Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples
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Angela
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Do you freaking know how to stay on topic and pursue an argument logically?
We're not talking about European attitudes toward unchecked, un-documented mass migration of people without skills and from a non-Western culture coming into Europe.
We're talking about one group of Europeans believing another group of Europeans is inferior and should be "kicked out of Europe", to use his own phrase.
THAT IS RACISM. It exists; nobody made it up, like stupid cultural appropriation at Halloween.
And it's dangerous.
They're condemned out of their own mouths.
Dosas' political beliefs, his attitude toward migration, like mine, are irrelevant to the topic, although I will tell you I'm probably much more conservative than you are.
It's either real or it's not, and I have the screenshots which prove it's real. Why do you think they sent that guy who was a "star" at theapricity to jail? You think it was just because of the classifications they do and their comments about Italians"? They did a hell of a lot more than that, those people.
The only point upon which I would disagree with Dosas is as to whether it's recent or not. I believe this toxic ideology has been around since at least the 1800s in England, the U.S., Germany, Scandinavia, even France.
All you have to do is read a little history to know I'm right; start with Vienna in the early part of the 1900s, for example. It's no mystery where Hitler got his ideas; they were common currency in the cafes and beer joints he frequented. Read about the Dreyfus case. For God's sake, they're still ranting about Jews in Poland and Hungary when there are none left in their countries. It's like a disease. No wonder there are still hidden Jews there. Or, read the opinions of some of those "physical anthropologists" they claim to follow.
As to the Yamnaya, you clearly don't remember the stuff you read on eurogenes. Until the Sandra Wilde and Mathiesen papers came out, the perceived wisdom among all the amateur experts like Polako was that the Yamnaya would turn out to be blonde and blue eyed. Where do you think he got the whole "blonde cowboys of the steppe" thing? Then he turned it to Corded Ware. Unfortunately for him they trundled along behind their cow pulled wagons.
It extended to the Mycenaeans as well. Two weeks before the paper on them came out showing "maybe" 15-18% steppe and a dark southeastern European type phenotype, he was promising that they would be blonde/blue eyed R1a Corded Ware people.
See what happens when you draw conclusions from your agenda instead of the data? More than half the time you wind up looking like a fool.
If the leaks are correct, that whole crew was completely wrong about the Etruscans, and for the same reason.
Now, enough off topic. Get back to genetics.
but i'm not trying to say that all this shit is made up. i just don't care about all of it and you should do that too. the thing is that in the case of italy much of this racism is coming from their own people. certainly not the majority but since you already talked about italian unity, these problems are not caused by outsiders but largely by italians themselves. it wasn't always like this. as you already said it's a relatively new product of inferiority complexes and the lacking will to stand on their own feet without listening to opinions of northern racists, giving them way too much value. all this due to an intoxication with our very own racism. you can't hate an outsider without hating the inside who ressembles them a bit. maybe you even hate yourself because of it.
and it's like that in ever european country with all racists. if you tie nationality or just your preference for the people, with whom you sourround yourself, to ethnicity(genetics not culture) it just doesn't end well.
btw it's not like a greek admiring xerxes, i see no problem there. there is also no problem with italians who like hannibal or why should that be strange?
unless they don't try to steal your history and say it was the yamna elite who made greece to what it was, you are giving it too much value, especially when you find those comments on sites where you found that picture. who cares what others think of you?
they are not you, you are not them. you don't want to be them. they are racists and you aren't.
but look around you. in greece the party golden dawn whose colors are red, white, black and that uses the fascist salute got 7% of votes in european elections. and you are concerned about the rise of the "far-right" in central europe?
you surely didn't vote for them but open your eyes.
Last edited:
halfalp
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Do you freaking know how to stay on topic and pursue an argument logically?
We're not talking about European attitudes toward unchecked, un-documented mass migration of people without skills and from a non-Western culture coming into Europe.
We're talking about one group of Europeans believing another group of Europeans is inferior and should be "kicked out of Europe", to use his own phrase.
THAT IS RACISM. It exists; nobody made it up, like stupid cultural appropriation at Halloween.
And it's dangerous.
They're condemned out of their own mouths.
