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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    Can we all stay on topic and not derail this thread?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    of course but there was simply no reason to make this a nordicist thing. those people that were mentioned could as well be italians it would make no difference. btw isn't beeing proud of your heritage nearly as senseless as badmouthing the one of others?
    My Heritage defines who I am, and makes me appreciate the differences of customs and food of others, especially when I’m no longer living in the place of my origin. I also expose others to my culture and customs without realizing it.
    I absolutely disagree with the notion of Pride of Heritage being classified as a form of racial superiority, or a racist emotional attribute.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Obsessive repetition of pet theories is not forbidden here, and nor are uninformed comments about genetics. However, you always take it further. That's why you've been banned everywhere, including at "Davidski's" site.
    If you continue to cause disruption you'll continue to get infractions. Is that so difficult to understand?
    Another one on ignore.
    Unbelievable... You little, little woman.
    At Least Davidski had the courage to ban me out right. But I think you are slightly diferent genre. It's worthwhile just to see your colors. Its worthwhile.


    The truth is I Am on the verge of being proved right, and the only one to have been on the target with my shulaverian hypothesis. So keep trying to silence me here. I. Know, the princess type.

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    Truth being told... From 2015 when I was a demenered in every. Forum to 2018 when virtual all lads and investigative center around the planet are postulating the South Caucasus as the origin of Pie was a journey. PIE and L23... But we will get there.

    From the beginning I have said that there would be a day when everybody "knew all along", or "had a felling" that it was the South Caucasus. That day is Coming too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    of course but there was simply no reason to make this a nordicist thing. those people that were mentioned could as well be italians who claim the opposite it would make no difference. btw isn't beeing proud of your heritage nearly as senseless as badmouthing the one of others?
    Every nation has its differences in its people, even germans......bavarians are different from saxons, hessians etc
    french have there differences as well, bretons from savoyards to gascons etc
    even small nations like switzerland
    its not nordicist ..........unless you feed the beast
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    BACK ON TOPIC, as Pax so wisely advised. I'm tempted to remove all these stupid posts, including my own.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    This group isn't making their Italian samples available, although I'm sure academics can get them. However, they do thank the following:

    "the National Alpini Association (Associazione Nazionale Alpini)for their help in collecting Italian DNA samples at the 86th 685 national assembly in Piacenza in 2013,686 in particular Bruno Plucani, Giangaspare Basile, Claudio Ferrari and the municipality of Piacenza687 (A.O., A.A.)."

    Also, anyone have any idea about the following and how to interpret it? They say red is low for migration edges.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This group isn't making their Italian samples available, although I'm sure academics can get them. However, they do thank the following:

    "the National Alpini Association (Associazione Nazionale Alpini)for their help in collecting Italian DNA samples at the 86th 685 national assembly in Piacenza in 2013,686 in particular Bruno Plucani, Giangaspare Basile, Claudio Ferrari and the municipality of Piacenza687 (A.O., A.A.)."

    Also, anyone have any idea about the following and how to interpret it? They say red is low for migration edges.
    Funny thing, Red is where we would expect Steppe and Iran related migrations path.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I kinda doubt they used Southern Greeks or Peloponnesians in this study bc there's not a lot of Bronze Age Anatolian in the Balkan or SEEurope samples. Some of those have zilch of that.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I kinda doubt they used Southern Greeks or Peloponnesians in this study bc there's not a lot of Bronze Age Anatolian in the Balkan or SEEurope samples. Some of those have zilch of that.
    Maybe it’s because Anatolia Broze Age “was excluded and included in the set of Proximate sources”.
    I’m having an hard time making sense of this paper.


    ...ratio of the residuals in the NNLS analysis (Materials and Methods, Supplementary materials) for all the Italian and European clusters when ABA was excluded and included in the set of Proximate sources; H) as in G), but excluding/ncluding SBA instead of ABA; J) Ancient Italian and other selected ancient samples projected on the components inferred from modern European individuals. Labels are placed at the centroid of the individuals belonging to the indicated clusters...

