Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

Why do I know that Calabria was called Italy?

Because: Salento was called Calabria :)

... the name Calabria was originally given to the Adriatic coast of the Salento peninsula in Apulia ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria
 
This is how it should be sung! :)


A reminder even to me that not all Italians are gracile. :) Some of these guys definitely have more than the average amount of Neanderthal.

It has to be said that the soccer players are better looking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmzQnOelH0

rugby players naturally should be more robust and muscular than footballers thats it is rare to find a italian rugby player who look
like totti ( which when i think on romans i see his face) :)
 
rugby players naturally should be more robust and muscular than footballers thats it is rare to find a italian rugby player who look
like totti ( which when i think on romans i see his face) :)

Well, I don't think Totti is particularly "gracile Med" looking either, but perhaps not like a rugby player. How much that "rugby" look is due to steroids is an open question, imo.

1438902275_extras_noticia_foton_7_1.jpg


Nor is Buffon "gracile". Takes after his Lunigianese mother. :)
3643922200000578-0-image-m-9_1468510229643.jpg


italian-goalkeeper-gianluigi-gigi-buffon-and-mother-maria-buffon-walking-D78A0G.jpg


Diversity, diversity...

One of my grandmothers was built like that. She could knock her sons flying when they were grown men, and did, once to my forty something year old father when she thought he stayed out too late celebrating a winning bid with his friends. "A decent man comes home to his family at a decent hour." WHACK! :)

Perhaps more representative? Click only if you don't mind seeing men in their undies.
http://whygo-eur.s3.amazonaws.com/www.italylogue.com/files/2010/06/dgad_2010.jpg

The best body among them, bar none. Cannavaro...just gorgeous in every way. Napoli produces more than its fair share of beautiful people.
https://static.flickr.com/73/180416708_4e5a918ba9_o.jpg
 
tell you the truth i am no expert in this field of anthropology and classifications
there are many "experts" in this field in apricity or so do they think lol ..... :LOL:
regards
adam

p.s
not gay or something generally speaking italian man are good looking
 
I don't know for sure but I don't think so. The Moots paper, from the little information I have, is centered only on the environs of Rome itself, and doesn't include Etruscans. I think the PCA may be from the paper that I think is coming from Stanford.

My point throughout this discussion has been that people want to talk about what "Romans" were or were not like without defining what they mean by "Roman". I keep trying to get through to them that it has a different meaning through time, and applies to people from different genetic clusters through time. By the end of the Empire practically everyone within its borders would have considered themselves "Romans". The Byzantines considered themselves "Romans" for centuries after that. At what point does the term become meaningless for population genetics purposes, and especially as concerns Italian genetics?

In terms of Republican Era Romans I would be quite surprised if the Republican Era "Romans" were "Aegean" like. I would expect them to be like other members of the Latin League and related groups, which is NOT to say that they were "Gaulish" like. I don't expect even northern Italians of the Republican period to be the same as the Gauls, of, well, Gaul. :)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if inhabitants of many parts of southern Italy were "Aegean like" already during the Roman Republican Era period. I would expect Imperial Era Italians, which is the more appropriate term, in my opinion, even in the northern reaches of the peninsula, to be different from what they were like during the Republic, but the question is, how different? Did the cline still exist, even if less defined? Were the "Collegno" Italians of the late Empire the norm or was there variation? Although even there, not all were "Aegean" like. I'm extremely close to one, and I am not "Aegean" like.

I would remind people that the "leaks", if accurate, say that in Republican Rome the "Romans" were split into two groups, one more "northern" Italian like, and one more "southern" Italian like. Note that none of them are Germanic like. So much for much of 19th and early 20th century anthropology. None plotted with Central Italians. If the papers show I'm on the wrong track, fine. I have no problem with being "slightly" wrong. :)

The darkest red is the "original" Rome.

704px-Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG


Note that even the bright red is Rome and her "allies", not considered Romans by the Romans themselves.

Timeline of the conquest of Italy:

That's why the dates for each sample are crucial.

@lynxbythetv (Could you people pick shorter, more recognizable "names"? Sometimes I don't address people by their names just because it's too annoying to reproduce them.)

