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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

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    Hm this Cetina Culture is interesting, i never heard of it. Do Bubanj and Malik were part of it? And do we know in what the J2b individual from Vucedol cluster with? Steppe or Iran related?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Here's a poster I found on Cetina culture from a google search.



    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...jectUpdatesLog.

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    I found this interesting blog on the contexte: https://archeorient.hypotheses.org/8247

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's a poster I found on Cetina culture from a google search.



    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...jectUpdatesLog.
    Yes, I think that shows that while they may have been seafarers, their influence went pretty far inland.

    I remembered some old stuff from dienekes about the change in physical anthropology in Greece. Fwiw...

    "I have located the text of George Panagiaris important 1993 doctoral thesis on Greek skeletal material. This may be one of the most comprehensive efforts to study the Ancient Greek population from a physical anthropological perspective (413 male and 354 female crania, using 65 biometric characters as well odontological traits).

    Panagiaris' conclusions in English can be found in p.10 of the document. He confirms that the greater period of discontinuity in the material is observed during the Helladic period (=Bronze Age in Greek archaeology), where broad-headed incoming groups appear, side by side with the older Mediterranean population. He attributes this to the arrival of such people from the highlands Pindos range, although he sees the possibility of Anatolian influences as well, but has no comparative data. He cites the tendency for broader skulls in higher latitudes, although this general trend in H. sapiens probably does not explain the local trend within Caucasoids where the key difference is between mountaineers (where the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types are well-represented) and lowland folk. Perhaps, if various ancient DNA projects manage to study some Greek material we may be able to ascertain the events that were taking place in Greece at that time.


    Of course, the issue cannot be seen in isolation, because at this time we see an increase in brachycephalic types inCrete and Anatolia, the appearance of the intrusive brachycephalic Bell Beaker folk in Western Europe, and perhaps even the presence of the interfluvial type (Pamir-Ferghana type) in the eastern Saka.


    Personally, I see something important in these developments:why would broad-headed mountaineers make their appearance in the lowlands at this time in history? I am strongly leaning towards the idea that this has to do with
    metallurgical innovation during this time. According to Roberts et al. (2009), from which the figure on the left is taken:

    I think it's interesting that the spread is into the part of Spain where we have speculated there might have been some "eastern" influence in the transmission of metallurgy and settlement design as well as burials.

    My only point upthread in raising the issue of Cetina, which may or may not have had genetic influences more recently from Anatolia is that there's a lot we don't know about the late Copper Age, Early Bronze Age in Italy, and that there may be some connections to Helladic Greece, which I would describe as an Aegean culture.


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    Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    when is early bronze age Greece, does he mean the cycladic culture in the Aegean?
    is there a culture in Italy that could be related to it?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Hm this Cetina Culture is interesting, i never heard of it. Do Bubanj and Malik were part of it? And do we know in what the J2b individual from Vucedol cluster with? Steppe or Iran related?
    I mentioned this a year ago for the J2b
    You need to also look at Busa cattle as part of cetina culture
    only recent discussion is its main influence , vucedol or vinca
    .
    IIRC , maciano said this individual had steppe markers
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I mentioned this a year ago for the J2b
    You need to also look at Busa cattle as part of cetina culture
    only recent discussion is its main influence , vucedol or vinca
    .
    IIRC , maciano said this individual had steppe markers
    Hm, i just looked again at the spreadsheets of the Mathieson paper, and the J2b2a sample is considered " Croatia_EMBA " and is dated from 1700-1500 BCE. While the " Croatia_Vucedol " were R1b-Z2103 and G2a2a1a2a and are dated from 2800-2600 BCE. Are Croatia EMBA and Croatia Vucedol the same thing? How much the J2b2a individual was " Steppe " and what other marker did he have?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Hm, i just looked again at the spreadsheets of the Mathieson paper, and the J2b2a sample is considered " Croatia_EMBA " and is dated from 1700-1500 BCE. While the " Croatia_Vucedol " were R1b-Z2103 and G2a2a1a2a and are dated from 2800-2600 BCE. Are Croatia EMBA and Croatia Vucedol the same thing? How much the J2b2a individual was " Steppe " and what other marker did he have?
    According to Maciamo:

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    According to Maciamo:

    So this is interesting, 45% of broadly-Yamnaya. What are the 55% rest? This guy could ultimately came from South Caucasus by Maikop and Maikop related. Like the J2b sample from MBA North Caucasus of the Caucasus paper. But if he would show some large Anatolian_Chl it could also imply a reflux from North Caucasus to Anatolia and ultimately Balkans.

