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    6 out of 7 members found this post helpful.

    Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

    See:

    A. Raveane et al: (Capelli, Simone, all the old stalwarts, and Hellenthal, never a good sign imo)

    "Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient2 and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...94898.full.pdf

    They're only using the already published ancient samples, nothing new, so this is not the paper we've been awaiting. Lots of conjecture as well.


    "In doing101 so, we assembled and analyzed a comprehensive genome-wide SNP dataset composed by 1,616102 individuals from all the 20 Italian administrative regions and more than 140 worldwide reference103 populations, for a total of 5,192 modern-day samples (fig. S1, table S1), to which we added104 genomic data available for ancient individuals (data file S1)."

    The following we knew:

    "Clusters within Italy were significantly more different from each other132 than within any other country here included (median Italy: 0.004, data file S3; range medians for133 listed countries 0.0001-0.002) and showed differences comparable with estimates across European134 clusters (median European clusters: 0.004, Fig. 1D, see Materials and Methods, Supplementary135 materials). The analysis of the migration surfaces (EEMS) (17) highlighted several barriers to gene136 flow within and around Italy but also suggested the existence of migration corridors in the southern137 part of the Adriatic and Ionian Sea, and between Sardinia, Corsica and continental Italy."

    The methodology is different. This is what they came up with...

    "In the Ultimate analysis, all the Italian clusters were characterised by relatively high amounts of Anatolian Neolithic (AN), ranging between 56% (SItaly1) and 72% (NItaly4),152 distributed along a North-South cline (Spearman ρ = 0.52, p-value < 0.05; Fig. 2A-C, fig. S8A),153 with Sardinians showing values above 80%. A closer affinity of Northern Italian than Southern Italian clusters to AN was also supported by D-statistics (fig. S10). The remaining ancestry was155 mainly assigned to WHG (Western Hunter-Gatherer), CHG and EHG. In particular, the first two156 components were more present in populations from the South (higher estimates in SItaly1 ~13%157 and SItaly3 ~ 24% for WHG and CHG respectively), while the latter was more common in Northern158 clusters (NItaly6 = 15%)....Iran Neolithic (IN) ancestry was161 detected in Europe only in Southern Italy."

    Some of the above seems pretty counter-intuitive.

    "
    When Proximate163 sources were evaluated, SBA contribution ranged between 33% in the North and 6% in the South164 of Italy, while ABA (Anatolia Bronze Age) showed an opposite distribution (Fig. 2D-F, fig. S9), in165 line with the results based on the D statistics (fig. S10, fig. S11), and mirroring the EHG and CHG166 patterns, respectively...When Proximate163 sources were evaluated, SBA contribution ranged between 33% in the North and 6% in the South164 of Italy, while ABA (Anatolia Bronze Age) showed an opposite distribution (Fig. 2D-F, fig. S9), in165 line with the results based on the D statistics (fig. S10, fig. S11), and mirroring the EHG and CHG166 patterns, respectively."

    "When Proximate163 sources were evaluated, SBA contribution ranged between 33% in the North and 6% in the South164 of Italy, while ABA (Anatolia Bronze Age) showed an opposite distribution (Fig. 2D-F, fig. S9), in165 line with the results based on the D statistics (fig. S10, fig. S11), and mirroring the EHG and CHG166 patterns, respectively."

    "Nevertheless, all the197 analysed clusters, could be modelled as a combination of ABA, SBA and European Middle198 Neolithic/Chalcolithic, their contributions mirroring the pattern observed in the CP/NNLS analysis199 (fig. S15, table S3, table S4). North African contributions, ranging between 3.8% (SCItaly1) to200 14.5% (SItaly1) became evident when combinations of five sources were tested."

    I expected a maximum of 10%. We'll see what Svaabo and Reich have to say when their paper comes out.

    "Iceman and Remedello, the oldest Italian samples here included (3,400-2,800 BCE, Before Current207 Era), were composed by high proportions of AN (74 and 85%, respectively). The Bell Beaker208 samples of Northern Italy (2,200-1,930 BCE) were modelled as ABA and AN + SBA and WHG,209 although ABA was characterised by large standard errors but the detection of Steppe ancestry, at210 14%, was more robust. On the other hand Bell Beaker samples from Sicily (2,500-1,900 BCE) were211 modelled almost exclusively as ABA, with less than 5% SBA."