Dosas' political beliefs, his attitude toward migration, like mine, are irrelevant to the topic, although I will tell you I'm probably much more conservative than you are.
It's either real or it's not, and I have the screenshots which prove it's real. Why do you think they sent that guy who was a "star" at theapricity to jail? You think it was just because of the classifications they do and their comments about Italians"? They did a hell of a lot more than that, those people.
The only point upon which I would disagree with Dosas is as to whether it's recent or not. I believe this toxic ideology has been around since at least the 1800s in England, the U.S., Germany, Scandinavia, even France.
All you have to do is read a little history to know I'm right; start with Vienna in the early part of the 1900s, for example. It's no mystery where Hitler got his ideas; they were common currency in the cafes and beer joints he frequented. Read about the Dreyfus case. For God's sake, they're still ranting about Jews in Poland and Hungary when there are none left in their countries. It's like a disease. No wonder there are still hidden Jews there. Or, read the opinions of some of those "physical anthropologists" they claim to follow.
As to the Yamnaya, you clearly don't remember the stuff you read on eurogenes. Until the Sandra Wilde and Mathiesen papers came out, the perceived wisdom among all the amateur experts like Polako was that the Yamnaya would turn out to be blonde and blue eyed. Where do you think he got the whole "blonde cowboys of the steppe" thing? Then he turned it to Corded Ware. Unfortunately for him they trundled along behind their cow pulled wagons.
It extended to the Mycenaeans as well. Two weeks before the paper on them came out showing "maybe" 15-18% steppe and a dark southeastern European type phenotype, he was promising that they would be blonde/blue eyed R1a Corded Ware people.
See what happens when you draw conclusions from your agenda instead of the data? More than half the time you wind up looking like a fool.
If the leaks are correct, that whole crew was completely wrong about the Etruscans, and for the same reason.
Now, enough off topic. Get back to genetics.
You didn't get what i say, he had two different points 1: Europeans of the real world having issues with Middle-Easterners 2: Europeans of the internet having issues with what an Ubermensch should be.
And i responded to both topics differently.
I literally have no clue about what's happened on Eurogenes before 2015 ( days i joined Eupedia, and first Anthro Forum i joined ever ) and to Apricity. But i was on Apricity some times between then and its really a shit show about who has the best ancestry / country so that's that.
It's just kind like when we talk about supremacism it's always comes as a general topic ( the devil white man / race ). It's start to become annoying to always must read this weight that doesn't concern you, but you are labeled and tied to it. An European must behave, he needs to accept everyone else, he needs to do this, he needs to do that. No free will anymore, apparently some people knows better than yourself what's good for you, yadi yada... At least it's not as cramped as north america, but it's still a weight.
Now we get back on topics.
Angela
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Both of you are being extremely short-sighted imo. People thought the rhetoric Hitler spouted was nonsense too, until people voted him into office and he started implementing policies based on it.
You think you know what's going to happen in Europe in twenty years, or even ten years from now? I don't.
This is dangerous ideology and people who espouse it should be exposed. Plus, if this sort of agenda doesn't make you an impeachable witness or "expert" on population genetics, then I don't know what does.
You think you know what's going to happen in Europe in twenty years, or even ten years from now? I don't.
This is dangerous ideology and people who espouse it should be exposed. Plus, if this sort of agenda doesn't make you an impeachable witness or "expert" on population genetics, then I don't know what does.
Demetrios
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I know this is not related to the topic of the thread, just want to make a couple of quick corrections.