You think these people look "Celtic", do you?

aba5741611341b87214148e9c425cc19.jpg


66360-004-8393CE1A.jpg

I can tell you a load of Swiss guys without any Italian ancestry do look like this, myself included. Even some French and British peoples do look like this. I call it the Alpine look, with those specific receding hairs, that you can brush from behind to the front. I think the Celtic Phenotype popularized is kinda overrated. In strong Eastern Hallstatt and La Tène compounds physical type was probably more leading towards Balkans and in Western compounds toward Alpine ones.
 
Silesian, you're talking about the whys of behavior. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you're saying there may be more behind people's actions than is apparent on the surface.

I am really thankful of your posts because they helped my understanding of the evolution of the enthusiast forum crowd and confirm some of my own suspicions about certain posters and websites.

There are alot of enthusiast websites on genetics with insidious agendas behind them, in my opinion (like openly ultra-racist ones), and a lot of their posters actively masquerading as academics while they manipulate data in order to push the outcomes that fit their own narrative.

On one of those websites, in fact the most popular one (I am not mentioning it, I don't want to advertise, but you know which one it is) an air of academic discourse is actively mantained while, in fact, there is nothing of the sort. For example, on that website, the calculators and spreadsheets maintained by the aforementioned eastern european fellow are used as a gospel, not to be challenged by any means, and people (like me) who dare to question the validity of the methodology and sampling of the eurogene dogma are met with passive-agressive irony and disdain.

The active posters there often misuse and abuse the naming of samples in order to push their own version of history and reality. An example I can give, without it being the only one or even a representative one, is mislabeling medieval and iron age samples as 'Ancient Macedonian', even though there is no such sample published to my knowledge by any academic institution, in order to push a certain narrative about the history of the southeastern parts of the Balkans. When met with questions about the validity of such naming practices, the authors either laugh it off saying that their spreadsheets and calculators are 'just for fun' or simply ignored.

There are too many examples like this to give, but the general concept that emerges, in my eyes, is perfectly in-tune with the rise of modern-day ultra-right/alt-right nationalism and racism in Central/Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and its aggression towards the people of the so-called Near East/Levant. Any connection of their warped perception of what entails to be European must be cleansed by any influence, genetic or otherwise, from the East, the 'other', the 'invader'. Whether this invader is identified as CHG genes, Natufian genes, or w/e else, depends heavily on each poster.

But the narrative remains the same.
 
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I can tell you a load of Swiss guys without any Italian ancestry do look like this, myself included. Even some French and British peoples do look like this. I call it the Alpine look, with those specific receding hairs, that you can brush from behind to the front. I think the Celtic Phenotype popularized is kinda overrated. In strong Eastern Hallstatt and La Tène compounds physical type was probably more leading towards Balkans and in Western compounds toward Alpine ones.
There’s a noticeable difference between the Swiss themselves.

It's also possible that those guys have some Italian ancestors, but they don’t know it.

(receding hair transcend ethnicity :)


tGQ7d2G.jpg
 
There’s a noticeable difference between the Swiss themselves.

It's also possible that those guys have some Italian ancestors, but they don’t know it.

(receding hair transcend ethnicity :)


tGQ7d2G.jpg

It's not about ancestry or ethnicity, it is about founding leaks in phenotypes. Its like when you look at Charlie Hunnam and you know his phenotype are likely of Anglo-Saxon or Vikings origin without knowing his ancestry wich could tell something else. Remember that Slonk Hill guy reconstructed from south england? This guy clearly looks of Alpine origin, he has this alpine-dinaric that differentiate him from what a local Bell Beaker phenotype would look like at this time. And Italians mainly northern, Swiss, French people have a continuum in some phenotypical aspects alongside southern germans and austrians. All the classical depictions of romans patricians shows an alpine guy, not a mediterranean one. There is a kind of a continuum. It's like a relic of ancient times, of ancient migrations, dont know what or when, but there is a thing. Like if i take myself, i'm R1b-U152 ( very italian right? ), everybody tells me i look like those classical roman sculptures, but my ancestry would show more dna linked to british islands than to italy. It's that old thing that link some of us europeans without a direct common origin or ancestry.
 
There are too many examples like this to give, but the general concept that emerges, in my eyes, is perfectly in-tune with the rise of modern-day ultra-right/alt-right nationalism and racism in Central/Eastern Europe and elsewhere
.

"elsewhere". we aren't going to play victim here are we? and racism stays racism no matter against what kind of people or admixtures the hate goes.
 
I am really thankful of your posts because they helped my understanding of the evolution of the enthusiast forum crowd and confirm some of my own suspicions about certain posters and websites.