    I'm not quite sure what the following means:
    "Clusters from Caucasus and North-West Europe were identified all across Italy as best231 proxies for the admixing sources, while Middle Eastern and African clusters were identified as best232 proxies only in Southern Italian clusters and Sardinia (Fig. 3B, C). We noted that when we extended233 the search for the best-proxies to include also Italian clusters, these were as good as or better proxies234 than clusters from the Caucasus and the Middle East."

    As to CHG..."This signature is still uncharacterised in terms of precise dates and origin; however305 such ancestry was possibly already present during the Bronze Age in Southern Italy (table S5) and306 was further supplemented by historical events (Fig. 3)"

    "The very low presence of CHG signatures in Sardinia and in older Italian samples (Remedello and308 Iceman) but the occurrence in modern-day Southern Italians might be explained by different309 scenarios, not mutually exclusive: 1) population structure among early foraging groups across Italy,310 reflecting different affinities to CHG; 2) the presence in Italy of different Neolithic contributions,311 characterised by different proportion of CHG-related ancestry; 3) the combination of a post312 Neolithic, prehistoric CHG-enriched contribution with a previous AN-related Neolithic layer; 4) A313 substantial historical contribution from Southern East Europe across the whole of Southern Italy."

    "An arrival315 of the CHG-related component in Southern Italy from the Southern part of the Balkan Peninsula is316 compatible with the identification of genetic corridors linking the two regions (Figure 1E, (11)) and317 the presence of Southern European ancient signatures in Italy (Figure 2). The temporal appearance318 of CHG signatures in Anatolia and Southern East Europe in the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age suggests319 its relevance for post-Neolithic contributions (37). Additional analyses of aDNA samples from320 around this time in Italy are expected to clarify what scenario might be best supported."


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    I think this is a very good paper at least as far as data is concerned. The regional structure is very detailed. It also shows that the Bronze Age migration from Anatolia was a very important factor in the formative process of present Europeans.

    The models on page 30 of the paper seem to confirm my suspicion that Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry in Italy is higher than in Greece and the Western Balkans

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Tuscany is considered as part of the Northern macroarea with Emilia and the rest of northern Italy, but how do they write in 2018 that Emilia is a central region? Emilia is a northern region to all effects.



    "Macro-areas are separated in Northern and Southern, where the central regions of Tuscany and Emilia are considered as part of the Northern macroarea and Latium, Abruzzo, Marche and Sardinia were considered as part of the Southern macro-area."





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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Tuscany is considered as part of the Northern macroarea with Emilia and the rest of northern Italy, but how do they write in 2018 that Emilia is a central region? Emilia is a northern region to all effects.



    "Macro-areas are separated in Northern and Southern, where the central regions of Tuscany and Emilia are considered as part of the Northern macroarea and Latium, Abruzzo, Marche and Sardinia were considered as part of the Southern macro-area."




    Yeah, it's belied by their own analysis. Emilia Romagna is clearly distinct from Toscana and both are distinct from Umbria etc. With this group if they said it once they're going to keep saying it just not to admit they were wrong. :)

    [IMG]



    I'm finding it difficult to understand the graphics completely without a key as to the name of the specific clusters. I'd like to know for sure which areas they're assigning to Central Italy, for example, and which one is Toscana. Also, look at this, for example. I'm assuming the "Western European" areas with the North African and the Anatolian Bronze Age are on the Iberian peninsula, but it would be nice to know. It must be in the Supplementary Material, but I don't find a link to it. Did I miss it?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yeah, it's belied by their own analysis. Emilia Romagna is clearly distinct from Toscana and both are distinct from Umbria etc. With this group if they said it once they're going to keep saying it just not to admit they were wrong. :)






    They are only speaking of Emilia, not of Romagna. I don't think it's an oversight in this case.