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    With Hajji Firuz, North Caucasus and Croatia Middle Bronze Age, this make the 3rd time we see J2b alongside R1b-Z2103 either related with Steppe or with Iran-related. This cannot be some coincidence right? We can also argue that the same rule can be applied from J2a and G2a2, but for those two latter, we have multiple samples from a lot of different relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    With Hajji Firuz, North Caucasus and Croatia Middle Bronze Age, this make the 3rd time we see J2b alongside R1b-Z2103 either related with Steppe or with Iran-related. This cannot be some coincidence right? We can also argue that the same rule can be applied from J2a and G2a2, but for those two latter, we have multiple samples from a lot of different relationships.
    I don't know where @Maciamo got the percentages from, if he chimes in, I would love to know if he has them for that 55% and also the Mathieson Z2103 also if he has it.

    With modern distributions, there is this spot concentrated around slightly west of the Volga River in Russia where both J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 spike. If we can rely on modern distributions to say something possible for ancient ones, then maybe these two became entangled early on? Also EV13 has a similar spike, could it possibly also be entangled? Either that or there is some measurement issue happening in this West Volga region:







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    Angela,

    The prehistoric settlement of Castelluccio was built on a rather isolated but defensible rocky spur.
    The Castelluccian villages, sometimes fortified, showed a rather interesting agricultural and pastoral reality.

    It makes me think of the construction of La Bastida on a hilltop near Murcia, eastern Iberia some 170 later (2000 BC) and the subsequent El Argar culture.
    Was the settlement of Castelluccio one of the earliest in Castelluccio culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I don't know where @Maciamo got the percentages from, if he chimes in, I would love to know if he has them for that 55% and also the Mathieson Z2103 also if he has it.

    With modern distributions, there is this spot concentrated around slightly west of the Volga River in Russia where both J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 spike. If we can rely on modern distributions to say something possible for ancient ones, then maybe these two became entangled early on? Also EV13 has a similar spike, could it possibly also be entangled? Either that or there is some measurement issue happening in this West Volga region:






    Seems like J2b, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 have two spots in common. The Samara Bend and Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I don't know where @Maciamo got the percentages from, if he chimes in, I would love to know if he has them for that 55% and also the Mathieson Z2103 also if he has it.

    With modern distributions, there is this spot concentrated around slightly west of the Volga River in Russia where both J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 spike. If we can rely on modern distributions to say something possible for ancient ones, then maybe these two became entangled early on? Also EV13 has a similar spike, could it possibly also be entangled? Either that or there is some measurement issue happening in this West Volga region:






    Actually, the E-V13 on the Volga is very likely linked to the Turkish people that converted themselves into Islam. The Tatars, the Bulgars and what not. Of all ancient sample that we have from Neolithic Balkans and the Caucasus, it's hard to believe it has the same history or relationship as R1b and J2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Angela,The prehistoric settlement of Castelluccio was built on a rather isolated but defensible rocky spur.The Castelluccian villages, sometimes fortified, showed a rather interesting agricultural and pastoral reality.It makes me think of the construction of La Bastida on a hilltop near Murcia, eastern Iberia some 170 later (2000 BC) and the subsequent El Argar culture.Was the settlement of Castelluccio one of the earliest in Castelluccio culture?
    That's precisely what I meant, Bicicleur.

    The question is, did they perhaps carry Z2103 and steppe, or J2b and some additional IN, or maybe both? Certainly, the Yamnaya were not seafarers, but the Aegean people were...

    I don't know if it was the first. This period has never received much attention, and the dating is haphazard. From what they can tell, however, there were a large number of sites of this culture spread all across Southern Sicily, and it seems that this area experienced a period of population growth in the Early Bronze Age.

