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Thread: N1C spread by trade routes service social class leitzleute, letigalli, lyda, litva

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    Any hints who are individuals in green area at the left of Dunkel's tree and who caused star cluster chromosomes Z16980 in the center. http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg
    It's similar to star clusters associated with ruling dynasties
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.XClNgVOxU0M

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    Wow. G.Dunkel states N DNA in Central Europe originated in Lithuania.
    http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/A...s-ver.3.0..pdf
    Attachment 10599
    https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ computed results indicates connections between DNA in Finland and Silk road locations. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../activity-feedAttachment 10600
    Attachment 10601
    some of them matches with Litv- placenames Attachment 10602

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    Y6075 in Central Europe is most likely associated with Early Slavic migrations. We're talking about 1500-2000 BP. You know, the Great Migration period. It is well known that they spread from Dnieper Southwards. It could come from Bogaczewo culture, which was influenced by the Przeworsk culture (a Germanic/Slavic hybrid). In any case, it's got nothing to do with Lithuania, Lithuanians or any dynasties since Y6075 originated 2700 BP.

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    https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ graphs match spread of N locations with the trade routes and connect with the Silk road locations.

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    Are you OK? Do you have some mental health issues? What trade routes existed 8,000 years ago in post-glacial Northern Europe?

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    Thank you, I'm O.K.
    Have you noticed time period you can adjust on the right side?

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    It appears mongols also were highly involve in trade routes.
    "... there was a treaty signed around 1221(between the Venetian and Mongol empires). It’s not clear to me how much is known about the treaty proper, but the sense I have of it is that it was a commercial agreement. In return for exclusive trading rights around the Black Sea, Venice would make payments to the Mongol empire. It has been suggested that the Mongols gained intelligence about what was going on in Europe, and most usefully about the chaotic political situation in Russia, but that sounds like an incidental side-effect of ongoing contact between Venice and the Mongols, not specific terms of the treaty. Either way, the Mongols held up their end, maintaining good trading relations with the Venetians while sacking ports used by Venice’s rivals."

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Dude, get a job

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ graphs match spread of N locations with the trade routes and connect with the Silk road locations.
    The vast majority of the lines of "N expansion" from East Asia pass much to the north of the Silk Road, via Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. That's not a strong correlation at all. The Silk Road's final destination was in the East Mediterranean, where Europeans fought many battles to have access to the "oriental trade". Very few arrows go through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, via Iran, into the East Mediterranan. The vast majority of the "movements" of N seem to be much more northerly, from China right to North-Central Asia and South Siberia and then spreading and diversifying on all directions in Eastern Europe. I think you're seeing what you want to see in the map.

    Anyway, the Silk Road is waaaaaay too recent to have been responsible for the spread of N in Europe. N1c (not N, N1c proper) was already found in the northeasternmost part of Europe (Bolshoi Oleny Ostrov) in DNA from ~3500 years ago, and it must've been present elsewhere in or near Eastern Europe even earlier.

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    Silk road has existed in Roman times and most likely before https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route

    Alexander campaign went via Lydia (where there are same number of N carriers today as in Finland) to India (where N has 60% of brahmans) https://www.bible-history.com/maps/alexander_campaigns.html

    I haven't noticed N between finds of Большой Олений остров
    Mitochondrial haplogroups C*, C5, U5a, U5a1, U4a1, Z1a, D* and T* were identified in fossil remains of the population. According to scientists, the greatest genetic similarity with samples from the Island was shown by modern Siberian populations, mainly in the Yenisei River basin. Presumably, the population of the Island arrived to the Kola Peninsula 3,500 years ago from Central Siberia, https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003296

    It's more likely N spread from South to North via Siberia rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_River_Routes#/media/File:Siberiariverroutemap.png


    Last edited by Norvila; 11-01-19 at 15:15.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The vast majority of the lines of "N expansion" from East Asia pass much to the north of the Silk Road, via Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. That's not a strong correlation at all. The Silk Road's final destination was in the East Mediterranean, where Europeans fought many battles to have access to the "oriental trade". Very few arrows go through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, via Iran, into the East Mediterranan. The vast majority of the "movements" of N seem to be much more northerly, from China right to North-Central Asia and South Siberia and then spreading and diversifying on all directions in Eastern Europe. I think you're seeing what you want to see in the map.

