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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    how exactly did the greeks influence the tyrsennians, as they called them ?



    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
    Perhaps you're new at this, so...

    Let's look at generalities...

    "Western Asia and the Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC. Cultures in the ancient Near East (often called one of "the cradles of civilization") practiced intensive year-round agriculture, developed a writing system, invented the potter's wheel, created a centralized government, written law codes, city and nation states and empires, embarked on advanced architectural projects, introduced social stratification, economic and civil administration, slavery, and practiced organized warfare, medicine and religion. Societies in the region laid the foundations for astronomy, mathematics and astrology."

    All of this was transmitted to the Etruscans either through the Greeks or more directly through trade with the Phoenicians. The alphabet, which they then passed on to the Latin speaking Romans, and thence to the rest of Europe, is a good example.

    You can find some information in this google book, although as always it's irritating because just as you get to the "good" parts, there are pages missing. You can see, though, the change in architecture, for example, not only for megastructures, but in house design.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=HA...uscans&f=false

    They went a long way very quickly from mud and wattle circular huts to this:



    I'd buy it tomorrow. :)



    Then, of course, particularly in pottery and the arts,there's what is called the "Orientalizing period". You can look it up on Wiki.

    The fact that there is such a quick change from a rather primitive culture to a very sophisticated one is why some people found it hard to credit that this was an autochthonous Italian culture. If the leaks are correct that is precisely the case, however, which makes their achievements even more remarkable.

    It has to also be said that although they did a lot of borrowing, unlike some cultures they did a lot of innovation as well, making those "borrowings" very much their own. One example from the social sphere involves their borrowing the "symposia" form of feasting, eating, in company while reclining.

    Whereas in the east it was limited to men, in Etruscan society women were part of the social gatherings, leading to the Greek calumny about them that their women were all prostitutes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    …………..)
    Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.
    It happens to me as well. I get locked out, but later the password will work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Kind of off topic. I had to change my password 4 times today. Additionally, I made sure they would be entered correctly. Each time locking me out automatically for incorrect entry which is beyond false. This is now my 4th password change in a day.
    I have to change at random intervals of 1 minute - 1 hour .... the forum account. This has been happening continuously for about a month now ... Why? God knows ... and his angels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps you're new at this, so...

    Let's look at generalities...

    "Western Asia and the Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC. Cultures in the ancient Near East (often called one of "the cradles of civilization") practiced intensive year-round agriculture, developed a writing system, invented the potter's wheel, created a centralized government, written law codes, city and nation states and empires, embarked on advanced architectural projects, introduced social stratification, economic and civil administration, slavery, and practiced organized warfare, medicine and religion. Societies in the region laid the foundations for astronomy, mathematics and astrology."

    All of this was transmitted to the Etruscans either through the Greeks or more directly through trade with the Phoenicians. The alphabet, which they then passed on to the Latin speaking Romans, and thence to the rest of Europe, is a good example.

    You can find some information in this google book, although as always it's irritating because just as you get to the "good" parts, there are pages missing. You can see, though, the change in architecture, for example, not only for megastructures, but in house design.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=HA...uscans&f=false

    They went a long way very quickly from mud and wattle circular huts to this:



    I'd buy it tomorrow. :)



    Then, of course, particularly in pottery and the arts,there's what is called the "Orientalizing period". You can look it up on Wiki.

    The fact that there is such a quick change from a rather primitive culture to a very sophisticated one is why some people found it hard to credit that this was an autochthonous Italian culture. If the leaks are correct that is precisely the case, however, which makes their achievements even more remarkable.

    It has to also be said that although they did a lot of borrowing, unlike some cultures they did a lot of innovation as well, making those "borrowings" very much their own. One example from the social sphere involves their borrowing the "symposia" form of feasting, eating, in company while reclining.

    Whereas in the east it was limited to men, in Etruscan society women were part of the social gatherings, leading to the Greek calumny about them that their women were all prostitutes.
    thankyou, quality info.

