360
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00361
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00362
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00364
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00365
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00366
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00367
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00368
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00369
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00371
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00372
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00373
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00375
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00376
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00377
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00378
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00379
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00380
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00381
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00382
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00383
    NEurope1 Finnish HG00384



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    To make a broad generalization according to this study, you can say everyone in Europe is just on a gradient of being Finnish-like (SBA), Sardinian-like (EEF), Apulian-Like (ABA), with WHG as a minority component. Because that’s what is inferred by using these types of components.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Some comments on samples from Aosta Valley:

    This study has only two samples from Aosta. There was a study a few years ago with over 20 samples from Aosta.

    I compared these two new Aostans to those 20 Aosta samples, from the old study which I have also downloaded.

    And here is what I see:

    ALP225 - this sample is just like Aostans from the old study, a little bit more Piedmont-like
    ALP227 - this sample is almost certainly a German-speaking Aostan (Walser minority)

    The second sample is much more northern-shifted, similar to Saarland and Swiss Germans.

    =====

    PS:

    A bit disappointed that some regions are not represented or represented by very few samples.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ​Two more outliers:

    ALP188
    from Friuli and ALP414 from Trentino have at least partially Slavic ancestry (probably Slovene or Carinthian Slovene).

    Is there a Slavic-speaking minority in Friuli and/or in Trentino?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ​Two more outliers:

    ALP188
    from Friuli and ALP414 from Trentino have at least partially Slavic ancestry (probably Slovene or Carinthian Slovene).

    Is there a Slavic-speaking minority in Friuli and/or in Trentino?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana

    and

    East Tyrol has about 10% slavic

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Tyrol
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, in Friuli we have Resian and Slovenian minorities, plus the plains were heavy repopulated after hungarian and turkish raids and differents plagues which hitted the area between medieval age and renaissance with people from Balkans, mostly slavic speaking. So there are both slavic speaking minority and an important slavic component in the development of Friulian "ethnicity" (attested also by a great deal of slavic loanwords and toponyms). Besides the two major towns in eastern Friuli region (Gorizia and Trieste) received a not irrelevant influx of settlers from all the former Austro-Hungarian Empire till the annexation of this area to Italy (since you are a Pole I can make you the example of my chemistry teacher in high school whose family came to my hometown from the polish speaking area in the XIX century).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    Yes, in Friuli we have Resian and Slovenian minorities, plus the plains were heavy repopulated after hungarian and turkish raids and differents plagues which hitted the area between medieval age and renaissance with people from Balkans, mostly slavic speaking. So there are both slavic speaking minority and an important slavic component in the development of Friulian "ethnicity" (attested also by a great deal of slavic loanwords and toponyms). Besides the two major towns in eastern Friuli region (Gorizia and Trieste) received a not irrelevant influx of settlers from all the former Austro-Hungarian Empire till the annexation of this area to Italy (since you are a Pole I can make you the example of my chemistry teacher in high school whose family came to my hometown from the polish speaking area in the XIX century).
    There is this guy with ancestry from Trieste, with whom I would form a new Y branch based on STR markers. Indeed, he has an "Italian" family name, but it's derived from a Slovenian one, ended by "vitz". There must be many similar cases in there.

    Also, I know abt. a man from Udine province (close to Gemona del Friuli, more specifically) who scores almost 50% of East Europe in myOrigins, in line with what you said. I myself score 10%, then I assume he would score in 23andMe less than those 50%. Still...
    It must be linked with all those R1a-s in Udine province. (Out of curiosity, according to a 23andMe match, this seems to be the line of my mother-in-law's father, whose father was born precisely in Udine-UD.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    There is this guy with ancestry from Trieste, with whom I would form a new Y branch based on STR markers. Indeed, he has an "Italian" family name, but it's derived from a Slovenian one, ended by "vitz". There must be many similar cases in there.

    Also, I know abt. a man from Udine province (close to Gemona del Friuli, more specifically) who scores almost 50% of East Europe in myOrigins, in line with what you said. I myself score 10%, then I assume he would score in 23andMe less than those 50%. Still...
    It must be linked with all those R1a-s in Udine province. (Out of curiosity, according to a 23andMe match, this seems to be the line of my mother-in-law's father, whose father was born precisely in Udine-UD.)
    Not all R1a are in friuli, my wife line is from the north of livenza river to san stino di livenza in the south, province of venice


    Btw....plwase send me privately the link to check our relatives as i lost it when my old pc died in early august

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    Mr. torzio, maybe you don't know that the historical border between Venetians and Friulians is exactly the Livenza river (old people in Portogruaro area still speak a venetianized version of Friulian). In a more general point of view I think that as for all the Y haplogroups there can be a lot of different explanations for the presence of a specific line in a specific area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    Mr. torzio, maybe you don't know that the historical border between Venetians and Friulians is exactly the Livenza river (old people in Portogruaro area still speak a venetianized version of Friulian). In a more general point of view I think that as for all the Y haplogroups there can be a lot of different explanations for the presence of a specific line in a specific area.
    Thank you......i know what people speak, i was in veneto , ponzano a few years ago to see my first cousins and went to porcia near pordenone to see some 2nd cousins.... the area only speaks venet and does not know furlan.....thats what i found being there 3 weeks
    Livenza river is the border of veneto and friuli and my wife is from motta and they know zero furlan even though its a border town

    I was trying to say that R1a is not only slav as it was already in alps, balkans , germany etc before any slavs got there

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    I’ve seen around East_Med related discussions about the V2 K15 results of Pugliesi (and other Regions).