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    sense from this paper? using CHG, EHG, WHG along already admixed steppe and anatolian BA samples (EHG + CHG / WHG + CHG) is the best way to dump anything, in such a way they would be capable to test my brother and suggest that I'm his son... even if he is younger :)
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Funny thing, Red is where we would expect Steppe and Iran related migrations path.
    That's what I see as well. The "red" is going from Anatolia right across Greece and then west and also from a more northern part of Anatolia across approximately Albania and then into eastern Italy. The steppe "red" enters Italy from the northeast corner, which is correct. It also shows where North African would go into Iberia, and it's the Neolithic path as well. Further, it correlates with their comments in the text about the direction of gene flow.

    Either we don't know what low migration edge means or it's a typo.

    A word about the Greek samples. This is the Estonian Biocenter set of samples except for those from Italy. So far as I know their Greek samples are all from Thessaly. That's why the figures for Anatolian Bronze Age and perhaps also for "IN" are lower than they should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's what I see as well. The "red" is going from Anatolia right across Greece and then west and also from a more northern part of Anatolia across approximately Albania and then into eastern Italy. The steppe "red" enters Italy from the northeast corner, which is correct. It also shows where North African would go into Iberia, and it's the Neolithic path as well. Further, it correlates with their comments in the text about the direction of gene flow.

    Either we don't know what low migration edge means or it's a typo.

    A word about the Greek samples. This is the Estonian Biocenter set of samples except for those from Italy. So far as I know their Greek samples are all from Thessaly. That's why the figures for Anatolian Bronze Age and perhaps also for "IN" are lower than they should be.
    I wonder if the more northern edge of the flow from Anatolia is Bronze Age flow of J2b, and the more southern one across Crete and southern Greece is J2a? Too fanciful? :) The more southern one is also Neolithic perhaps, as well.

    It looks like steppe going down into northeast Spain as well.

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    According to Gregorovius, the Latin chroniclers stated that Narses, the Exarch, after having been recalled to Constantinople, had "summoned the Lombards into Italy," who had previously fought for him as mercenaries against the Goths. With the Lombards, "greedy swarms of Gepidae, Saxons, Sueves, and Bulgarians" descended on northern Italy. (Rome and Medieval Culture: Selections from History of the City of Rome in the Middle Ages, pp. 30-34.)

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    MUST the usual suspects exaggerate everything to support their agenda and their past ludicrous claims?

    I would direct people to results from 23andme. "Middle Eastern" is defined by 23andme as what other companies call "Caucasus" or Northern West Asia, i.e. Turkey, Iran, Armenia, the Caucasus countries. "North African" is not just North Africa proper, but also Arabia, Jordan and Palestine. I have been pointing that out for 7 years, but some people think if you repeat misinformation long enough, people will believe it.

    I share with a load of Calabrians and Sicilians.

    The Sicilians sometimes get 4-5% or so of "North African", which is the total of North Africa AND the Levant. That makes sense to me because the perhaps "North African" and "Levantine" ydna might come to about 10% in Sicily, but it was again a heavily male mediated migration, so I think it makes sense it would get whittled down.

    That's more proof to me that by not having a SWAsian reference for a component that's been in Italy for thousands of years, they wind up exaggerating the amount of North African in Sicilians. I highly doubt it's above 10%, and it's probably somewhere around 6-7% maximum if I had to guess.

    As for Calabria and other parts of Southern Italy, there's no way a few thousand Muslim soldiers sent to Bari or Napoli and then killed or expelled from there are going to import all this North African into Southern Italy. This is supported by the fact that Calabrians tend to get much lower North African than Sicilians at 23andme, under 1% in some cases, and other Southern Italians even less. Both groups can get double digits of additional "Northern West Asian". For Calabrians it can go from 10-20%, but that's a separate issue.

    (Every time I share some actual fact about Italian history I see it repeated and distorted on other sites. Hell, a lot of the time they use my exact words to describe the occurrence, but then distort the significance.)

    If some people knew anything about Italian history they'd also know that there was just as much and probably a lot more gene flow going from Southern Italy (especially Calabria) into Sicily than the other way around, starting in the Middle Ages, but continuing into pretty recent times, as for example after the devastating earthquakes in Messina, when a lot of Calabrians moved in to help resettle the area. It's for that reason that I said until I was blue in the face that you couldn't make much of the genetics of the Messina area.