There are alot of enthusiast websites on genetics with insidious agendas behind them, in my opinion (like openly ultra-racist ones), and a lot of their posters actively masquerading as academics while they manipulate data in order to push the outcomes that fit their own narrative.

On one of those websites, in fact the most popular one (I am not mentioning it, I don't want to advertise, but you know which one it is) an air of academic discourse is actively mantained while, in fact, there is nothing of the sort. For example, on that website, the calculators and spreadsheets maintained by the aforementioned eastern european fellow are used as a gospel, not to be challenged by any means, and people (like me) who dare to question the validity of the methodology and sampling of the eurogene dogma are met with passive-agressive irony and disdain.

The active posters there often misuse and abuse the naming of samples in order to push their own version of history and reality. An example I can give, without it being the only one or even a representative one, is mislabeling medieval and iron age samples as 'Ancient Macedonian', even though there is no such sample published to my knowledge by any academic institution, in order to push a certain narrative about the history of the southeastern parts of the Balkans. When met with questions about the validity of such naming practices, the authors either laugh it off saying that their spreadsheets and calculators are 'just for fun' or simply ignored.

There are too many examples like this to give, but the general concept that emerges, in my eyes, is perfectly in-tune with the rise of modern-day ultra-right/alt-right nationalism and racism in Central/Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and its aggression towards the people of the so-called Near East/Levant. Any connection of their warped perception of what entails to be European must be cleansed by any influence, genetic or otherwise, from the East, the 'other', the 'invader'. Whether this invader is identified as CHG genes, Natufian genes, or w/e else, depends heavily on each poster.

But the narrative remains the same.

Dont want to do the devil's advocat, but do you have exemples? European Far-Rights is targeting mostly Islam as a religion wich cannot enter in any way into the option of Racism but in Critical Thinking and not Middle-Easterners has a CHG or Natufian population.

I think you mingle two things here, some europeans fears of their traditional lifestyle being targeted from outsider cultures wich is legitimate. To some kind of internet racialism were people are debating who is the master race and such.

Because i never saw actual far right politicians actually talk about Yamnaya, Indo-Europeans, CHG or i dont know what else. Your point sounds confusing and just tied to Liberalism without any point to make.
 
European Far-Rights is targeting mostly Islam as a religion wich cannot enter in any way into the option of Racism but in Critical Thinking and not Middle-Easterners has a CHG or Natufian population.

that might be the case for the politicians (i somehow doubt that), but i'm sure many of the people who voted and thus helped this rise of the far-right have something against migrants in general not really because they are muslims. now if that is only tied to racism, i don't know but it certainly is part of it.
 
"elsewhere". we aren't going to play victim here are we? and racism stays racism no matter against what kind of people or admixtures the hate goes.

Sorry, your tone reeks of white supremacist apologist rationale. Not all racism is the same, like for example institutionalized racism in the form of slavery and handicapped economic and political liberties on minorities or other groups of ethnic origin or "color" is not the same as a swiss italian, for example, on the internet getting his feelings hurt by some other poster.

And I am not playing victim, even up until recently (and certainly an ongoing theme on anthro-forums) is the Greek ethnicity being targeted as 'non-European' enough (like that's even an issue for most Greeks) for Central/West European standards (or proponents of other ideologies like Pan-Slavism) due to admixture of the Greek population with other groups deemed as not 'white-enough'. Just take a look at the racist attacks of the German popular press against the Greek people, in the recent 'crisis' related events, something that other PIIGS countries (how imaginative and quaint) did not have to deal with, to this extent at least.

Your e-outrage is misplaced and contrived, 'friend'. Angela's posts were spot on and very informative.
 
Dont want to do the devil's advocat, but do you have exemples? European Far-Rights is targeting mostly Islam as a religion wich cannot enter in any way into the option of Racism but in Critical Thinking and not Middle-Easterners has a CHG or Natufian population.

I think you mingle two things here, some europeans fears of their traditional lifestyle being targeted from outsider cultures wich is legitimate. To some kind of internet racialism were people are debating who is the master race and such.

Because i never saw actual far right politicians actually talk about Yamnaya, Indo-Europeans, CHG or i dont know what else. Your point sounds confusing and just tied to Liberalism without any point to make.

