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Thread: Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what language would the people from the south, coming to northern Italy have spoken?
    Semitic, Greek, something else?
    Etruscan is not completely isolate, like Basque, but still it has very few relatives
    If people believe italians entered Italy from the north-east then they are part of the Danubian culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian_culture
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    I associate Semitic with the expansion of bronze from Anatolia/Mesopotamia. Which IMO would be the first candidate if Etruscan wasn't native to Italy.
    But my guess is, Etruscan was an old neolithic/chalcolithis local laguage, which was adopted by some incoming IE people, which as you suggested may also have happened in Basque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I associate Semitic with the expansion of bronze from Anatolia/Mesopotamia. Which IMO would be the first candidate if Etruscan wasn't native to Italy.
    But my guess is, Etruscan was an old neolithic/chalcolithis local laguage, which was adopted by some incoming IE people, which as you suggested may also have happened in Basque.
    so would you believe this article/study then ?
    http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/Tot...ner_Raetic.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    So the Etruscans colonized themselves, being that the Villanovans are the Etruscans. Villanovan is not the name of a people, it is the name of an Etruscan cultural facies.



    Not true, archaeologically there are differentiations.
    Which ones? They both practiced cremation, burying their dead in funerary "hut" urns, linking them to the Urnfield culture.

    My point is that if the Etruscans did not colonize the Villanovans, then it was the Latial (Italite?) culture that was intrusive.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I want to be in this trash-talking contest, too. The Etruscans were Slovenian!

    "There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians."


    http://www.theslovenian.com/articles/skulj.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    so would you believe this article/study then ?
    http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/Tot...ner_Raetic.pdf
    Mesopotamia yes after Babylon Anatolia no that's unlikely

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    I want to be in this trash-talking contest, too. The Etruscans were Slovenian!

    "There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians."


    http://www.theslovenian.com/articles/skulj.htm
    Is this a joke?
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Is this a joke?
    Does the theory that the Etruscan or the Rhaetic is Semitic seem more serious to you instead?

    The Slovenian theory is a joke just like many other theories about Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    so would you believe this article/study then ?
    http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/Tot...ner_Raetic.pdf
    I don't know, it's a very long story to digest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Does the theory that the Etruscan or the Rhaetic is Semitic seem more serious to you instead?

    The Slovenian theory is a joke just like many other theories about Etruscans.
    I think you've misread something.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I associate Semitic with the expansion of bronze from Anatolia/Mesopotamia. Which IMO would be the first candidate if Etruscan wasn't native to Italy.
    But my guess is, Etruscan was an old neolithic/chalcolithis local laguage, which was adopted by some incoming IE people, which as you suggested may also have happened in Basque.
    So, you're proposing that the Anatolians, or the Aegean peoples, spoke Semitic?

    The genetic signal into Italy is additional "Caucasus". The cultural signal is Greek or Anatolian. The Semites have nothing to do with it. Etruscan, certainly, has nothing to do with Semitic.

    All discussions about the Etruscans go round and round because we have no genetic data. When we get it we'll be able to discuss them more intelligently.

    Perhaps it's best if we get back to what is in this actual paper.


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    Interesting...Beaker Sicily cluster with Sardinians (page 43), this is in line with archaeology...Beaker arrived in Sicily from there

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    How are they invisible? Etruscans are clearly a Bell Beaker derived R1b people who adapted to local languages like Vasconics and Iberians.





    Should be easy enough to confirm when the Etruscan samples all turn out R1b.
    And it's been confirmed by leaks of the upcoming ancient Italy paper:


    Etruscans were R1b and Bell Beaker derived, Romans were like ancient Greeks and the other Balkan IEs.

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    Now this is one study I'm looking forward to! The more samples from Greece and Rome the better! I see most of the Roman samples clustering with South Italians, islanders and Mycenaeans

    Oh and I see some mainland Greeks in that cluster as well, hard to see at first though. When is this paper coming out?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So it's exactly what one would expect considering the archaeological evidence. The position of the Romans relative to the Mycenaeans is interesting, as it indicates that the Proto-Italics either had higher Anatolian ancestry than the Proto-Greeks, or that they absorbed fewer natives than did the Greeks. I'm guessing it's #2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    And it's been confirmed by leaks of the upcoming ancient Italy paper:


    Etruscans were R1b and Bell Beaker derived, Romans were like ancient Greeks and the other Balkan IEs.
    Wow, this is incredible! I overlap with them. I would love to see these samples in an ancient calculator.

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    LEwx4bu.jpg

    Courtesy of Anthrogenetica.

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    Interesting, I would be between those two. Mytrueancestry got it right with Hellenic Roman + Roman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Interesting, I would be between those two. Mytrueancestry got it right with Hellenic Roman + Roman
    I think the guy just made that up. It would imply that the Roman majority was of Greek origin, which is completely untenable of course. Not to mention that the Romans have more Anatolian ancestry than the Myceneaens.

    It's much more likely that those Romans who plotted between the Etruscans and the main Roman cluster had Etruscan ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think the guy just made that up. It would mean that the Roman majority was of Greek origin, which is completely untenable of course.
    I agree, I think that could be the case.

    At any rate, I'm really looking forward to seeing the source of the PCA when it comes out.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    From what I see it looks like central and south Italians are Roman-like, and North Italians are more Etruscan-like.

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    And like always, there will be people in other forums/blogs who will complain and say "this pca is wrong"

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    Delete ....

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    according to the other leak Latium was still EEF in 1700 bc so the Latins arrived in the MBA or more likely in the LBA

    Remedello 3 (2000 bc circa) was still EEF too so the indoeuropeans came in italy likely in the MBA (from Hungary?), i dont think that Parma Bell Beaker had a great impact genetically because the Po Plain was completely repopulated in the early MBA by Poladans and people from Danubian plain

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    Last edited by Cato; 18-05-19 at 18:46.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Are the IA Romans genuine proto-Romans? I doubt it. Rather a mix with Greeks.
    And Villanovia was not the culture of an unique ethny speaking an unique language; things deserves refinings I think. I wonder if some of the first Villanovians were not Umbrian-like tribes; that said, concerning Y-haplo's, the Toscans of today have I think an heavy (ancient) Ligurians input. Only speculations, of course, but a bunch of anDNA of IA is not sufficient to make my mind.

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