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    By the Late Republic, if the Italics from the steppe did mix with the Aegean-like populations in Southern Italy; figures C and F sort of look like Italia during that time.



    Moreover, my K36 heat map sort of looks like a silhouette of the Roman empire.

    Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies during the Imperial era:



    https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire
    Last edited by Jovialis; 02-10-19 at 21:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I() View Post
    I have to change at random intervals of 1 minute - 1 hour .... the forum account. This has been happening continuously for about a month now ... Why? God knows ... and his angels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It happens to me as well. I get locked out, but later the password will work.
    Yup. 2 times again today. Quite annoying lol.

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    Screen Shot 2019-08-04 at 6.58.49 PM.jpgYour heat map look like Roman Empire, wonder what mine looks like...uhh, Empire of the Franks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies around the beginning of the Imperial era:



    https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire
    Nice find, Jovialis.

    I'd forgotten about all those colonies along the Dalmatian coast and is it part of Albania as well?

    I have quite a few friends from that part of Croatia (the islands too). Between the two world wars they were part of "us" again. They all speak some Italian, and wholeheartedly adopted the cuisine. Actually, parts of it they'd always had, I think. A lot of Northern Italian restaurants in New York are actually owned by Croatians. They go by their Italian first names to seem more "authentic". :)

    Fine by me. Two of my uncles (and one aunt) had restaurants, highly successful ones too, and none of their children wanted to continue them. The restaurant "life" is a really difficult one. If the Croatians are willing to do it, more power to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nice find, Jovialis.

    I'd forgotten about all those colonies along the Dalmatian coast and is it part of Albania as well?

    I have quite a few friends from that part of Croatia (the islands too). Between the two world wars they were part of "us" again. They all speak some Italian, and wholeheartedly adopted the cuisine. Actually, parts of it they'd always had, I think. A lot of Northern Italian restaurants in New York are actually owned by Croatians. They go by their Italian first names to seem more "authentic". :)

    Fine by me. Two of my uncles (and one aunt) had restaurants, highly successful ones too, and none of their children wanted to continue them. The restaurant "life" is a really difficult one. If the Croatians are willing to do it, more power to them.

    Indeed it is, my friend's wife's family are Albanians, and her cousins can speak Italian fluently. Moreover, they have lived in Italy prior to coming to the USA. I also knew a Croatian girl, from one of the Islands near Venice, she was also fluent in Italian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Map of Caesarian and Augustan Roman colonies during the Imperial era:



    https://www.britannica.com/place/Roman-Empire
    Nice discovery Jovialis :)

    I'm not Italian, but an Iberian descendant. In many autosomal calculators I have a great overlapping with Northern Italia, for example, Eurogenes K36 and LM Genetics, among others:

    LM Genetics:



    Eurogenes - nMonte3 Oracle Results - YourPortalDNA

    Eurogenes K36
    Europe : 99%
    West Asia: 0.8 %
    Sub-Saharan Africa: 0.2%
    TOTAL: 100%:




    Interesting that my map from ancient times of MyTrueAncestry - MTA reminds much this map of Roman Empire that shows roman the colonies on the begining of Imperial era, except, in my specific case, the Greece, Anatolia and Sicily, and It can explain, I think, the matches that appears for Italins and Iberians in MTA to samples of ancient Illyrians:




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    ^what are the red lines showing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    ^what are the red lines showing?
    It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

    Which can be seen in the modeling:


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    I am very curious to know the Y-DNA of more Etruscan samples. Was that J2b2-L283 an outlier or it was a common Y-DNA among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

    Which can be seen in the modeling:

    i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.
    Wouldn't there be some Uralic Sammi type stuff there too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It just outlines the continuum between SBA, ABA, AN, and along with the resurgence of WHG, to form the modern Italian populations, as well as the others within it.