    Anyway, the Silk Road is waaaaaay too recent to have been responsible for the spread of N in Europe. N1c (not N, N1c proper) was already found in the northeasternmost part of Europe (Bolshoi Oleny Ostrov) in DNA from ~3500 years ago, and it must've been present elsewhere in or near Eastern Europe even earlier.
    I admire your enthusiasm, but the guy's clearly a nutter. Reading him is like going to a psych ward.

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    Z4908-L550 (Rurikid, Gedimind) migrations in 4000 years period
    Attachment 10622
    Attachment 10623

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    Novgorod fur traders expansion north
    "It is interesting to remember that Novgorod had started to expand towards the
    north in the 13th century. Novgorod that had during the 12th-13th centuries become
    an important center for fur trade expanded northwards and built a network of
    strongholds along the Northern Russian rivers. Novgorodians had probably reached
    the White Sea in the 12th century and settled first by the estuaries of the rivers Dvina
    and Onega. From these locations they went on trading and trapping expeditions to
    the Kola Peninsula and gradually established certain rights on the southwestern
    coast of the peninsula."
    "3 Juni 1326, Diplomatarium Norvegicum 1874, 101–102. It is, however, generally considered that
    the treaty maintained the border at Malangen. Rafn 1852, 449, 481; Vilkuna 1980, 649."
    Attachment 10624

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    Parallel with french fur traders spreading by Mississippi river and tributaries, settling and mixing with Indians
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqUSY59Kilk&t=6s

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    Migration north.
    The ancestors of Yakuts were Kurykans who migrated from Yenisey river to Lake Baikal and were subject to a certain Mongolian admixture prior to migration [8][9][10] in the 7th century. The Yakuts originally lived around Olkhon and the region of Lake Baikal. Beginning in the 13th century they migrated to the basins of the Middle Lena, the Aldan and Vilyuy rivers under the pressure of the rising Mongols.
    The Kurykans (Russian: Курыканы) were a Siberian tribe that inhabited the Lake Baikal area near the Mongol border in the 6th century[1] Early Kurykans migrated from Yenisey river.[2]

    Kurykans were largely displaced from their ancestor territories in the 6th c. AD. According to the inscription of the Bilge Kagan, Uch-Kurykans (Union of Three Kurykan tribes, Guligan of the Chinese chronicles) sent their ambassadors to the Bumyn Kagan funeral in 552 and/or his brother Istemi Kagan in 576. Kurykans are listed among the enemies of Ilterish Kagan (r. 682–694), father of Bilge Kagan (r. 717–734). Ilterish Kagan campaigned against Uch-Kurykans 47 times, and gave 20 battles. Kurykans were not the natives of their Western Baikal territory, their distinct burial tradition appears suddenly in the 6th c. Quite logically, they appeared in the Baikal refuge as exiles from some distant place, and equally logically they were a fraction of the larger tribe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Silk road has existed in Roman times and most likely before https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route

    Alexander campaign went via Lydia (where there are same number of N carriers today as in Finland) to India (where N has 60% of brahmans) https://www.bible-history.com/maps/alexander_campaigns.html

    I haven't noticed N between finds of Большой Олений остров
    Mitochondrial haplogroups C*, C5, U5a, U5a1, U4a1, Z1a, D* and T* were identified in fossil remains of the population. According to scientists, the greatest genetic similarity with samples from the Island was shown by modern Siberian populations, mainly in the Yenisei River basin. Presumably, the population of the Island arrived to the Kola Peninsula 3,500 years ago from Central Siberia, https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003296

    It's more likely N spread from South to North via Siberia rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_River_Routes#/media/File:Siberiariverroutemap.png


    No way Brahmins have 60% N frequency. That's just totally incorrect. As for numbers, I'll just ignore that. Numbers mean nothing when we know the human population increased tremendously in the last 2000 years and it did so in different paces from region to region. Proportions do matter. As for Lydia, it seems pretty likely that most of the N there arrived with the Turks, as similar clades of N are found in Central Asian Turks - so it's quite recent in that region.

