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Thread: Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA?

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    Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA?

    Does the principal R1a section of the Ashkenazi Levite population descend paternally from the collapse of Corded Ware society in East Central Europe circa 2,350 BC?

    Some related Middle Eastern R1a sections and some eastern subclades of other haplogroups like I2a-A427 and R1b-U152 also look to have branched off from their main populations in
    East/Central Europe in a similar direction at around the same time.

    Within the next several hundred years, we find Indo-European influences appearing around the Caspian, Eastern Turkey, Iraq, Arabia and Egypt.

    If so, it is curious that this yDNA struggled to survive amidst haplogroups J and E in the Middle East and only really seemed to begin sustainably flourishing again when it turned full circle and re-emerged in its East Central European point of origin.



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    Nope, genetic beginning of Ashkenazi is estimated at around 500-1000 AD, somewhere in South/South East Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Nope, genetic beginning of Ashkenazi is estimated at around 500-1000 AD, somewhere in South/South East Europe.
    Yes, but I'm talking about the paternal ancestral roots of its main Levite population. Ashkenazi doesn't have a genetic beginning as such - its people are of mixed genetic inheritance.

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    It's an ancient subclade picked up in the Near East.

    We have lots of threads on it. Use the search engine.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's an ancient subclade picked up in the Near East.

    We have lots of threads on it. Use the search engine.
    Thanks for the advice, but the search engine showed not a single other thread discussing Levite DNA and possible Corded Ware ancestry.

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    Ashkenazi Levites are mainly CTS-6, which is downstream of Z93, the sister clade of Z283, which was the main Corded Ware haplogroup. Z93 is not associated with Corded Ware but rather with Sintashta-Petrovka, and at any rate the R1a CTS-6 entered the Jewish community in what is now Iraq long after the Corded Ware culture ended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Ashkenazi Levites are mainly CTS-6, which is downstream of Z93, the sister clade of Z283, which was the main Corded Ware haplogroup. Z93 is not associated with Corded Ware but rather with Sintashta-Petrovka, and at any rate the R1a CTS-6 entered the Jewish community in what is now Iraq long after the Corded Ware culture ended.
    Yes, although Sintashta itself originated shortly after Corded Ware's collapse and looks to me to have derived from it. I'm also not aware that even the majority of Corded Ware was Z283, and expect that Corded Ware was much more diverse than that.

    yfull shows Z93 as already 900 years old and having split into 30 or so branches by the time Sintashta arose, so I imagine it had almost certainly spread more widely than Sintashta by that point. yfull also gives CTS6 an early date (certainly predating Judaism), and I would estimate it as even older - quite possibly going back to the Corded Ware period itself.

    Can we be confident that CTS6 came into Judaism at any particular point and was not already there at its outset? It looks like there were early branchings of Z93 present in Iraq and Arabia; and, as I have said, Indo-European signs crop up in the South East Mediterranean region very early on.

    Could CTS6 (and indeed some other Z93 subclades) have been components of the Jewish founding population? And could they have joined up with some of the other ancestors of this population only shortly after Corded Ware's collapse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's an ancient subclade picked up in the Near East.

    We have lots of threads on it. Use the search engine.
    Sorry, should have said posts. It's often discussed in threads on Jewish genetics.


    "Also the only R1a CTS6* found today are from Spain and Armenia. Also upstream are found in Palestinians but not in Iran and Central Asia.
    Most probably this lineages are from Mitanni Aryans."

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=Z93+Jews

    I don't know why you have to try to connect this to Corded Ware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, should have said posts. It's often discussed in threads on Jewish genetics.
    "Also the only R1a CTS6* found today are from Spain and Armenia. Also upstream are found in Palestinians but not in Iran and Central Asia.
    Most probably this lineages are from Mitanni Aryans."
    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=Z93+Jews
    I don't know why you have to try to connect this to Corded Ware.
    I agree that it comes most probably from Mitanni Aryans or a close relative.
    My dating estimates are that Z93 flourished (and indeed CTS6 arose) just after Corded Ware collapsed, and was most likely one of its few surviving offshoots. The Mitanni look like one of its more successful manifestations.
    In league with other people from haplogroups J and E, it looks to me like Z93 people would probably have been
    integrated early enough to have been foundational to Judaism, rather than their Aryan influences being a later insertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know why you have to try to connect this to Corded Ware.
    The other possible link to Corded Ware populations is that I see other branching-offs from East/Central European haplogroups (e.g. R1b-U152 and I2a-A427) into Middle Eastern subgroups at similar estimated dates.
    I am wondering whether they were all connected to the same early Aryan migration.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Corded Ware spoke already a some kind of proto-Germanic dialect. Iranic (Aryan) dialects were older then Corded Ware and much older than Balto-Slavic. Corded Ware has nothing to do with the ancient Aryans.

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    Z93 entered Jewishgenepool from Mesopotamia during multiple periods of time.

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    Judaism was heavilyinfluenced by the Mesopotamian religions. Those Mesopotamian believes predate Corded Ware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Corded Ware spoke already a some kind of proto-Germanic dialect. Iranic (Aryan) dialects were older then Corded Ware and much older than Balto-Slavic. Corded Ware has nothing to do with the ancient Aryans.
    How do you know for sure which dialect (or even which language) was spoken in Corded Ware?

    And why do you think the same proto-Germanic dialect would have been spoken in each of Holland, Northern Russia, Hungary and all over Corded Ware's extensive 4,000 km range? The different regions within Corded Ware look autosomally different to each other - e.g. some have a substantial Iranic component, some have hardly any - I imagine the autosomal mix on its own would have affected the dialect at a local level. But even where autosomal mixes and haplogroups are very similar (e.g. in North Central Spain), we can find two entirely different languages (Spanish and Basque) spoken in close proximity to one another.