    Which can be seen in the modeling:

    I'm confused by this graph. Which color is WHG? And why do North Africa and East Africa look so similar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.
    Correct, it wasn't distributed directly from those sources. For example some ABA-like admixture could have come via greek settlement. Some Steppe could have come via central europe, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I'm confused by this graph. Which color is WHG? And why do North Africa and East Africa look so similar?
    That's from a lack of appropriate sample for those populations, no SSA. North African is the closest to them

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    WHG is red:

    Last edited by Jovialis; 26-06-20 at 02:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i see. it's not very accurate though if we just use those 4 as direct sources for modern europeans.
    However, it is interesting that samples like R850, clusters with Anatolian_ChL. I speculate ABA-like people likely existed in Italy, perhaps further south during the Bronze-Age, and certainly among the Antonio et al 2019 samples in the Iron Age. Though maybe it came through a slow process of Iran-like admixture arriving since the Neolithic. Perhaps partly related to the migration of Iran-like admixture that augmented Antolian_N-like populations which gave rise to the Minoans, and Mycenaean; but traveled further west to Italy.

    I also speculate that the Italic tribes are similar to samples like R1, and mixed with samples like R850, chiefly contributing to the North-South cline in Italy. But was a process that began prior:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    However, it is interesting that samples like R850, clusters with Anatolian_ChL. I speculate ABA-like people likely existed in Italy, perhaps further south during the Bronze-Age, and certainly among the Antonio et al 2019 samples in the Iron Age. Though maybe it came through a slow process of Iran-like admixture arriving since the Neolithic. Perhaps partly related to the migration of Iran-like admixture that augmented Antolian_N-like populations which gave rise to the Minoans, and Mycenaean; but traveled further west to Italy.

    I also speculate that the Italic tribes are similar to samples like R1, and mixed with samples like R850, chiefly contributing to the North-South cline in Italy. But was a process that began prior:

    if we assume those 4 were the only source populations and that south italians were minoan like then only a big migration of ABA like ancestry to south italy that replaced 50+% of the local ancestry can explain their current position on the PCA just by estimating the distances. they are almost in the same place as ABA so wouldn't that mean that they descend mostly from ABA? but it's hard to tell since the greeks were so close. south italians seem to be more ABA-like than ancient greeks though. and the steppe in myceneans pulled them towards central italy.
    the people that cluster identical with ABA are probably cypriots?

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    Jovialis: Consistent with your statements in post 804, I can model "me" using 0.25X with 4 Iron Age Romans with a distance of 2.0134. So we have yourself whose ancestors are from Puglia and Mine who are from overwhelmingly from Sicily (with some link to Calabria on maternal Grandmother Father's lineage going back to early 1800's).

    Target: PalermoTrapani
    Distance: 2.0134% / 2.01340808 | ADC: 0.25x
    57.2 R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    24.4 R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
    13.4 R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    5.0 R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecch

    Dodecad K12B distances for Iron Age Romans (R435 distance in Blue is 30.24)

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani
    4.18976133 R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    13.23641568 R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
    16.54641653 R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    17.40331865 R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    20.72008205 R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    23.17349132 R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    23.21816315 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    23.78614092 R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    25.41911682 R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
    27.54563123 R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
    30.24831400 R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    if we assume those 4 were the only source populations and that south italians were minoan like then only a big migration of ABA like ancestry to south italy that replaced 50+% of the local ancestry can explain their current position on the PCA just by estimating the distances. they are almost in the same place as ABA so wouldn't that mean that they descend mostly from ABA? but it's hard to tell since the greeks were so close. south italians seem to be more ABA-like than ancient greeks though. and the steppe in myceneans pulled them towards central italy.
    the people that cluster identical with ABA are probably cypriots?
    During the Late Bronze age a large migration of ABA-like replaced over 50% of the Northern Levant's admixture. There seems there have at least been some large scale movements from this kind of ancestry.

    I think Italians have been accumulating Iran-like ancestry since the since Neolithic Central Italians, can be modeled as 95% Greece_N or Central Anatolian. I think even a relatively smaller but still respectable impact could have shifted them to their current position; not necessarily 50%:

    Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12) Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14 ). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708.full


    Cypriots are not far off in terms of the PCA, but I am not sure of how well they can be modeled as ABA, or how big of a share they have.

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