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Thread: Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Z93, and indeed many other haplogroups, have probably been constantly entering the Jewish gene pool for thousands of years.

    Why do you specify Mesopotamia as the place where all of these multiple entries of Z93 would have occurred?

    The more interesting question is whether Z93 was already in the gene pool by Judaism's outset. As you have said that it 'entered' the Jewish gene pool, I wonder whether you are thinking that Z93 was an interpolator into a pre-existing Jewish population from which it was previously wholly absent? If so, I would be interested to learn how you might have come to this conclusion.

    yfull estimates that the joint ancestor of typical Corded Ware Z283 and typical Aryan Z93 populations lived 3,000 BC (and my own estimate using a different methodology comes to a similar conclusion). This date equates quite closely to the onset of Corded Ware, so it would be difficult for the core Aryan populations to have diverged from the core Corded Ware populations much before Corded Ware began.
    Aryans belonged to many haplogroups, but some 'Aryans' were already Z94 and not Z93.

    Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware went through different evolutions. R1a in CWC was already very different from Asian R1a.

    Genesis starts with the creation of our world and the history of Adam and Eve. Those stories were directly imported from the Mesopotamia. Also the national god of Israel and Judah, Yahweh, was from the Mesopotamia, came most probably from the Hurrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    nothing at the present stage of knowledge, links CWC with proto-Germanic as a basis - the dates of apparition of well defined and separated modern languages families do not prove or disprove their possible connexions.
    Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I see these Corded Ware offshoots as perhaps catalysing the expansionary movements of populations from the Northern Middle East southwards into the Levant, Arabia and Egypt, (e.g. Mitanni, Hyksos) and eastwards into India (e.g. Aryans). As such, I see Z93 as most likely integral in the formative period of Judaism.
    Not possible. R1a in CWC has been associated with Z283, while Aryans had already Z94. Z283 and Z94 are 2 very different things.

    Z283 is not 'Aryan'.

    If Mitanni had some R1a in them next to other haplogroups like J2a, their R1a would be most likely Z94. And R1a-Z94 has nothing to do with CWC. Z94 went through a very different evolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Genesis starts with the creation of our world and the history of Adam and Eve. Those stories were directly imported from the Mesopotamia. Also the national god of Israel and Judah, Yahweh, was from the Mesopotamia, came most probably from the Hurrians.
    Furthermore, it seems that Judaism was also heavily influenced by ancient Zoroastrians.

    jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Furthermore, it seems that Judaism was also heavily influenced by ancient Zoroastrians.

    jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism
    Notice that the Mitanni were not 'Zoroastrians'. They were like early Medes 'Magi'. Zoroastrians came later after the Mitanni and Judaism was even highly influenced by the Zoroastrians from Iran. There is a DNA of ancient Zoroastrians.

    Garden of Eden, the tree of life, all of these stories are from the Mesopotamia. Also, the hometown of Abraham is Urfa or 'Ur Kasdim' in Mesopotamia

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Aryans belonged to many haplogroups, but some 'Aryans' were already Z94 and not Z93.

    Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware went through different evolutions. R1a in CWC was already very different from Asian R1a.

    Genesis starts with the creation of our world and the history of Adam and Eve. Those stories were directly imported from the Mesopotamia. Also the national god of Israel and Judah, Yahweh, was from the Mesopotamia, came most probably from the Hurrians.
    Thank you for all your information, which helps with my research.

    I don't think any Aryans could have been Z94 and not Z93, as Z94 is simply one of the branches of Z93.

    Yes, Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware would have gone through different evolutions, although from a very recent common starting point. Corded Ware, however, was not limited to Z283. And Z94 had to have evolved differently from other Corded Ware populations, as yfull estimates that it only came into existence in 2,200 BC (after Corded Ware had ended). My own date estimate for it, using different methodology, is almost identical.

    Yes, Asian R1a is different from R1a in Corded Ware, but only because it had admixed with other populations after having left Corded Ware. While the Asian R1a was in Sintashta, before it had spread into Asia, it was autosomally very similar to Corded Ware.