    Yes, the earliest N1c in Fennoscandia was found in Bolshoi Oleni Ostrov. And it's much older than any influence of the Silk Road in Europe. Read: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/22/285437

    Additionally, N1c was also found in a DNA sample from the 3rd millennium BC (~4000 years ago) in Serteya, Russia, near Belarus and Latvia. Again, that presence of N1c exactly in Northeastern Europe where it's most frequent now existed way before any of the events you're talking about took place. Read: https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed

    This is the distribution of the N haplogroup samples found in the ancient DNA analyses as of now. The distribution of the haplogroup was clearly very "northern" and mainly Siberian/North Asian... Its first samples (not the N1c found in Europe, though) are found in Neolithic Liao civilization, i.e. northeast China near the Russian border. And of course it just had to move westward and be "lucky" or successful to expand a lot in Northeastern Europe. I wonder why you feel the need to find much a more convoluted (but presumably more "fabulous") explanation for what must've happened.



    No ancient sample with N haplogroup was found anywhere in West Asia and in all of Europe before 3500 years ago, and when it finally appears it's near Scandinavia and associated with heavy Siberian autosomal input, not anywhere else, certainly not in Lydia (Turkey) and other parts of the East Mediterranean. If N was strongly associated with the Silk Road, we'd never expect the regions most influenced by them to be located in the northeasternmost portion of Europe, because that was at best an utter periphery to those traders and travelers who mostly passed through Central Asia with the Mediterranean Basin as their main destination. You seem to be overestimating the demographic impact of traders too much.

    Yes, of course N seems to have come to Northeast Europe from the more habitable parts of Siberia (lower latitudes), but that does not mean at all that the Silk Road had something to do with it. It seems to me that you just can't accept a less "glorious" or "civilized" origin for the spread of your haplogroup, God knows why... But the real likelihood is that N1c predates any civilization in Northeastern Europe and any and was already a "northern haplogroup" coming from the east (Siberia) to the other side of the Urals and expanding later from somewhere near the Urals with a new mixed population, mostly of European descent but also with some Siberian ancestry. The autosomal linkage also suggests that the population that carried it was not "from the south" at all, it was just another Siberian population closely related to other taiga dwellers. And that may have happened before 3500-4000 years ago. The Silk Road and other southern trade routes have nothing to do with its arrival in Europe and subsequent expansion.

    My advice is: read the papers and the findings (especially ancient DNA) and try to derive conclusions from the evidences, not the contrary, which is trying to find evidences to prove your preconceived conclusions.

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    Thank you for the advice and material shared.

    It’s stated there:
    “…we gain further insights into the genetic history of the Saami in Finland, by showing that during the Iron Age, close genetic relatives of modern Saami lived in an area much further south than their current geographic range.

    Ten of the eleven ancient individuals from this study fall on this Uralic cline, with
    the exception of one individual from Levänluhta (JK2065), who is instead
    projected closer to modern Lithuanian, Norwegian and Icelandic populations.

    the Siberian genetic component is maximized in the Saami, and can
    also be seen in similar proportions in the historical Saami from Chalmny Varre
    and in two of the Levänluhta individuals. The third Levänluhta individual,
    JK2065, falling also in an outlier position on the PCA, lacks the Siberian
    component.

    Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) in individuals BOO002 and
    BOO004. Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia.

    As shown by these multiple lines of evidence, the pattern of genetic ancestry
    observed in north-eastern Europe is the result of admixture between
    populations from Siberia and populations from Europe.”


    Bolshoy Oleny Island is typical crossroad of cultures on the waterways as it obvious from the archeology: Excavations uncovered 23 burials in shallow pits; among them were the burials in wooden boxes, as well as those using tarred leather wrappings. There are two instances of cremation. The inventory includes tools made of stone and bone, such as arrowheads, daggers , awls, needles, and fish hooks. A copper arrowhead, and a sculpture of the head of an elk were found. 5 fragments of "wafer" ceramics were also found.

    Islands typically settled by sea farers to avoid conflict with local population on the land.
    So N1c1a1a could come from coastal Norway to anywhere south by rivers.