    Generally, they're not very different from mine, until they reach the Red_Sea. After that, they start to vary with each other.

    fwiw my results from that point down:



    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....689#post599689

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I get 29.86 Pct,

    It is a meaningless construct that subsumes disparate groups with different source populations, that do not apply to one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Not all R1a are in friuli, my wife line is from the north of livenza river to san stino di livenza in the south, province of venice
    Btw....plwase send me privately the link to check our relatives as i lost it when my old pc died in early august
    Yes, I know R1a can be found in other places, but while it's relatively common in Friuli and particularly Udine, it's uncommon elsewhere, even in Treviso.

    I don't know what the link is. Please send me a PM with more details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I get 29.86 Pct,

    It is a meaningless construct that subsumes disparate groups with different source populations, that do not apply to one another.
    I had the same impression.

    You said it so well, I couldn't have said it like that even if I wanted to :)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I had the same impression.

    You said it so well, I couldn't have said it like that even if I wanted to :)


    My single population sharing distance of K15 vs the autosomal components assigned in the paper, to those populations.

    As you can see there are some differences, thus I think "Eastern Mediterranean" is not a sufficient construct to go by. Rather, it is better to go by the ancient samples. In this case, modeled with ABA, which largely accounts for the overlap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    My single population sharing distance of K15 vs the autosomal components assigned in the paper, to those populations.

    As you can see there are some differences, thus I think "Eastern Mediterranean" is not a sufficient construct to go by. Rather, it is better to go by the ancient samples. In this case, modeled with ABA, which largely accounts for the overlap.
    The Ashkenazi Jews probably get a great deal of their North African-like component from ancient times. For example, the brown Natufian component here. This further illustrates the disparity between the cohort of populations in "Eastern Mediterranean":


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    Taking a look at East-Med's proximity to Palestine, and seeing the great-genetic diversity within that in the academic chart; Idk how it can serve as a measure for much.

    I always looked at those components within GEDmatch calculators as arbitrary. I find it interesting to look at how samples fall in relation to one another on the PCA. But I defer to academic papers for what they're made of. That's also why consumer genomic testing percentages should be taken with a grain of salt as well; they're not academic.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    "Components" based on modern populations are bound to be faulty. Once we had no choice. Now we do.

    It's extremely foolhardy to attach these labels to any actual migration of people and try to put a date on it.

    Dienekes realized that years and years ago, but you'd never know it from the way some internet "experts" use these calculators.

    See:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html

    We've learned a lot since then. There are even more layers. Like I said: you'd never know that from some of the commentary.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    My single population sharing distance of K15 vs the autosomal components assigned in the paper, to those populations.

    As you can see there are some differences, thus I think "Eastern Mediterranean" is not a sufficient construct to go by. Rather, it is better to go by the ancient samples. In this case, modeled with ABA, which largely accounts for the overlap.
    A while ago, I noticed that SItaly3 (us, Puglia), has 2 less component than the other neighbors (no NAfrica1 and no EEN).

    ... my PCA:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post580199

    ... EDIT:



    WHG = Western Hunter-Gatherer
    EEN = European Early Neolithic
    SBA = Bronze Age from steppe
    ABA = Bronze Age from Anatolia
    Last edited by Salento; 13-09-19 at 14:59. Reason: SItaly3 = No pink, No yellow

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    A while ago, I noticed that SItaly3 (us, Puglia), has 2 less component than the other neighbors (no NAfrica1 and no EEN).

    ... my PCA:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post580199

    ... EDIT:



    WHG = Western Hunter-Gatherer
    EEN = European Early Neolithic
    SBA = Bronze Age from steppe
    ABA = Bronze Age from Anatolia
    All in all, these are also constructs that have a lot of overlap too:

    Antaolian Copper age/ Bronze age is basically Anatolain_N + CHG. There's overlaps with the EEN with Anatolain_N. SBA is a mix of EHG and CHG, so there's overlap there. Then there's also a bit Anatolian_N there too, especially by the MLBA.





    Nevertheless, these constructs are based on ancient DNA, and have an archaeological basis to exist in reality.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    All in all, these are also constructs that have a lot of overlap too:

    Antaolian Copper age/ Bronze age is basically Anatolain_N + CHG. There's overlaps with the EEN with Anatolain_N. SBA is a mix of EHG and CHG, so there's overlap there. Then there's also a bit Anatolian_N there too, especially by the MLBA.





    Nevertheless, these constructs are based on ancient DNA, and have an archaeological basis to exist in reality.
    Moreover, I take Angela's point in regards to the Iran Neo. It is probably from ABA, as it can be modeled that way in the study. CHG and Iran Neo are very similar; as the Post-Roman Egypt paper admixture chart shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    The strange thing is their finding of "Iran Neolithic" in the south.If they are correct, we need ancient dna to understand it. The farmers of Iran didn't fly over all the territory in between to land in Southern Italy at some late date. Nor, I would suggest, did undiluted Iranian farmer ancestry still exist in the Roman Era. Everything indicates to me that it started to spread during the Copper Age, mixing with, in West Asia, earlier farmer ancestry. Likewise, Anatolian type farmer ancestry moved to the lands of the Iranian farmers.
    Also, when looking at the study this way, you can see that the only place that was really impacted by NAfrica1 was in Sicily, and parts of Iberia; albeit a marginal degree.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Moreover, I take Angela's point in regards to the Iran Neo. It is probably from ABA, as it can be modeled that way in the study. CHG and Iran Neo are very similar; as the Post-Roman Egypt paper admixture chart shows.



    Also, when looking at the study this way, you can see that the only place that was really impacted by NAfrica1 was in Sicily, and parts of Iberia; albeit a marginal degree.

    Tomorrow it will be one year since this pre-print came out. I will be looking forward to seeing it published. Keeping with my point above, you can model these populations like below as well. The Dzudzuana population were Paleo-Caucasians, that were very similar to Anatolian Neolithic; who make up the majority of autosomal DNA in West Eurasia.



    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...23079.full.pdf

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