    I do not want to get into theology, nor to dispute that the Jewish religion developed from Mesopotamia or the Hurrians. Although, as far as I am aware, the date for the earliest source of the Mesopotamian creation stories is 2,000 BC, so we cannot even be sure that they preceded the arrival of Z93 into Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.
    The predominant Corded Ware haplogroup was R1a-M417 and its population included men who were M417xZ283. Z94 is also a branch of M417. If we look at the M417 today that is neither Z283 nor Z93/Z94, it is found almost exclusively in the Corded Ware zone.

    Yes, I'm sure CW people would have had an influence on the Germanic language, but I'm not aware of any evidence that they all spoke the same proto-Germanic at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Z283 is not 'Aryan'.
    Yes, Aryan is not really a very helpful word, as it postcedes Corded Ware. Z283 is a branch of the M417 population that remained in the Corded Ware zone, and Z93 is a component of the same population that formed the Aryans several centuries later.

    The single male ancestor of all Z283 and Z93 people was around in approximately 3,000 BC. Where do you think he lived, if not in Corded Ware (that arose in 2,900 BC)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.
    I 'll try to be clear if I can.
    I 'm not defending the Pip's thesis, I just try to weight some arguments. NO, being part of the autosomal basis of a pop DOES NOT imply an heavy part in the making of this new pop's language (here, Germanic), nor it exclude it completely. SO, the connexions between unkown but supposed language of CWC with the proto-Indo-Arian is not proved or disproved.
    But Z93 and Z283 branched off around 3800 BC according to some sources, so a simple shift from CWC to Sintashta seems excluded, spite strong links at the autosomal level, all that does not prove they did not share an heavy common ancestry. But the EEF in Sintashta can being come from a common donor (Ukraine?) but not by force through CWC origin. And there is still a long way to go to Mitanni (not to Tipperary LOL). I don't give my opinion otherwise because I lack detailed date for this very question of Levites. Sorry.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    My provisional view is that Z93 was an offshoot from most likely Southern Polish/NW Ukrainian Corded Ware that for the most part migrated eastwards across the Steppe towards the Caspian Sea on Corded Ware's demise.

    Its branching suggests it was quickly successful there - within a few hundred years, it looks like its Z2124 branch had spread into Sintashta in the North and Azerbaijan/Iran/Iraq in the South. Due to its success in a relatively short space of time, I would suggest its bearers probably retained much of the mindset and lifestyles that its ancestors had before migrating eastwards.

    My estimates (based on fairly limited data) are that Z2124 had already branched apart in Iraq and adjoining areas by 2,000 BC; and that further branching arising from this Iraqi point of origin (including the Levite yDNA CTS6) was already taking place in the Levant region by approximately 1,500 BC. It is interesting to me that this date corresponds with the rise of the Mitanni, and is not too far distant from the Hyksos migrations into Egypt.

    My reading of limited autosomal data suggests that R1a was most likely not a core component of Levantine DNA much before this point, although it might have already been present in the Levant in an un-admixed population. By 1,000 BC or so, it had probably become admixed into the general Judaean population, although still formed very much a minority component (less than 10%) of it.

    The R1a-CTS6 Levite population that exists today looks to have emerged fairly recently from a tiny bottleneck.

    I would be interested to be notified of any data that suggests these estimates need to be revised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    But Z93 and Z283 branched off around 3800 BC according to some sources, so a simple shift from CWC to Sintashta seems excluded, spite strong links at the autosomal level, all that does not prove they did not share an heavy common ancestry. But the EEF in Sintashta can being come from a common donor (Ukraine?) but not by force through CWC origin. And there is still a long way to go to Mitanni (not to Tipperary LOL). I don't give my opinion otherwise because I lack detailed date for this very question of Levites. Sorry.
    We cannot know the exact date for the Z93/Z283 split, but even if it were as early as 3,800 BC, it would still show a relatively recent common point of origin.