    As for the Etruscans, I think they will show CHG/Iran Neo, and I think there will be some J2 in the population. Whether there was a specific elite migration to Tuscany from the east I don't know. Hopefully, the ancient dna should clarify matters. However, I think we should be able to put to bed the notion that all the CHG/Iran Neo that came into Italy (and into Greece and the Balkans and parts of Spain as well) came with the Etruscans and all came in the last millennium BC. or even later. I've been saying for five years and more that given that it was already in Otzi, who was Copper Age, it must have started long before the first millennium BC, perhaps in the late Neolithic-Chalcolithic- early Bronze, and given it was all over the Balkans, could not have been unique to Italy.

    That's it. I don't see anything yet that says I was wrong, although if I was, that's fine too. You can't be right all the time.
    Last edited by Angela; 17-12-18 at 16:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wonder if the more northern edge of the flow from Anatolia is Bronze Age flow of J2b, and the more southern one across Crete and southern Greece is J2a? Too fanciful? :) The more southern one is also Neolithic perhaps, as well.

    It looks like steppe going down into northeast Spain as well.
    There was different Bronze Age Culture pockets in the Balkans. We know that Vucedol had Yamnaya Z2103 but also J2b. Maybe Steppe migrations and an Anatolian migration happened in the same time frame. There was a J2b into the Caucasus paper from MBA North Caucasus and a J2b with Z2103 in Hajji Firuz in the Central and South Asian paper. We know that Maikop and Kura-Araxes were almost indistinguishable. The link of J2b and Z2103 seems pretty strong, i wonder... I'm pretty certain that R1b-Z2103 doesn't have an origin south of the caucasus, but maybe the relationship between steppe and transcaucasia was stronger already before, we just didn't found the transcaucasian outliers with lots of steppe.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here's a comment on the paper by Razib Khan:

    Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe. The paper points to the fact that it seems that a Caucasus-related ancestry that has been seen in early Bronze Age Greece also seems to have impacted southern Italy and Sicily. There’s a paper that will come out soon with ancient samples from Sicily and Sardinia that confirms this. The same Caucasus-related ancestry is found in the steppe expansion, but that too came into Italy through the north.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...ad-12-16-2018/

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    Anatolia Bronze Age is 3000-2000 BC right? So Copper Age in Europe..

    Utilizzando Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's a comment on the paper by Razib Khan:
    So, there we go. Real confirmation at last, if Razib Khan's sources are correct, and I assume they are.

    @Cato,
    Indeed. Copper Age in Europe, like Otzi. :)

    Of course, there might have been later flows as well. We'll have to wait and see.

    I knew Hellenthal was wrong in proposing this admixture in the late Roman and early post Roman era, and said so. They should have known the limitations of the software they were using, and that it only picked up the latest signals, as indeed the Egyptian ancient dna paper proved. Perhaps this paper was in part a way to address that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's a comment on the paper by Razib Khan:
    when is early bronze age Greece, does he mean the cycladic culture in the Aegean?
    is there a culture in Italy that could be related to it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    when is early bronze age Greece, does he mean the cycladic culture in the Aegean?
    is there a culture in Italy that could be related to it?
    I believe the Early Bronze Age begins in Cycladic, Helladic and Minoan regions at around 3,000 B.C., roughly around the same time and a bit before those material cultures become really distinctive.

    The Bronze Age in southern Italy is to my knowledge quite late. I think it post-dates the south Iberian Bronze Age by quite some time. Central and Southern Italy appears to be quite 'underdeveloped' in general throughout the metal ages. I believe that the Apennine culture could have been influenced by the Balkans or the Aegean, and the impact seen in the DNA could well be explained by the delayed development of the local population.

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    I would have seen this Anatolian-Greek Bronze Age way earlier than Mycenneans. Malik and Bubanj in Albania wich is an hotspot of J2b nowadays, could have been some cultural expressions of this Iran related ancestry. From there they would mingle with Steppe in Vucedol and go in Italy and the Islands from Sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I believe the Early Bronze Age begins in Cycladic, Helladic and Minoan regions at around 3,000 B.C., roughly around the same time and a bit before those material cultures become really distinctive.