    "At the Castelluccio site, some tombs were sealed with elaborately carved stone door slabs. The carvings on the slabs, two of which are now on display in the Siracusa Museum, have varied interpretations as fertility symbols, symbols meant to ward off evil or even as Aegean-type spirals (Figure 9). Other tombs include columns carved into the façade that creates a more decorative and elaborate appearance. The infrequency of large tombs identified in EBA cemeteries along with the appearance of variation in tomb decoration has been interpreted as evidence for the development of more stratified societies."

    "There is evidence of craft and pottery production, flint working, agriculture, fishing and pastoralism for Castelluccian societies. Faunal remains found at many EBA sites indicate a diet which consisted of domesticated pig, sheep/goat, cattle, and seafood (Holloway et al. 1988:46;Leighton 1999:116). Based on faunal remains uncovered at important Early Bronze Agesettlement sites such as La Muculufa and Monte Grande, Massimo Cultraro (2004) suggests aninter-community cooperative socio-economic structure existed in Sicily at the time. He statesthat the consumption of cattle and larger animals would have required the maintenance of breeding herds."

    So far, they've found copper but bronze, but the bronze finds are rare. https://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/v...30&context=etd

    Perhaps any metals of value would mostly have been looted long since? They mention that they have remains but they have never been tested for DNA!

    Interestingly, residue of olive oil was found in ceramics at a Castelluccio site. "“The first chemical signature of olive oil were identified on samples from Minoan Crete: Aphrodite’s Kephali (3200–2700 BC), Chrysokamino (2300-1900 BC), and Tourloti (1200/1190-1070 BC).”“With regards to the prehistory of Italy, the only cases known of identification of chemical signatures of olive oil are those of Broglio di Trebisacce (Cosenza) and Roca Vecchia (Lecce) where large storage jars dated to the local Late Bronze Age (12th-11th century BC) tested positive.”

    “In this perspective, the results obtained with the three samples from Castelluccio become the first chemical evidence of the oldest olive oil in Italian prehistory, pushing back the hands of the clock for the systematic olive oil production by at least 700 years.”
    "http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/...oil-06054.html

    In the following google book there's an article which contains maps of the many Castelluccio settlements, many inland, but some on the coast. Many are encircled by stone walls, one with semi-circular stone towers. The bronze spear heads are said to bear similarities with those of the Aegean.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=tN...Sicily&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Eunuchs were common thing if that is your point,yes.And i do not deny that.
    However Eunuch job was very much different from that of the either soldier or administrator.
    You quoted for the Janissaries,they weren't castrated but "forbidden" to marry.Janissaries were initially forbidden from marriage or from having families. However, they were eventually able to lobby the Sultan to have this restriction lifted. Later on, they also successfully lobbied the Sultans to allow their sons to follow them into service.Do you think that Janissaries with such a influence that could even change Sultans and have even killed some of them,were not having any woman?
    Eunuchs and Janissaries were not same,much less the administrators.
    There were also black eunuchs for example that guarded the Ottoman harem.
    I do not know how castration was done in medieval eunuchs of the Islamic caliphates, but the (successful, of course) castration done in castrati singers in the modern era in Europe did not prevent men from having sex with women (or men, mind you), it just prevented them from having the hormones and the sperm that the testicles provide, thus not being able to have descendants of their own, too. Some castrati were even way too coveted by female admirers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's precisely what I meant, Bicicleur.
    there are a few hints, and little proof, but we have the same gut feeling
    probably soon new studies will prove us right or wrong and provide more details on the matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I do not know how castration was done in medieval eunuchs of the Islamic caliphates, but the (successful, of course) castration done in castrati singers in the modern era in Europe did not prevent men from having sex with women (or men, mind you), it just prevented them from having the hormones and the sperm that the testicles provide, thus not being able to have descendants of their own, too. Some castrati were even way too coveted by female admirers...
    I don't think that the eunuchs that were supposed to serve or guard the harems were supposed to be capable of sex.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Actually, the E-V13 on the Volga is very likely linked to the Turkish people that converted themselves into Islam. The Tatars, the Bulgars and what not. Of all ancient sample that we have from Neolithic Balkans and the Caucasus, it's hard to believe it has the same history or relationship as R1b and J2b.
    Ok, so I think its becoming even more clear now. This spike in the Volga is also even happening with more rare clades related to Albanians like PF7562. This reduces the chance even more of this entanglement being a coincidence of only Z2103. I will post maps with the populations that are sourced in them below.