Most of the people that voted for "Golden Dawn" didn't do it because of their ideological affiliations to them, but rather because it was an anti-establishment party that was trending during the years of the economic crisis. "Golden Dawn" has existed since 1985, and registered as a political party since 1993, yet it never managed to get any significant attention until the crisis began. Furthermore, the political party of "Golden Dawn" in the last "2019 European Parliament" (26th May) and "2019 National" (7th July) elections achieved a percentage of 4.87% and 2.93% respectively. So, "Golden Dawn" didn't enter the new parliament, as a result of failing to cross the minimum barrier of 3%. The party is essentially finished, not only because of these unexpected results, but also because after the results many of the leading MPs separated themselves from the party, such as Ioannis Lagos, Panagiotis Iliopoulos, etc.. And when it comes to the aforementioned elections, you also have to take into account the considerable abstention of the Greek people, which approximates 45% of the total voters, therefore to get a realistic view, divide 4.87% and 2.93% by two and you will get an even more representative result. Instead, many former "Golden Dawn" voters have voted for other conservative parties, such as the new "Greek Solution (Elliniki Lisi)" and the much older "New Democracy" parties, with the latter winning the elections with an outright majority. As for my personal political views, i am myself a conservative but didn't vote for any party, similar to many other Greeks who feel that our political system and that of much of the world, is inherently corrupt and oligarchic in nature, not a real democracy, in addition to the reality that our own political scene remains a fossil of the same older politicians. Some have moved to other parties, some have created new ones, whiles others have remained steadfastly in the same. In any case, a political stagnation.
Last, what you term "Fascist" salute is essentially the "Roman" salute, and you don't have to be a "Fascist" in order to do it. In the case of "Golden Dawn" it was and is used as a tribute to Ioannis Metaxas and his "4th of August Regime" which led Greece against the foreign occupation forces in WWII, including Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. That's how the "4th of August Regime" also saluted. Although it is true that "Golden Dawn", especially in the early years admired "National Socialism" and even praised Hitler ideologically, but not completely. Don't forget that "Golden Dawn" and its nationalist ideology descends from the same people that fought Hitler, and even them despise what is seen in certain far-right groups of Europe, where they term Italians and Greeks as non-Europeans, despite the fact that their autosomal profiles are closer to the ones of the Neolithic Europeans.
Angela
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In a relatively recent Boattini paper on str mutation rates, they used ydna from Emilia Romagna and the Veneto.
This is what they found:
I'm pretty sure the R1a-M458 is from the Veneto, probably just relatively recent spill over from the east. The R1b seems to be about 60%, which seems about right because I don't think they were looking at highly drifted areas. The E-V13 is lower than I thought, and so is the J2a, almost non-existent. The J2b certainly shows up, though. The "T" is a decent number. I wonder with which Neolithic wave it arrived.
See:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45398-3
This is what they found:
I'm pretty sure the R1a-M458 is from the Veneto, probably just relatively recent spill over from the east. The R1b seems to be about 60%, which seems about right because I don't think they were looking at highly drifted areas. The E-V13 is lower than I thought, and so is the J2a, almost non-existent. The J2b certainly shows up, though. The "T" is a decent number. I wonder with which Neolithic wave it arrived.
See:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45398-3
torzio
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LT-P326 is very old ....circa 45000 years old
I am surprised no L ydna appeared even though L and T ydna appear in ancient Tyrol lands
Population Isolates in South Tyrol and Their Value for Genetic Dissection of Complex Diseases
F. Marroni
I. Pichler
First published: 24 March 2006
Date is before L and T appear in 2008....they are designated K at the time
https://www.yfull.com/tree/LT/
I am surprised no L ydna appeared even though L and T ydna appear in ancient Tyrol lands
Population Isolates in South Tyrol and Their Value for Genetic Dissection of Complex Diseases
F. Marroni
I. Pichler
First published: 24 March 2006
Date is before L and T appear in 2008....they are designated K at the time
https://www.yfull.com/tree/LT/
Regio X
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No L-M20? I'd expect some. At least in Treviso province it'd be between 5 and 10%, if I'm not mistaken, which is pretty curious.
I couldn't read the study, as always. Does it distinguish numbers for Veneto and Emilia? 23andMe informs abt. 12% of G-M201 for NE Italy (based on its database, I presume), similar to Ethnopedia's, so, given the average above, Emilia Romagna must have significantly less G in comparison, which I guess it's also in line with Ethnopedia's.
ED: torzio, we thought the same.
I couldn't read the study, as always.
Does it distinguish numbers for Veneto and Emilia? 23andMe informs abt. 12% of G-M201 for NE Italy (based on its database, I presume), similar to Ethnopedia's, so, given the average above, Emilia Romagna must have significantly less G in comparison, which I guess it's also in line with Ethnopedia's.ED: torzio, we thought the same.