    The Bronze Age in southern Italy is to my knowledge quite late. I think it post-dates the south Iberian Bronze Age by quite some time. Central and Southern Italy appears to be quite 'underdeveloped' in general throughout the metal ages. I believe that the Apennine culture could have been influenced by the Balkans or the Aegean, and the impact seen in the DNA could well be explained by the delayed development of the local population.
    Early Cycladic started ca 3400 BC, but I'm not sure whether that was already bronze age or still late neolithic.
    It is supposed to have been influenced by or originated from Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Early Cycladic started ca 3400 BC, but I'm not sure whether that was already bronze age or still late neolithic.
    It is supposed to have been influenced by or originated from Anatolia.
    These are the latest dates (2018):



    The absolute beginning of the EBA in Europe is marked by Cernavoda III in the very east of Bulgaria.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    EARLY BRONZE AGE IN SICILY:
    "In Sicily the oldest phases of prehistory were overcome at the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, when it received a new cultural wave, probably from the Middle East, today labelled with the name of the Castelluccio culture, from the homonymous prehistoric site near the city of Noto. This cultural facies (segmentation), rather unusual compared to those of the Copper Age, is verified in the south-east and south of the island, up to the provinces of Agrigento and Caltanissetta (in the west and in the middle of the island), and constitutes the “starting line” of the Sicilian bronze age. It is certainly dated to 2169±120 BCE (calibrated value) thanks to radiometric dating performed on 18 coal samples which proved to be the oldest of this culture and which were found at the archaeological site of "Muculufa", a few kilometres north-east of Licata town."

    "
    At this early stage of the Bronze Age, Sicily was divided into four macro-regions, each one of them with their own culture: northern Sicily with the Rodì-Tindari-Vallelunga culture, the western one, with the Naro/Partanna culture, the south-east with the Castelluccio culture and the Capo Graziano culture of the Aeolian Islands. Of these, that of Castelluccio seems to be the most homogeneous culture in this period, perhaps because it spread over a larger area and, consequently, it is much better known today.The prehistoric settlement of Castelluccio was built on a rather isolated but defensible rocky spur. The archaeologist Paolo Orsi, who identified it between the late-19th and early-20th century CE, found large quantities of ceramic fragments among the refuse and explored the artificial cave tombs. These tombs are oven-shaped and dug into the rocks. There are small oval-shaped rooms with a diameter of between 1.5-2.0 metres, sometimes preceded by an ante-cella and still containing grave goods. The Castelluccian villages, sometimes fortified, showed a rather interesting agricultural and pastoral reality. Their ceramics have been classified as "matt-painted ware" and have close ties with an Anatolian culture of the end of the 3rd millennium BCE, so-called "Cappadocia". The wares show a variety of pottery shapes and geometric designs, the latter consisting of brown or black bands crossed on a yellow or red background. Forms include single or two-handled conical glasses, tall footed-vases known as "fruit bowls", large amphorae, bowls on a tall conical foot, and globular pyxides (boxes) on a small conical foot."



    "The graves dug in the rock were closed with dry-stone walls, but also with tombstone doors, some decorated in relief with spiral-shaped motifs. In two of the graves there are carved images that could allude to sex, therefore, to the continuation of life. In some of these graves carved globule bones have been found that are reminiscent of examples elsewhere (southeastern Italy, Malta, southern Greece and Troy II and III). The carved bones are animal bone segments and are between 13-15 centimetres in length. They are sometimes decorated with incisions on which, successively, globules in relief have been made. Their use is not yet known, although some scholars have supposed that these artefacts could be small idols, while others think they could be dagger handles."

    MIDDLE BRONZE AGE IN SICILY:
    "From the end of 1500 to c. 1200 BCE in Sicily, important coastal settlements developed and the island began to acquire strategic-commercial importance thanks to the intense exchanges with Mycenaean Greece. The find of a large number of Aegean vases in the Sicilian tombs of this period proves a phenomenon that caused the birth of real emporia in which the transmarine trades were practised, as had happened in the Aeolian islands. This was just the age that the Milazzese culture flourished in the Aeolian Islands. In Sicily, for its part, a culture closely related to the Aeolian arose, called Thapsos, from the ancient name the Greeks gave to a peninsula (nowadays Magnisi) situated between Augusta and Syracuse, which gives its name to the most famous Sicilian culture of the middle Bronze Age."
    https://www.ancient.eu/article/1190/bronze-age-sicily/

    I've always wanted to get a look at some samples from the Cetina culture:
    ]



    https://www.academia.edu/17424037/Th...aly_and_Sicily

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