    The population that seems to be responsible for this spike are the Bashkirs! They are listed as having these high readings for Z2103, PF7562, and M269(xL51) unlike other surrounding Turkic groups in the region (this is especially clear for PF7562).

    This is very interesting since linguists and Bashkir scholars, before any DNA evidence seem to have believed that the Bashkir people were originally an
    Indo European speaking people (Indo-Iranian branch). This explains why other surrounding turkic groups dont spike:


    Bashkir links to extinct branches of Indo-Iranian peoples of the Eurasian Steppe have been proposed by scholars since the early 20th century, while Russian linguist Eugene Helimski pronounces that this "extinct Indo-Iranian branch" must be regarded as the "Andronovo population".[7]

    A Bashkir scholar Salavat Gallyamov – citing a philologist Nikolai Dmitriev – indicates that
    Iranian influence on the Bashkir phonology can be assumed, supporting hypotheses that the Bashkir originally spoke an Indo-Iranian language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs



    Here are the maps:





    R1b-PF7562:

    Kosovo - 9/114 (7,89 %);
    Macedonia - 4/79 (5,06 %);
    Albania - 11/223 (4,93 %);
    Serbia - 7/235 (2,98 %);
    Armenia - 5/176 (2,84 %);
    Cyprus - 16/574 (2,79 %);
    Laz - 1/36 (2,78 %);
    Lezgins - 1/41 (2,44 %);
    Italy - 26/1094 (2,38 %);
    Tabasarans - 1/43 (2,33 %);
    Greece - 8/347 (2,31 %);
    Crete - 4/193 (2,07 %);
    Turkey - 15/737 (2,04 %);
    Algeria - 2/102 (1,96 %);
    Romania - 10/527 (1,9 %);
    Bashkirs - 10/586 (1,71 %);
    Herzegovina - 2/141 (1,42 %);
    Bosnia - 1/78 (1,28 %);




    R1b-Z2103:

    Armenia - 45/176 (25,57 %);
    Bashkirs - 126/586 (21,5 %);
    Dagestan - 87/724 (12,02 %);
    Turkey - 88/737 (11,94 %);
    Komis (Perm Oblast) - 7/61 (11,48 %);
    Kosovo - 13/114 (11,4 %);
    Albania - 22/223 (9,87 %);
    Iran - 106/1303 (8,14 %);
    Iraq - 2/28 (7,14 %);
    Greece - 21/347 (6,05 %);




    R1b-M269:

    Armenia - 50/176 (28,41 %);
    Bashkirs - 136/586 (23,21 %);
    Kosovo - 22/114 (19,3 %);
    Albania - 33/223 (14,8 %);
    Turkey - 103/737 (13,98 %);
    Dagestan - 89/724 (12,29 %);
    Komis (Perm Oblast) - 7/61 (11,48 %);
    Iran - 116/1303 (8,9 %);
    Cyprus - 50/574 (8,71 %);
    Greece - 29/347 (8,36 %);


    So if these haplogroups are now in high probability of being related at the least to the Indo-Iranian branches of IE, or Andronovo, and possibly related to even older general IE, can we say when these groups reached to Italy?


    Are these groups possibly related to these changes we are seeing in Italy in this paper? I am way less knowledgable on the Italian context so I need a bit more help here to grasp it.

    LINK: http://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.com/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interestingly, the latest data gathered from local dialects and such indicates that Bashkir has both an Indo-Iranian and a Finno-Ugric substrate.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    This E-V13 business is all discussed here.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=Bashkirs

    Maciamo was of the opinion that it was carried east to the Volga.

    I still think it might have been in Cucuteni or somewhere else in one of the more eastern Neolithic communities, and perhaps it was picked up there by "Indo-Europeans" and then spread in various directions. After all, we have precursors for it in the Balkans. That's Maciamo's position, I think.

    Perhaps if we get more samples from Mycenaean Greece we'll find it came down into Greece in that way?

    Or, it might have been in the northern Near East and came across Anatolia and into Europe with the Bronze Age migrations into the Aegean and further west.

    I don't know how easy it will be to figure out the direction of flow even if we find it in Mycenaean Greece.