Angela
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No L-M20? I'd expect some. At least in Treviso province it'd be between 5 and 10%, if I'm not mistaken, which is pretty curious.
I couldn't read the study, as always.
ED: torzio, we thought the same.
View attachment 11363
Well, isolates with their exaggerated drift are hardly good sources of either uniparental or autosomal inheritance, or it just may be where the samples were collected. For Emilia-Romagna I think it might have been around Bologna that Boattini et al collect samples, if I remember correctly. I think there might be even more R1b further west.
I found a table in the Supplement (SI) with the typed snps.
Hopefully you guys can access this one, or I'll try to copy it for you. I see one M20, but not L-M20
https://static-content.springer.com.../MediaObjects/41598_2019_45398_MOESM1_ESM.pdf
torzio
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I cannot recall the L-m20 in treviso province....i do recall in the friulian alpsNo L-M20? I'd expect some. At least in Treviso province it'd be between 5 and 10%, if I'm not mistaken, which is pretty curious.
I couldn't read the study, as always.
ED: torzio, we thought the same.
View attachment 11363
The samples apparently came from venezia province and ravenna , rimini coastal romangna areas......i need to revisit
Regio X
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@Angela @torzio
M20 is a SNP that represents haplogroup L-M20, yes, so that one M20 must be actually L-M20
But never mind. I just checked, and indeed the supposed high number of L-M20 in Treviso is based on Boattini's study. But those are relatively few samples tested, and perhaps from the city of Treviso only, so...
M20 is a SNP that represents haplogroup L-M20, yes, so that one M20 must be actually L-M20
But never mind. I just checked, and indeed the supposed high number of L-M20 in Treviso is based on Boattini's study. But those are relatively few samples tested, and perhaps from the city of Treviso only, so...
Angela
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Yeah, percentages are going to switch dramatically when you go from a few samples to 166 of them.
Again, interesting how little J2a is present.
Has anyone taken a look at the J1 snps? I'm not an expert in this, but they don't seem to be the "Jewish" clades, do they? Nor the North African ones from what I can tell. One seems to how up in Great Britain of all places. I'll certainly yield to people who are more expert in this, however.
Polska
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Looking forward to the eventual release of the paper (can’t believe there are 28 pages worth of posts regarding a paper that is yet to be released). In my case, I come from a Polish family with a well established history in Poland dating back over 1,000 years, but it’s rumored that our Y line (J2b2 L283 PH1602) may have come from Italy. Curious if any PH1602 pops up.
Regio X
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I'd expect more J2a as well, but most of Js are J2b after all.
As for J1s, I'm affraid they haven't tested that deep, so it's not possible to determine whether some J1 samples belong to the the "Jewish" clades etc.
Using the PDF you shared and ISOGG tree...
L1086......A00
L1085......A0-T
V148.......A0
V168.......A1
M31........A1a
P108.......A1b
L419.......A1b1
V50........A1b1a
M32........A1b1b
V42........E1b1b1b2b3b
M168.......CT
P257.......G
M174.......D
M91........BT
P97........BT
M42........BT
M203.......DE
M213.......F
M45........P1 or K2b2a
M181.......B
M216.......C
M9.........K
M215.......E1b1b
M35........********** not found **********
M78........E1b1b1a1
M81........E1b1b1b1a
M123.......E1b1b1b2a1
V6.........E1b1b1b2b3a
V6.........E1b1b1c
P72........E1b1b1b2b1
M224.......E1b1b1a1a1a
M136.......E1b1b1b2a1a1a1a1c
V12........E1b1b1a1a1
V22........E1b1b1a1b2
V65........E1b1b1a1a2
M34........E1b1b1b2a1a
P15........G2a