Yeah, let's not play dumb, most people in the alt/extreme-far right don't know what CHG/Natufian admixture is, but proponents of such ideologies on forums like this one certainly do, and in the past, as Angela has attested before, have lost their shit when they discovered that their blue eyed/blond hair aryans had significant CHG admixture, for example.
 
Sorry, your tone reeks of white supremacist apologist rationale. Not all racism is the same, like for example institutionalized racism in the form of slavery and handicapped economic and political liberties on minorities or other groups of ethnic origin or "color" is not the same as a swiss italian, for example, on the internet getting his feelings hurt by some other poster.

And I am not playing victim, even up until recently (and certainly an ongoing theme on anthro-forums) is the Greek ethnicity being targeted as 'non-European' enough (like that's even an issue for most Greeks) for Central/West European standards (or proponents of other ideologies like Pan-Slavism) due to admixture of the Greek population with other groups deemed as not 'white-enough'. Just take a look at the racist attacks of the German popular press against the Greek people, in the recent 'crisis' related events, something that other PIIGS countries (how imaginative amd quaint) did not have to deal, to this extent at least.

Your e-outrage is misplaced and contrived, 'friend'. Angela's posts were spot on and very informative.

of course racism is not always the same but it is always racism and it doesn't matter against what kind of people. placing people in boxes and hate them for beeing in those boxes? i didn't have "whites" in my mind when i said that btw.

you know i think it's just funny that you mention the rise of the far right in central europe when there are other places where the far right saw a way bigger rise. i think someone else got hurt feelings because of germans? i don't think it was through racism in popular press though you would have to show me that first.
 
"elsewhere". we aren't going to play victim here are we? and racism stays racism no matter against what kind of people or admixtures the hate goes.

There’s no “playing” involved here. I've been reading this crap about Italians and Greeks for over eleven years now. You going to pretend it didn't permeate theapricity, forum biodiversity, where Agamemnon was a moderator, as well as Skadi and sites that were even worse?

You're being completely dishonest, and convince no one who has been on these forums for a long time. It used to be very much in the open.

Now a lot of them have migrated to more "respectable" sites and pretend it's all objective scientific analysis.

I'm going to keep exposing it so that newcomers to the "hobby" aren't fooled by this b.s.

Nor are these people who they say they are: Sikeliot has gone from claiming to be half Sicilian/half Portuguese Islander, to half Sicilian/1/4 Portuguese Islander/1/4 Polish, to now all Sicilian. That's when he wasn't claiming to be a Portuguese woman or a Hispanic. What is wrong with some people? Are they brain dead to believe anything someone like this says?

Or how about a 100% Italian, who grew up singing "Fratelli d'Italia", putting HANNIBAL up as his avatar?Yeah, that's normal, right? It would be like a Greek putting Xerxes up as his avatar. Inconceivable.

Don't waste your time. You will convince no honest people that it's something we made up. Not unless they just haven't been around very long. That's why I have screen shots of horrible comments by these people. They freaking keep annoying me and I'll put them up.
 
You just sound like a guy Instutitionalized by America's modern liberal views ( using White Supremacist, Institutionalized Racism, [ Outrage ] as actual important concepts ). The kind of those Twitter people, also called SJW people. Fine for you. But it doesn't make sense because if you are talking about Yamnaya, pretty sure we knew they were Dark Haired and Eyed before it was revealed that the middle-eastern-like component was CHG. Wich what is even the point, because the specialists of the subject tends to believe this CHG was in Eastern Europe and the Volga already for a long time, making it Local in terms of Migrations arguments.

Therefore, you only are a " positive " extremist as probably you would call yourself, flamming all types of people from different background and beliefs into some regressive american social science concepts. And because i cannot shut my mouth when someone is condenscending and have too high opinion about socio-cultural subjects than only concern himself and his world, we are there.
 
that might be the case for the politicians (i somehow doubt that), but i'm sure many of the people who voted and thus helped this rise of the far-right have something against migrants in general not really because they are muslims. now if that is only tied to racism, i don't know but it certainly is part of it.

You need to make difference between Race and Socio-Cultural. It's not per hasard than Dresden is the bastion of Far-Right Germans, it's because it's also one of the poorest place in germany with high unemployement.

People who work 8-9 hours per day are just discusted by migrants walking, drinking alcohol on the street, doing nothing. And dont tell me those guys would accept a job as a blue collar at any coast, they would not. Islam is another story because it's tied to the Fear of it.