    I too see the EEF in Sintashta as coming from Ukraine, but from the far North West of it, where there was a significant Corded Ware influence. The data I have seen suggests that the EEF in Ukrainian Yamnaya was fairly minimal, and certainly insufficient to contribute the amount present in Sintashta.

    It may be a longish way (estimated 800 years) from the end of Corded Ware to the height of the Mitanni, but if you think of a small fleeing offshoot from a primitive Central European population relocating to the Levant via the Steppe, the Caspian and Iraq, and merely one small section of this building up into one of the largest Middle Eastern powers of its time, it is still quite a feat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, should have said posts. It's often discussed in threads on Jewish genetics.


    "Also the only R1a CTS6* found today are from Spain and Armenia. Also upstream are found in Palestinians but not in Iran and Central Asia.
    Most probably this lineages are from Mitanni Aryans."

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=Z93+Jews

    I don't know why you have to try to connect this to Corded Ware.
    I like the Mitanni idea probably via Sintashta Iranian speakers (Indo-Iranian perhaps).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Ashkenazi Levites are mainly CTS-6, which is downstream of Z93, the sister clade of Z283, which was the main Corded Ware haplogroup. Z93 is not associated with Corded Ware but rather with Sintashta-Petrovka, and at any rate the R1a CTS-6 entered the Jewish community in what is now Iraq long after the Corded Ware culture ended.
    Doesn't Sintashta-Petrovka and CW R1a clades ultimately derive from an earlier M417 clade and probably have a common origin in the same Pontic-Caspian to North/Northeast Europe (and later back to the steppes) expansion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Thank you for all your information, which helps with my research.

    I don't think any Aryans could have been Z94 and not Z93, as Z94 is simply one of the branches of Z93.

    Yes, Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware would have gone through different evolutions, although from a very recent common starting point. Corded Ware, however, was not limited to Z283. And Z94 had to have evolved differently from other Corded Ware populations, as yfull estimates that it only came into existence in 2,200 BC (after Corded Ware had ended). My own date estimate for it, using different methodology, is almost identical.

    Yes, Asian R1a is different from R1a in Corded Ware, but only because it had admixed with other populations after having left Corded Ware. While the Asian R1a was in Sintashta, before it had spread into Asia, it was autosomally very similar to Corded Ware.

    I do not want to get into theology, nor to dispute that the Jewish religion developed from Mesopotamia or the Hurrians. Although, as far as I am aware, the date for the earliest source of the Mesopotamian creation stories is 2,000 BC, so we cannot even be sure that they preceded the arrival of Z93 into Asia.
    True, Corded Ware was not limited to Z283. And there are no other haplogroups in Asia that would come from CWC. That's why it is not logical that Z93 came from CWC.

    Z93 predate CWC culture, this leads toward an assuption that Z93 was not derived from CWC. It is in conflict with chronology.

    The split of Z93 from M417 took place around 3800 BCE. It was much earlier than CWC and it was even before Yamnaya.

    CWC was similar to Yamnaya. It was derived from it. Sintashta's R1a was in that region before CWC. What we know for sure is that R1a-Z93 in Sintashta was older than CWC.

    All the Steppes region was autosomally similar to each other. Even before Z283 and Z93 split.



    Sumerian creation stories are very old. Epic of Gilgamesh is at least as old as the earliest Sumerian writings
    Last edited by BenjaminD; 27-12-18 at 03:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I 'll try to be clear if I can.
    I 'm not defending the Pip's thesis, I just try to weight some arguments. NO, being part of the autosomal basis of a pop DOES NOT imply an heavy part in the making of this new pop's language (here, Germanic), nor it exclude it completely. SO, the connexions between unkown but supposed language of CWC with the proto-Indo-Arian is not proved or disproved.
    But Z93 and Z283 branched off around 3800 BC according to some sources, so a simple shift from CWC to Sintashta seems excluded, spite strong links at the autosomal level, all that does not prove they did not share an heavy common ancestry. But the EEF in Sintashta can being come from a common donor (Ukraine?) but not by force through CWC origin. And there is still a long way to go to Mitanni (not to Tipperary LOL). I don't give my opinion otherwise because I lack detailed date for this very question of Levites. Sorry.
    I do agree with you. There there was no shift from CWC to Sintashta. Z93 is at least from 3800 BC and it predates CWC.