P16........********** not found **********
P18........********** not found **********
M286.......G2a2a1a1a1
U8.........G2a2b
U16........G2a2b1a1a
U1.........G2a2b2a1a1a
U13........G2a2b2a1a1a1
M377.......G2b1
M253.......I1
M21........I (Notes)
M227.......I1a1a1a1a
P109.......I1a1b1a1
P259.......I (Notes)
M72........I1a1a1a1a2a1
P215.......I2
P37.2......I2a1a
M359.......********** not found **********
M26........I2a1a1a
M161.......I (Notes)
M161.......I2a1a1a1a1a1a1e6a5
M223.......I2a1b1
M284.......I2a1b1a1a
M379.......I (Notes)
P78........I2a1b1a2a1
P95........I2a1b1a2b1a1a1a1
M267.......J1
M62........J (Notes)
M365.......********** not found **********
M390.......J (Notes)
P56........J1a2a1a1a
P58........J1a2a1a2
M367.......********** not found **********
M369.......J (Notes)
M172.......J2
M410.......J2a
M47........J2a1a1a2a2b
M67........J2a1a1a2b2
M68........J2a1a2b2a2a2
M137.......J2a1a4b1a1a
M158.......********** not found **********
M289.......J (Notes)
M318.......J2a1a1b2a1b1b2b1
M319.......J2a1a1a2b1b
M339.......J2a1a3
M340.......J2a2a1a1a2b1
M419.......J2a1a1b1a1a1a1
P81........J2a1a1a2a2a2
P279.......J2a2a1a1a2
M92........J2a1a1a2b2a1a
M327.......J (Notes)
M166.......J2a1a1a2b2a2b1b2
M12........J2b
M205.......J2b1
M241.......J2b2a
M99........J (Notes)
M280.......J (Notes)
M321.......J (Notes)
P84........********** not found **********
M20........L
M20........L or K1a
M27........L1a1
M317.......L1b
M357.......L1a2
M242.......Q
P36.2......********** not found **********
MEH2.......********** not found **********
M378.......Q2a1
SRY10831.2.R1a1
M17........R1a1a
M56........R (Notes)
M157.......********** not found **********
M287.......G (Notes)
P98........R (Notes)
PK5........R (Notes)
M343.......R1b
P25........********** not found **********
M18........R1b1b1
P297.......R1b1a1
M335.......R1b2a
M73........R1b1a1a
M269.......R1b1a1b
P310.......R1b1a1b1a1
U106.......R1b1a1b1a1a1
P312.......R1b1a1b1a1a2
M37........********** not found **********
M65........********** not found **********
M153.......R1b1a1b1a1a2a1a1a1a1
SRY2627....R1b1a1b1a1a2a1b1a1
M222.......R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a1a1a1
U152.......R1b1a1b1a1a2b
P66........********** not found **********
M160.......********** not found **********
M70........T1a
L208.......T1a1a
M320.......T (Notes)
P77........T1a1a1b2b2b1a
Z18........R1b1a1b1a1a1b
Z381.......R1b1a1b1a1a1c
L48........R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b
U198.......R1b1a1b1a1a1c2a1
Z195.......R1b1a1b1a1a2a1
M529.......R1b1a1b1a1a2c1
L2.........R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
L20........R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a1
M60........B
M145.......DE
M145.......DE
M147.......K2e
M96........E
M89........F
M282.......H2
M69........H1a
M522.......IJK
M258.......I
M304.......J
M526.......K2
P308.......S1a1a1
P79........S1a2
P261.......K2c
P256.......M or K2b1b
M231.......N
M231.......N or K2a1a
M175.......O
M175.......Oor K2a1b
P202.......S1a1b
P326.......LT or K1
P326.......LT [K1]
M412.......R1b1a1b1a
L11........R1b1a1b1a1a
M124.......R2a
M173.......R1
M207.......R
M281.......E1b1b2
M516.......R1a1
M479.......R2
V13........E1b1b1a1b1a
According to this old paper, the highest STR diversity of J1-P58 would be found in Zagros/Taurus mountain region:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/
Some insights from Maciamo:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml#J1-P58
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml#Arabic
Angela
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Are you sure, Regio? They picked up no "A" at all according to the list.
Regio X
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Sure. I built the list via software. Those are the SNPs listed in the PDF you shared. You can check some of them either in ISOGG or in YFull.
L1086 (A00), for example... Access https://www.yfull.com/tree/A00/ , click on +2913 SNPs, Ctrl F, L1086, and find it.