    As for Italy, however it got to Greece, I always thought it would have spread to Italy from there. I don't know if the phylogeny supports that. I suppose there's an off chance, if it came with the Bronze Age migrations from the east that it came directly to Italy, but I think the bulk of that ancestry came via Greece.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it is interesting to consider Razib Khan's article on the re-population of Italy after the fall of the Roman Empire, by people living in the countryside, discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...etics-revisted

    There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17. The rate of genetic common ancestry between pairs of Italian individuals seems to have been fairly constant for the past 2,500 years, which combined with significant structure within Italy suggests a constant exchange of migrants between coherent subpopulations.

    The implication here is that there’s population structure deeper than the Roman period. When I first saw these results I was surprised. Looking at genome-wide data I was pretty sure that most of the modern Italian population dated to the Roman Republican period, but I was not expecting provincial level substructure. It was like telling me that the Samnites and Umbrians were still with us!


    Original Article: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter




    Perhaps the components from Lazio, and the surrounding areas may have primarily come from the Umbrians. While the ones in Campania and Puglia come from descendants of people like the Samnites. Of course I get around 20% "Balkan", as do my family members. The chart from the model seems to subsume that. But I could attribute that to Greek-like influences, as well as remnants of the Illyrians that lived there.

    I think a re-population of people from the outskirts of other respective regions in the North and other parts of Italy can also be seen in their areas.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ok, so I think its becoming even more clear now. This spike in the Volga is also even happening with more rare clades related to Albanians like PF7562. This reduces the chance even more of this entanglement being a coincidence of only Z2103. I will post maps with the populations that are sourced in them below.

    The population that seems to be responsible for this spike are the Bashkirs! They are listed as having these high readings for Z2103, PF7562, and M269(xL51) unlike other surrounding Turkic groups in the region (this is especially clear for PF7562).

    This is very interesting since linguists and Bashkir scholars, before any DNA evidence seem to have believed that the Bashkir people were originally an
    Indo European speaking people (Indo-Iranian branch). This explains why other surrounding turkic groups dont spike:
    It is very interesting to see that also R1b-PF7562 is involved, and it is conceivable that they and R1b-Z2103 were fugitives from the steppe - either because of 4.2 ka climate change or because of Sintashta-Andronovo-Srubnaya expansion.
    But for E-V13 it's a different story. It's ancestor E-L618 was in Croatian Cardial Ware and it's present distribution suggest expansion from the Balkans. Also it's TMRCA is much later than that of R1b-L23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it is interesting to consider Razib Khan's article on the re-population of Italy after the fall of the Roman Empire, by people living in the countryside, discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...etics-revisted







    Perhaps the components from Lazio, and the surrounding areas may have primarily come from the Umbrians. While the ones in Campania and Puglia come from dependents of people like the Samnites. Of course I get around 20% "Balkan", as do my family members. The chart from the model seems to subsume that. But I could attribute that to Greek-like influences, as well as remnants of the Illyrians that lived there.

    I think a re-population of people from the outskirts of other respective regions in the North and other parts of Italy can also be seen in their areas.

    Samnites, come from sabellics who origins are umbrians .............IIRC sabines are also in this group.
    .

    Messapians, Peucians and Daunian are the same people all originate from the Iapygian tribes

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it is interesting to consider Razib Khan's article on the re-population of Italy after the fall of the Roman Empire, by people living in the countryside, discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...etics-revisted







    Perhaps the components from Lazio, and the surrounding areas may have primarily come from the Umbrians. While the ones in Campania and Puglia come from dependents of people like the Samnites. Of course I get around 20% "Balkan", as do my family members. The chart from the model seems to subsume that. But I could attribute that to Greek-like influences, as well as remnants of the Illyrians that lived there.

    I think a re-population of people from the outskirts of other respective regions in the North and other parts of Italy can also be seen in their areas.

    In that post he relied heavily on the Ralph and Coop paper, as have I, in the sense that it has made me skeptical of the claims of people like Hellenthal, and disreputable figures like the Stormfront and apricity t-rolls that all the additional "Near Eastern" in Southern Italy is a product of the Roman and post-Roman Era. I guess we'll see pretty soon.

    It is rather remarkable how well that old "ethnic" map sort of correlates with the autosomal map posted by these researchers.

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