    There is no evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin. EEF (Anatolian from ancient Armenia) in Sintashta could be from southcentral Asia, can be even from BMAC culture.

    Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from Sintashta. The distance and a gap in space between Mitanni Culture and Sintashta doesn't feed the theory at all that both cultures are related to each other. Mitanni Kingdom is located in a very different area than a Sintashta Culure. Why would they travel that far at the first place? And even culturally they were not really similar to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    My provisional view is that Z93 was an offshoot from most likely Southern Polish/NW Ukrainian Corded Ware that for the most part migrated eastwards across the Steppe towards the Caspian Sea on Corded Ware's demise.
    Z93 is at least 5800 years old. It is much older than CWC. Z93 was already in Kazakhstan before any Sintashta or Corded Ware Cultures were formed.

    Like as you said that Corded Ware was not only limited to Z283, but also I1, I2, R1b and other haplogoups. So, ancient Aryans were not only limited to Z94, but also other haplogroups that can be found in Asia.
    By the time when people started to call themselves Aryans in Asia, Z93 already involved into Z94. That means that Z94 was already part of the Aryans. And Z94 (evolved from Z93) has nothing to do with 'Southern Polish/NW Ukrainian Corded War'.

    CWC was not 'Aryan' since it belonged to a diffent branch of R1a than 'Aryan' Z94. Also, like you said R1a was not the only DNA in CWC. CWC had also dna like R1b, I1.

    And Z94 was not the only dna in Mitanni. Mitanni were also J2a and other dna.

    If Mitanni had some R1a, than it would be most likely Z94, since by that time there was already a split of Z94 from Z93. But nevertheless, autosomally speaking, Mitanni 'Aryans' from 1600 BC were very different from CWC from 2200 BC or Sintashta.

    Z94 in Levite Jews has nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta, but came most likely from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians.

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    The answer to your question is that R1a in Levite DNA is actually from Hurrians, Mitanni, Persians and not from CWC or Sintashta.

    Judaism has Mesopotamian roots. And Hurrians, Mitanni were Mesopotamian people.

    And, how Hurrians, Mitanni or Persians got their R1a is a different question and has nothing to do with the Levite DNA.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Doesn't Sintashta-Petrovka and CW R1a clades ultimately derive from an earlier M417 clade and probably have a common origin in the same Pontic-Caspian to North/Northeast Europe (and later back to the steppes) expansion?
    Split of Z93 from M417 took place around 3800 BC and it was even before Yamnaya. R1a in Kazakhstan predate any CWC and Sintashta cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Z94 in Levite Jews has nothing to do with CWC or Sintashta, but came most likely from the Hurrians and ancient Mitanni, Persians, Medes or Parthians.
    Well, then it probably does have something to do with Sintasha and/or CWC, because Hurrians probably took it from the Mitanni, Persians, Medes and Parthians, as you say, who by their turn probably derived from Sintashta. And Sintashta is certainly linked to earlier CWC, though not necessarily derived directly from it. It's just that the chain of chronological connection is not direct, but the link is there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Split of Z93 from M417 took place around 3800 BC and it was even before Yamnaya. R1a in Kazakhstan predate any CWC and Sintashta cultures.
    What's your source for that claim? Are you talking about ancient DNA in Kazakhstan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What's your source for that claim? Are you talking about ancient DNA in Kazakhstan?
    Actually ancient and modern, because ancient became part of a modern population.

    I got it from a study on R1a. They estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred ~5800 years ago (Underhill et al, p. 130). And this was really way before CWC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, then it probably does have something to do with Sintasha and/or CWC, because Hurrians probably took it from the Mitanni, Persians, Medes and Parthians, as you say, who by their turn probably derived from Sintashta. And Sintashta is certainly linked to earlier CWC, though not necessarily derived directly from it. It's just that the chain of chronological connection is not direct, but the link is there.
    If we folow the chain of chronological connections, we could end up with the early primates.