V50... Access https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-L602/ , click on +1000 SNPs, CTrl F, V50, and find it.
And so on.
ED: I added links in my previous message.
Angela
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Then maybe those are what they checked, not what they found? This is what they found:
If the ones checked don't appear on this list then they didn't find them, I guess.
The G2a-U8 is also interesting.
"G2a2b (L30, PF3267, S126, U8)[edit]
G-L30 (also G-PF3267, G-S126 or G-U8; G2a2b, previously G2a3) Men who belong to this group but are negative for all its subclades represent a small number today. This haplogroup was found in a Neolithic skeleton from around 5000 BC, in the cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, Germany, which forms part of the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK),[10] but was not tested for G2a3 subclades."
I wonder if finer resolution is possible. They only checked these downstream:
U16..... G2a2b1a1a
U1...... G2a2b2a1a1a
U13..... G2a2b2a1a1a1
If this is how we're meant to interpret the chart, then they only checked these J1?
M267.... J1
M62..... J (Notes)
M365.... ********** not found **********
M390.... J (Notes)
P56..... J1a2a1a1a
P58..... J1a2a1a2
If the ones checked don't appear on this list then they didn't find them, I guess.
The G2a-U8 is also interesting.
"G2a2b (L30, PF3267, S126, U8)[edit]
G-L30 (also G-PF3267, G-S126 or G-U8; G2a2b, previously G2a3) Men who belong to this group but are negative for all its subclades represent a small number today. This haplogroup was found in a Neolithic skeleton from around 5000 BC, in the cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, Germany, which forms part of the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK),[10] but was not tested for G2a3 subclades."
I wonder if finer resolution is possible. They only checked these downstream:
U16..... G2a2b1a1a
U1...... G2a2b2a1a1a
U13..... G2a2b2a1a1a1
If this is how we're meant to interpret the chart, then they only checked these J1?
M267.... J1
M62..... J (Notes)
M365.... ********** not found **********
M390.... J (Notes)
P56..... J1a2a1a1a
P58..... J1a2a1a2
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G-U8 is merely G-L30, i.e., too old (ancestral to G-U1 itself, G-L497, G-M406...). https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L30/ So the G2a-U1 in the list is also G-U8, while G-U8 in there must mean G-U8 (xU1).Then maybe those are what they checked, not what they found? This is what they found:
If the ones checked don't appear on this list then they didn't find them, I guess.
The G2a-U8 is also interesting.
"G2a2b (L30, PF3267, S126, U8)[edit]
G-L30 (also G-PF3267, G-S126 or G-U8; G2a2b, previously G2a3) Men who belong to this group but are negative for all its subclades represent a small number today. This haplogroup was found in a Neolithic skeleton from around 5000 BC, in the cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, Germany, which forms part of the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK),[10] but was not tested for G2a3 subclades."
I wonder if finer resolution is possible. They only checked these downstream:
U16..... G2a2b1a1a
U1...... G2a2b2a1a1a
U13..... G2a2b2a1a1a1
If this is how we're meant to interpret the chart, then they only checked these J1?
M267.... J1
M62..... J (Notes)
M365.... ********** not found **********
M390.... J (Notes)
P56..... J1a2a1a1a
P58..... J1a2a1a2
As for J1s, the problem is that some SNPs in the study are not used by ISOGG anymore, but they could be informative. I'll check them again.
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Apparently the M367 corresponds to M368: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#J-M368
Also, some SNPs labeled as J (Notes) must be SNPs used much time ago that are not used anymore. The notes can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...3KUy0uT3ranaqE7N-nuqpAX-E/edit#gid=1603190133
Some of them belonged to J1, and could perhaps be informative: M62 (downstream J1-L236), and M390, M367 and M369 (all three below J1-P58).
I wonder if the study includes STR markers.
Also, some SNPs labeled as J (Notes) must be SNPs used much time ago that are not used anymore. The notes can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...3KUy0uT3ranaqE7N-nuqpAX-E/edit#gid=1603190133
Some of them belonged to J1, and could perhaps be informative: M62 (downstream J1-L236), and M390, M367 and M369 (all three below J1-P58).
I wonder if the study includes STR markers.
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