    Those colours weren't chosen by them? Those colours in the PCA on the right seem to be chosen to distinguish the various inter-regional samples that form clusters. Dark green for example is used for Ligurians and Emilians at to some extent also for a minority of individuals from Piedmont and Veneto, pink is used for Tuscans (two or even three different degrees of pink), and purple is for individuals from Marche, Umbria and Lazio. Between those in dark green and those in pink there is some overlap, while those in purple (which corresponds to Central Italian dialects called "Mediani") remain separated and compact.



    If the PCA is rotated then you have almost the silhouette of Italy




    This too is nothing new, in Italy there is a genetic cline everywhere, and also follows the languages and the geography of Italy which is narrow and long with few plains. It was shown for the first time by Barbujani and Sokal over 30 years ago, with their studies on the genetic structure of Italians and linguistic boundaries. In fact Tuscan language despite is considered a Central Italial language is not part of the Mediani family group, but constitutes a linguistic family of its own.

    Barbujani, G., & Sokal, R. R. (1991). Genetic Population Structure of Italy. II. Physical and Cultural Barriers to Gene Flow. American Journal of Human Genetics, 48, 398-411.



    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1683007/



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm finding it difficult to understand the graphics completely without a key as to the name of the specific clusters. I'd like to know for sure which areas they're assigning to Central Italy, for example, and which one is Toscana. Also, look at this, for example. I'm assuming the "Western European" areas with the North African and the Anatolian Bronze Age are on the Iberian peninsula, but it would be nice to know. It must be in the Supplementary Material, but I don't find a link to it. Did I miss it?
    It is not very clear, but Tuscans are separated from the rest of central Italians because they formed a separate cluster according to the paper, and Tuscans are with some of the groups of northern Italy labelled as NCItaly, while people from Marche and Lazio with the groups labelled as SCItaly. This division corresponds in the various PCA. Instead of dividing the peninsula into three as is usually done (north, center and south) this time have divided it into two (north and south).

    I would also like to find some more detailed information on the samples used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    They are only speaking of Emilia, not of Romagna. I don't think it's an oversight in this case.

    Those colours weren't chosen by them? Those colours in the PCA on the right seem to be chosen to distinguish the various inter-regional samples that form clusters. Dark green for example is used for Ligurians and Emilians at to some extent also for a minority of individuals from Piedmont and Veneto, pink is used for Tuscans (two or even three different degrees of pink), and purple is for individuals from Marche, Umbria and Lazio. Between those in dark green and those in pink there is some overlap, while those in purple (which corresponds to Central Italian dialects called "Mediani") remain separated and compact.



    If the PCA is rotated then you have almost the silhouette of Italy




    This too is nothing new, in Italy there is a genetic cline everywhere, and also follows the languages and the geography of Italy which is narrow and long with few plains. It was shown for the first time by Barbujani and Sokal over 30 years ago, with their studies on the genetic structure of Italians and linguistic boundaries. In fact Tuscan language despite is considered a Central Italial language is not part of the Mediani family group, but constitutes a linguistic family of its own.

    Barbujani, G., & Sokal, R. R. (1991). Genetic Population Structure of Italy. II. Physical and Cultural Barriers to Gene Flow. American Journal of Human Genetics, 48, 398-411.



    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1683007/





    It is not very clear, but Tuscans are separated from the rest of central Italians because they formed a separate cluster according to the paper, and Tuscans are with some of the groups of northern Italy labelled as NCItaly, while people from Marche and Lazio with the groups labelled as SCItaly. This division corresponds in the various PCA. Instead of dividing the peninsula into three as is usually done (north, center and south) this time have divided it into two (north and south).

    I would also like to find some more detailed information on the samples used.
    The Emilia on the map represents all of emilia-romagna.....the map indicates the 20 regions of Italy
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Emilia on the map represents all of emilia-romagna.....the map indicates the 20 regions of Italy
    Yes, but most likely the samples are only from Emilia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    They are only speaking of Emilia, not of Romagna. I don't think it's an oversight in this case.