    Chains don't matter. All what matters is direct ancestry and the autosomal distribution of those direct ancestors.

    So, there is no direct connection at all. So, R1a in Levite Jews was not the same (autosomally) as R1a of people before Mitanni etc.

    Levite Jews could have R1a arguably from Mitanni. The roots could be Mitannian etc. (directly) and not CWC at all. Where Mitanni got it, is up to a different duscussion and we can speculate about it for hours. But that is not the point.

    Mitanni were not the same as CWC or Sintashta, that is for sure.


    The question was Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA? The answer is no, because R1a was maybe from Mitanni. And Mitanni were by far not the same as CWC. And Levite Jews have also different major haplogroups. R1a is actually a minor dna in Levite Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    If we folow the chain of chronological connections, we could end up with the early primates.
    And are modern humans the same as early primates? Of course not. There were many evolutions.

    Chain of chronological connections doesn't matter. If Mitanni had R1a, than it would be most likely Z94. I think so because R1a in modern populations (Arabs, Assyrians, Kurds) who live around the ancient Mitanni region is moslty Z94. 'Aryan' Z94 went through very different evolutions and has nothing to do with CWC.


    Mitanni were Mesopotamian people and this region is where Judaism has got some of its influences. Judaism has got also a lot native Levant (Red Sea) roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Z93 is at least from 3800 BC and it predates CWC.
    yfull dates the age of the Z93 mutation as somewhere between 2700 and 3000 BC. Its dating is based on SNP mutations over the entire yDNA sequence. My own analysis is based on an entirely different methodology (STR mutations analysed within precise SNPs) and dates the age of the Z93 mutation as somewhere between 2730 and 3250 BC. Z93 might be older than these dates, but I am not aware of any certain evidence that it is at least from 3800 BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    There is no evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin. EEF (Anatolian from ancient Armenia) in Sintashta could be from southcentral Asia, can be even from BMAC culture.
    There is no definite evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin, nor is there any evidence that it is not of CWC origin. The EEF in Sintashta is highly unlikely to be of South Central Asian origin, as Sintashta's autosomal mix is starkly different to that in prior South Central Asian samples. It is, however, almost identical to the mix and proportions found in prior-dated Corded Ware samples.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from Sintashta. The distance and a gap in space between Mitanni Culture and Sintashta doesn't feed the theory at all that both cultures are related to each other. Mitanni Kingdom is located in a very different area than a Sintashta Culure. Why would they travel that far at the first place?
    Yes, Mitanni were probably different from Sintashta, as they were formed from a mix of Sintashta with Middle Eastern peoples. People travelled long distances for all sorts of reasons - to find a more amenable environment or climate in which to live, to raid, to flee. We know that Anatolians and Steppe people moved into Central Europe - why should we presume that they would not also move in the opposite direction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    True, Corded Ware was not limited to Z283. And there are no other haplogroups in Asia that would come from CWC. That's why it is not logical that Z93 came from CWC.
    It is perfectly logical that a small branch of Corded Ware with Z93 might migrate away from Europe, whilst most other branches of Corded Ware were collapsing and becoming extinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Z93 predate CWC culture, this leads toward an assuption that Z93 was not derived from CWC. It is in conflict with chronology.
    Even if this were true, there is no conflict. L51 predates Yamnaya, but this does not rule out the possibility that L51 in Western Europe derives from Yamnaya.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Sintashta's R1a was in that region before CWC.
    What evidence do you have of this? My understanding is that Sintashta only dates back to 2100 BC, shortly after Corded Ware ended.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminD View Post
    Sumerian creation stories are very old. Epic of Gilgamesh is at least as old as the earliest Sumerian writings
    I have read that the earliest record of the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to approximately 2000 BC. Yes, very old, but not as old as Sintashta, Z93 or Corded Ware.

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