    How can Aryan dialects be older than Corded Ware dialects when the Corded Ware period preceded the the Aryan period?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Z93 entered Jewishgenepool from Mesopotamia during multiple periods of time.
    Z93, and indeed many other haplogroups, have probably been constantly entering the Jewish gene pool for thousands of years.

    Why do you specify Mesopotamia as the place where all of these multiple entries of Z93 would have occurred?

    The more interesting question is whether Z93 was already in the gene pool by Judaism's outset. As you have said that it 'entered' the Jewish gene pool, I wonder whether you are thinking that Z93 was an interpolator into a pre-existing Jewish population from which it was previously wholly absent? If so, I would be interested to learn how you might have come to this conclusion.

    yfull estimates that the joint ancestor of typical Corded Ware Z283 and typical Aryan Z93 populations lived 3,000 BC (and my own estimate using a different methodology comes to a similar conclusion). This date equates quite closely to the onset of Corded Ware, so it would be difficult for the core Aryan populations to have diverged from the core Corded Ware populations much before Corded Ware began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Judaism was heavilyinfluenced by the Mesopotamian religions. Those Mesopotamian believes predate Corded Ware.
    Yes, I'm sure Judaism would have been heavily influenced by the Mesopotamian religions, especially as much (perhaps a significant majority) of its gene pool would have derived from Mesopotamia.

    However, Christian tradition has also been heavily influenced by European pagan religions that pre-date it. This does not preclude Christianity from having had a Middle Eastern component - indeed, we know that the Christian faith per se wholly originated in the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    yfull estimates that the joint ancestor of typical Corded Ware Z283 and typical Aryan Z93 populations lived 3,000 BC (and my own estimate using a different methodology comes to a similar conclusion). This date equates quite closely to the onset of Corded Ware, so it would be difficult for the core Aryan populations to have diverged from the core Corded Ware populations much before Corded Ware began.
    Z93 Sintashta of the Caspian Steppe 2,100 BC has a heavy NW Anatolian/EEF autosomal component, similar to Corded Ware and unlike its predecessor Caspian Steppe Yamnayan population. It looks like it arrived there from the West.

    As its relatives spread down the shores of the Caspian into the Middle East, it seemed to thrive as an accompaniment (rather than as an antagonist) to some of the existing populations. My gut instinct is that its Corded Ware ancestors had learnt the success of adopting this strategy from R1b Bell Beaker people in Central Europe, perhaps acting as enforcers/warlords for indigenous elites to help them protect and procure territory and resources from their peers. I see these Corded Ware offshoots as perhaps catalysing the expansionary movements of populations from the Northern Middle East southwards into the Levant, Arabia and Egypt, (e.g. Mitanni, Hyksos) and eastwards into India (e.g. Aryans). As such, I see Z93 as most likely integral in the formative period of Judaism.

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    Ashkenazi are almost 100% EEF. Ultimately they are just Middle Eastern (Anatolian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Ashkenazi are almost 100% EEF. Ultimately they are just Middle Eastern (Anatolian)
    No Iran Neo? Everybody else from the Middle East has it from Bronze Age migrations there. Why not them? Who says so?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Ashkenazi are almost 100% EEF. Ultimately they are just Middle Eastern (Anatolian)
    Nobody alive is almost 100 percent EEF outside of Sardinians

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    I was referring to Lazaridis' 2014 work, (i wasn't totally right) Still they are 50% Italian - 50% Levantine. That's ultimately mostly Middle Eastern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    I was referring to Lazaridis' 2014 work, (i wasn't totally right) Still they are 50% Italian - 50% Levantine. That's ultimately mostly Middle Eastern.
    Absolutely no one has said that, not even the foremost scholars on Jewish genetics.

    The most anyone has said is that PERHAPS the Ashkenazim were PARTLY formed by Jewish men admixing with Italian women. Problem is that there's no IBD sharing between them. There "is" some with Eastern Europeans, on the other hand.

    You might want to read this latest thread on the subject. No one yet really knows the whole story. Until they release data on Jews of the Classical Era and compare them to people in Greece, Italy and other parts of West Eurasia in the same era no one is going to know.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ewish+genetics

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    There are only two possibilities for Ashkenazim.

    Either they are part Levantine part Italian.

    Either they are 60% Greek, 30% Levantine.

    The most Northern-shifted Levantine are Alawites, Northern most Syrians and (salty) Cypriots but none of them are like Ashkenazim genetically.

    Ashkenazim are also in their basal ancestry identical to Sephardic, Romaniote and old standing Italian Jews.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    There are only two possibilities for Ashkenazim.

    Either they are part Levantine part Italian.

    Either they are 60% Greek, 30% Levantine.

    The most Northern-shifted Levantine are Alawites, Northern most Syrians and (salty) Cypriots but none of them are like Ashkenazim genetically.

    Ashkenazim are also in their basal ancestry identical to Sephardic, Romaniote and old standing Italian Jews.
    Read the darn paper instead of listening to half baked analyses from t-rolls.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Corded Ware spoke already a some kind of proto-Germanic dialect. Iranic (Aryan) dialects were older then Corded Ware and much older than Balto-Slavic. Corded Ware has nothing to do with the ancient Aryans.
    Without to judge the Pip hypothesis, I would say:
    nothing at the present stage of knowledge, links CWC with proto-Germanic as a basis - the dates of apparition of well defined and separated modern languages families do not prove or disprove their possible connexions.

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