    Those colours weren't chosen by them? Those colours in the PCA on the right seem to be chosen to distinguish the various inter-regional samples that form clusters. Dark green for example is used for Ligurians and Emilians at to some extent also for a minority of individuals from Piedmont and Veneto, pink is used for Tuscans (two or even three different degrees of pink), and purple is for individuals from Marche, Umbria and Lazio. Between those in dark green and those in pink there is some overlap, while those in purple (which corresponds to Central Italian dialects called "Mediani") remain separated and compact.



    If the PCA is rotated then you have almost the silhouette of Italy




    This too is nothing new, in Italy there is a genetic cline everywhere, and also follows the languages and the geography of Italy which is narrow and long with few plains. It was shown for the first time by Barbujani and Sokal over 30 years ago, with their studies on the genetic structure of Italians and linguistic boundaries. In fact Tuscan language despite is considered a Central Italial language is not part of the Mediani family group, but constitutes a linguistic family of its own.

    Barbujani, G., & Sokal, R. R. (1991). Genetic Population Structure of Italy. II. Physical and Cultural Barriers to Gene Flow. American Journal of Human Genetics, 48, 398-411.



    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1683007/





    It is not very clear, but Tuscans are separated from the rest of central Italians because they formed a separate cluster according to the paper, and Tuscans are with some of the groups of northern Italy labelled as NCItaly, while people from Marche and Lazio with the groups labelled as SCItaly. This division corresponds in the various PCA. Instead of dividing the peninsula into three as is usually done (north, center and south) this time have divided it into two (north and south).

    I would also like to find some more detailed information on the samples used.
    If NCItaly 3 is Toscana, it has less "Caucasus" than Greece, and less than Spain. Also, it has a lot less than southern Italy, of course. Someone should e-mail them and ask them to link the Supplementary Info. You can't critique the paper without it, and especially not without a key to the areas.

    @Olympic Mons,
    Indeed, and this from the man who did nothing but trash Eurogenes on his own site and everywhere else, and all the people at anthrogenica likewise, and me on this one? You are delusional.

    If you indeed don't know that Polako/Davidski on other sites (as well as Generalissimo...now there's a dead give away) is Eurogenes, and that Sikeliot has had many "names", including Portuguese Princess on theapricity (which he ruined, not that I shed tears over it) and that many of the posters on anthrogenica are his "socks", then that might partly explain your inability to put two and two together. You just haven't been in this "hobby" for long enough, which is also why you think you were the first to entertain certain ideas.
    Last edited by Angela; 14-12-18 at 19:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    They're only using the already published ancient samples, nothing new, so this is not the paper we've been awaiting. Lots of conjecture as well.
    Indeed. Nothing new.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    How did Caucasus populations get that much Mycenaean? Why is Mycenaean so minuscule in the Balkans and SE Europe (Mycenaean is the light blue)? And wasn't Iran Neolithic found in the Greeks/Balkans as well (they said only in south Italy whereas other papers found it in the greeks and Balkans)?

    A bit confused here...
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    How did Caucasus populations get that much Mycenaean? Why is Mycenaean so minuscule in the Balkans and SE Europe (Mycenaean is the light blue)? And wasn't Iran Neolithic found in the Greeks/Balkans as well (they said only in south Italy whereas other papers found it in the greeks and Balkans)?

    A bit confused here...
    Peloponnese Neolithic (Green) ate it all up. If you wanted to see the amount of Mycenaean in Southern Italy for example you would have to remove Minoan and PN. Too much overlap.

    As for the IN, somebody should do a Venn diagram for these people (and not just these people) of CHG and IN.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Peloponnese Neolithic (Green) ate it all up. If you wanted to see the amount of Mycenaean in Southern Italy for example you would have to remove Minoan and PN. Too much overlap.

    As for the IN, somebody should do a Venn diagram for these people (and not just these people) of CHG and IN.

    Thank you. Btw they could've labeled things a bit better, I mean how useful are labels like sItaly1, sItaky2, etc? Not very.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I just absolutely love how the usual suspects now claim that all they ever proposed is that any additional migration from the Near East into Italy was post Neolithic, when there are thousands upon thousands of quotes from them saying it was all historic era or first millennium BC at the earliest. In the digital age when every post can be saved, this kind of lying just doesn't work anymore.