Racism isn't a real thing, people are naturally careful with new things, but in general after a few sign of hospitality they are open-minded.

When shit start to get real with Far-Right grinding all the places everywhere, it's because there is a clear social problem, we are not talking about Black and White Americans here. We are talking about people with different languages, different cultures, different religions, that are supposed to do how they want.

What is happening in Europe, is exactly what needs to happen because people dont do anything, and when they do, it's just with words of critics and threats.
 
You just sound like a guy Instutitionalized by America's modern liberal views ( using White Supremacist, Institutionalized Racism, [ Outrage ] as actual important concepts ). The kind of those Twitter people, also called SJW people. Fine for you. But it doesn't make sense because if you are talking about Yamnaya, pretty sure we knew they were Dark Haired and Eyed before it was revealed that the middle-eastern-like component was CHG. Wich what is even the point, because the specialists of the subject tends to believe this CHG was in Eastern Europe and the Volga already for a long time, making it Local in terms of Migrations arguments.

Therefore, you only are a " positive " extremist as probably you would call yourself, flamming all types of people from different background and beliefs into some regressive american social science concepts. And because i cannot shut my mouth when someone is condenscending and have too high opinion about socio-cultural subjects than only concern himself and his world, we are there.

I have flamed no-one, you're the one who is liberal with the accusations, you seem obsessed to try to label me somehow, I can do you a favor and inform you that I consider myself to be a classical-liberal, inspired by the writings of John Locke and Adam Smith. I don't champion any 'SJW' cause as you say, this type of political activism does not exist where I live and work and I am not interested in it. I despise racism, especially in its Western and Eastern European/Balkan varieties and I try to treat all ethnic groups the same, even those who call me a 'sand-nigger' online due to my mixed background and pull to the East, although I have to admit it is very hard sometimes and they do manage to make my blood boil on occasions.

As for my post, I merely described what I perceived to be a current trend among a lot of users on the anthro-boards. I know the Steppe people were probably not blonde haired/blue eyed, and you know it and I am pretty sure those with the racist agendas know it as well. They just chose to downplay it and hide it within their narrative.
 
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I have flamed no-one, you're the one who is liberal with the accusations, you seem obsessed to try to label me somehow, I can do you a favor and inform you that I consider myself to be a classical-liberal, inspired by the writings of John Locke and Adam Smith. I don't champion any 'SJW' cause as you say, this type of political activism does not exist where I live and work and I am not interested in it. I despise racism, especially in its Western and Eastern European/Balkan varieties and I try to treat all ethnic groups the same, even those who call me a 'sand-nigger' online due to my mixed background and pull to the East.

As for my post, I merely described what I perceived to be a current trend among a lot of users on the anthro-boards. I know the Steppe people were probably not blonde haired/blue eyed, and you know it and I am pretty sure those with the racist agendas know it as well. They just chose to downplay it and hide it within their narrative.

I mean you are using White Supremacist and Institutionalized Racism, wich are clearly more rooted to the United States and Black People fights for Rights than European history, so you clearly seem to at least being a little bit Institutionalized by American Social Sciences, even if you dont see it. And obviously if you are Greek, you shouldn't know those terms, but this is Internet, not Greece. And by Liberalism i'm talking about the social left american views, not about Locke.

Why are you despising Eastern and Southeastern Europeans Racism, and not all type of Racism? Dont you ever see it around yourself? Because i do.

When you talk about Institutionalized Racism you are also thinking i guess that Reverse Racism against White People cannot exist, because Racism is only tied to social dominance and if you are Poor or a Migrant you dont have any dominance right? What about the hypothetic dominance of a man on a woman, and it's dominance is tied to racial conflict?

I never saw or remember have seen clear sign of Racism leading towards Steppe people being some kind of dominant blue and blonde race. I do believe myself, away from samples that some Steppe people must have been Blonde and Redhaired according to some easy correlations, but i dont make it a special case. And i do not understand to WHO exactly are going those targets. I see sometimes on Eurogenes some dubious affirmations from all sides, mainly by posters, but nothing that dramatic it may look.

Edit: And about the picture you posted it's kind of hilarious and no, i never saw it.

But tell me, where did you found it yourself? Did you dig something? Did you typed Blonde - Aryans - Sintashta - Conquerors - India in Google Images? Kind of suspicious you give me that, if you go dig on white nationalist photos some ways to get offended... well it's your life.
 

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