    As for Polako and his snide titles for threads I'm glad he finds a paper which posits such weird admixtures is well done. There's only 30% steppe in NW Europe according to some analyses? No CHG. Oh wait, I see why it meets with his approval. Some Eastern European populations, like the Poles, do get close to 50%.

    Can anyone say "predictable"?

    To Ruderico: Sorry, you're incorrect. Parts of Spain have as much Anatolia Bronze Age as Central Italy, and more than parts of Northern Italy.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just absolutely love how the usual suspects now claim that all they ever proposed is that any additional migration from the Near East into Italy was post Neolithic, when there are thousands upon thousands of quotes from them saying it was all historic era or first millennium BC at the earliest. In the digital age when every post can be saved, this kind of lying just doesn't work anymore.

    As for Polako and his snide titles for threads I'm glad he finds a paper which posits such weird admixtures is well done. There's only 30% steppe in NW Europe according to some analyses? No CHG. Oh wait, I see why it meets with his approval. Some Eastern European populations, like the Poles, do get close to 50%.

    Can anyone say "predictable"?

    To Ruderico: Sorry, you're incorrect. Parts of Spain have as much Anatolia Bronze Age as Central Italy, and more than parts of Northern Italy.
    Is Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry considered a bad thing?

    Those populations were the most advanced of their time.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Is Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry considered a bad thing?

    Those populations were the most advanced of their time.
    It's a bad thing for Nordicists. Where do you think that snide comment of Polako's comes from? Why do you think he's so obsessed with placing CHG north of the Caucasus? Why do you think he can't bear to acknowledge that CHG and Iran Neo are like 95%? similar? If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a duck. :)

    What I particularly object to is the Sikeliot/Portuguese Princesses of the world (plus his socks and minions) who now try to get cover for their racism by claiming other people are racist for just wanting to get the facts straight. I guess all those thousands of posts by him trying desperately to keep that "tainted" blood away from his Iberian ancestors are supposed to be forgotten.

    It certainly doesn't apply to me. My favorite ancient civilization is the Minoans, as I've been saying since I first started exploring this discipline. I'd love to be related to them, even if it's at lower levels than that of the Southern Italians. My next favorite is the Etruscans.

    I'm probably too old to be so upset by dishonesty and hypocrisy, but I can't help it. :) I've been like this since I was a child. I abhor dishonestly and even more, hypocrisy. It makes my skin crawl. It's undoubtedly why I chose my profession.

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's a bad thing for Nordicists. Where do you think that snide comment of Polako's comes from? Why do you think he's so obsessed with placing CHG north of the Caucasus? Why do you think he can't bear to acknowledge that CHG and Iran Neo are like 95%? similar? If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a duck. :)

    What I particularly object to is the Sikeliot/Portuguese Princesses of the world (plus his socks and minions) who now try to get cover for their racism by claiming other people are racist for just wanting to get the facts straight. I guess all those thousands of posts by him trying desperately to keep that "tainted" blood away from his Iberian ancestors are supposed to be forgotten.

    It certainly doesn't apply to me. My favorite ancient civilization is the Minoans, as I've been saying since I first started exploring this discipline. I'd love to be related to them, even if it's at lower levels than that of the Southern Italians. My next favorite is the Etruscans.

    I'm probably too old to be so upset by dishonesty and hypocrisy, but I can't help it. :) I've been like this since I was a child. I abhor dishonestly and even more, hypocrisy. It makes my skin crawl. It's undoubtedly why I chose my profession.
    I do not know any of the people you are bashing, but you are bashing on... people. ... Who gives you that right when you penalize people here for far less than you just did. I truly don't get it.
    From Shulaveri Shomu to Bell Beakers
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    the map of Italy, the one noted B is split into the 20 regions of Italy...........are the numbers for this map written on another sheet?

    .
    so looking at veneto on the map, it is only green and Beige, with Beige representing NW Europe and Green ?

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    Actually I think a better explanation for the fact that outlier Sicilians with elevated North African ancestry also have what looks to be 3 times as much steppe ancestry as 'baseline southern Italians' might be the well-recorded fact that the Muslim soldiers stationed in these regions were in large parts of Saqaliba (Slavic) derivation.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, as we've been saying for a long time, there's less diversity in the south than in the north.

    @Markod,
    Do you have any estimates for the percentages compared to "regular" Muslim forces? Do you remember where you saw the discussions? I don't remember it from Chiarelli's Muslim Sicily, but I read it a long time ago. You've piqued my interest. :)

    There's also the fact, however, that most of the Muslim "soldiers" who remained after the expulsions were sent to Bari. I remember speculation that this accounted for some of the North African and Near Eastern ydna there.

    Do you have any idea which part of Sicily is Sicily 1 and which is Sicily 2? The Lombards primarily went to Central and Eastern Sicily.

    @Pax,
    As to the Garfagnana, I thought it after I wrote it, but didn't bother to go back. :)

    Language clines are very important in Italy and tell us a lot about genetics.

    One of many linguistic maps of Italy...we could quibble about some areas, but I think it makes the point.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Has anyone else noticed that there's something wrong with the "North African" percentage in the Levantine populations? It's way too high. The gene flow went in the other direction.

    Maybe it dumped certain alleles in the North African cluster because there was no South West Asian reference?

    Two final things:

    They seem to say that the admixture in the historical period in Italy is better fitted as being from Italian proxies rather than from West Asian proxies. That would better agree with Ralph and Coop and other IBS analyses that don't show any genetic intrusion into Italy since about 400 BC, other than from the Balkans. If that proves to be the case, then this might mark the unification of the peninsula under the Romans, with the heavily Greek influenced southern Italians moving north through colonia, or just in the normal course of life and trade.

    I'm not sure I'm buying that Otzi had no "Anatolian Bronze Age" type ancestry, either. At least in old calculators he had 22% "Caucasus" like, as in modern Caucasus like, which is indeed a blend of old Anatolian Neolithic and IN (as well as a bit of EHG perhaps). He also had more than 7% South West Asian.

    I'm just going to wait for Reich. I have more confidence in him and Paabo and in ancient dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Actually I think a better explanation for the fact that outlier Sicilians with elevated North African ancestry also have what looks to be 3 times as much steppe ancestry as 'baseline southern Italians' might be the well-recorded fact that the Muslim soldiers stationed in these regions were in large parts of Saqaliba (Slavic) derivation.

    There was a quarter in Palermo called Harat as Saqaliba,the other four were Al Qasr , Al-Khalisa , Harat al-Masjid , where the so-called SaqālibaSon Mosque ( Masjid Ibn Siqlab ) was located, and Harat-al-Gadidah , the Jewish quarter also known as Harat al-Yahud. ("Jewish Quarter").

    The Harat as-Saqaliba was briefly mentioned by the Arab traveler Ibn Hawqal who visited Sicily from 972 to 973. It was at that time the most populous and water-rich district of the city.

    https://translate.google.com/transla...at_as-Saqaliba

    The origin of these Slavs is disputed; according to conflicting claims they go back all the way to 535 AD when the Byzantine General Belisarius presumably left a Slavic garrison in the city, or to the 10th century when the Fatimids conquered Sicily and likewise left a Slavic garrison there.
    The Italian historian Amari probably came with the most plausible explanation for their origin; he points out that Abu'l Fida'y, an Arabic historian and geographer from the 1300's, states that in 928/9 off the coast of Maghreb and Sicily there appeared a Slavic piratical fleet of 30 ships which, together with the Arabs, pillaged Calabria, Corsica, and Sardinia. After some time these very Slavic pirates decided to permanently settle in a quarter of Palermo which was named after them. These were most certainly South Slavic pirates from the Adriatic littoral who were quite active sea rovers during the period in question. These Sicilian Slavs are mentioned by Ibn Hauqal, an Arabic geographer and traveler from the second half of the 10th century, as well as by Yaqut, who also mentions a different quarter of Palermo whose name was "The Quarter of the Slavic mosque"

    Conclusion however is that
    The Slavs of Palermo assimilated little by little to the Arab-Muslim population or whatever other population and lost their identity. In Latin documents of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, there is no mention of a Slavic quarter in Palermo and the name Harat as-Saqaliba is replaced by Seralcadi , which comes from the Arabic Shari 'al- Qadi meaning "Street of Judge "

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    However i do not think that Saqaliba would had big impact on the population in Sicily,we are not talking about waste land here but already settled area.

    Or otherwise i don't understand the history of the region,maybe genetics can tell us something but i don't see Slavic Y-dna there for example?

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    As I said, while they were certainly not JUST eunuchs, and hence my reference to the Mamluk rulers of Egypt, the troops and government administrators were indeed probably eunuchs, and therefore left no descendants.

    Some of the "Slavs" in Sicily might not have been but they would have been a trickle into the ocean. After all, 8,000 Slavs were settled in Syria. What trace is there of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, while they were certainly not JUST eunuchs, and hence my reference to the Mamluk rulers of Egypt, the troops and government administrators were indeed probably eunuchs, and therefore left no descendants.

    Some of the "Slavs" in Sicily might not have been but they would have been a trickle into the ocean. After all, 8,000 Slavs were settled in Syria. What trace is there of them?
    How do you know that they were eunuchs? Being a soldier or administrator doesn't automaticaly mean eunuch,in reality many of the slave kids taken in the Otoman empire from the Balkans for example came to be grand viziers and married the sisters of the sultan himself,they were no eunuchs being administrators.If you can sent any source claiming that i am fine with that.We are discussing possibilities here.

    There is the rare I2a din in western Europe for example in Spain how it landed there.Yes we can guess Goths,Vandals,Saqaliba or whatever.
    Also i have no data to check medieval settlements of Slavs or genetic data in either Syria or Sicily,and their "descendants" if left any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    How do you know that they were eunuchs? Being a soldier doesn't automaticaly mean eunuch,in reality many of the slave kids taken in the Otoman empire from the Balkans for example came to be grand viziers and merried the sisters of the sultan himself,they were no eunuchs being administrators.If you can sent any source claiming that i am fine with that.We are discussing possibilities here.

    There is the rare I2a din in western Europe for example in Spain how it landed there.Yes we can guess Goths,Vandals,Saqaliba or whatever.
    Also i have no data to check medieval settlements of Slavs or genetic data in either Syria or Sicily,and their "descendants" if left any.
    Did I say they were all eunuchs?

    To deny that was a common occurrence is silly, however.

    "White Eunuchs were Europeans from the Balkans or the Caucasus, either purchased in the slave markets or were boys taken from Christian families in the Balkans who were unable to pay the Jizya tax. They served the recruits at the Palace School and were from 1582 prohibited from entering the Harem."

    "
    The entire Devşirme system, where the children of Christian families in the Balkans unable to pay the onerous jizya tax were taken away, and, depending upon their sex, became either concubines, in the case of the girls, or, in the case of the boys, were conscripted into Janissary Corps or became eunuchs. The act (emasculation) made Ottoman rule much hated by Christians in the Balkans."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch#Ottoman_Empire

    In the case of Sicily, this is what Chiarelli has to say:

    "Thus, this quarter seems to have been named after the white European eunuch slaves who were an important part of the Fatimid army and held high positions in bureaucratic offices of the government. Arabic sources generically referred to these white slave sas "saqalibah" regardless of their actual origins,which vary. They were mostly of Slavic origin, since the name originally meant Slav, that is, those people who inhabited central Europe and the Balkans. It was also used to designate any European originating outside the Frankish and Byzantine empires, although at times it was also used for southern Italians (especially Lombards) and some Sicilians."
    P. 255-258

    Many rose to great heights as leaders of armies and as civilian administrators.

    Whether they were made eunuchs or not seems very much to depend on the place, the dynasty, the rulers etc.

    Did you miss these tidbits when you were doing your research?

    "In al-Andalus, Slavic eunuchs were so popular and widely distributed that they became synonymous with Saqāliba.[4]"

    "Theophanes mentions that the Umayyad caliph Muawiyah I settled a whole army of 5,000 Slavic mercenaries in Syria in the 660s."

    You should know by now that I don't make things up.

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