    Levänluhta located on the major river and trade route in Finland. So untypical individuals most likely settled by marriage with locals or left genetic trace by travel the same way French fur traders in America.

    So I think these finds more favor spread by trade routes than via northern taiga.

    Also it’s very strange to read such “scientific” article were just from 11 widely geographically distributed 3500 years old samples drown bold conclusion connecting genetic migration with languages and even present nationalities.


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    I appreciate for sharing remarkable publication
    Archaeology of lake settlements IV-II mill. BC/ Mazurkevich A. 2014
    Y DNA proportions R1a1 (50%), R1b1 (19%), N1c (25%) и I1a (6%)

    So far from the archeological background in publication lacustrine pile dwellings culture in upper N.Dvina and Volga was clear intrusion together with N1C inhabitants found there.
    Some quotes:
    The lacustrine pile dwellings, which appeared at the first half of the 4th millennium cal. BC, were unique sites among the Middle Neolithic cultures of the forest zone of northeastern
    Europe. The territory of pile dwelling expansion includes the
    basin of the upper (Serteya II, Usviaty IV, and Dubokrai V) and
    middle Western Dvina River (sites of the Krivinsky peat bog
    in the territory of Belarus). To the east and north of the Dnepr–
    Dvina region there were sites with Pit–Comb pottery, to the
    south — sites with Rhomb–Pit pottery, and to the west — the
    Late Narva Culture. Judging from published data, pile dwellings
    may also exist on the northeastern Baltic shores of Sarnate and
    Shvjantoji.

    Contacts with ancient inhabitants of other regions, sometimes
    rather remote one, can be traced in the materials
    of Dnepr-Dvina basin (Mazurkevich et al. 2009). A particular
    culture appeared here in Middle-Late Neolithic, which
    was formed on the local base of cultures of Eastern European
    forest zone and also absorbed some traits of archaeological
    cultures from other regions. It can be traced in different categories
    of artifacts — appearance of flint daggers, Baltic amber
    (Мазуркевич 2010), and the formation of new architectural
    form — pile-dwellings.
    The similarity in decoration, technological methods and
    morphology typical for synchronous sites, located in different
    archaeological microregions of Upper Dvina area, 40–120
    km remote from each other, may indicate one community who
    lived here.
    Usviatskaya culture has in its base numerous elements
    of Funnel beaker culture, and in the first half — middle of the
    III mil. BC was influenced by bearers of early Cord ware culture,
    as well as of Upperdneprovskaya culture, and those of more remote
    regions. Finds of pottery with curvilinear geometrical decor,
    vessels with trays and their imitation, find of a clay stamp —
    pintadera testify relations with the Balkans.

    pile-dwellings of northern Italy, which are part of the Alpine pile-dwellings phenomenon.
    pile-dwelling timbers in Italy spans from the end of the 4th millennium BC (from Isolino Virginia itself) until the end of the 14th century BC (from Iseo Brescia). Martinelli N. 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehis...round_the_Alps

    Unfortunately Martinelli missed most famous pile dwelling – Venetian city http://theapprenticeandthejourneyman...ation-of-wood/

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    Spread of the art in E.Europe connected with cultures in Central by trade?
    С конца IV — начала III тыс. до н.э. отмечается расцвет искусства малых форм: мелкой антропоморфной и зооморфной скульптуры из кремня, кости и рога в лесной зоне Восточной Европы (кат. 6-20). Начиная со второй половины IV тыс. до н.э. её западные области испытывали постоянное влияние со стороны среднеевропейских культур с производящим хозяйством.
    Мазуркевич А.Н. 2010 Балтийский янтарь в культурах

    The horizon, where it was found, is dated to VIII-V c. BC (Короткевич
    2013). Sample № А5 was found in burial mound with cremation
    of the burial ground Devichi gory near the lake Sennitsa, that
    is attributed to the middle age culture of long barrows.
    Due to Ychromosome markers, bone remains from the sites Serteya
    VIII, Anashkino and one sample from the site Serteya II were
    attributed to haplogroup R1a1, and the second sample from the
    site Serteya II and burial ground Devichi gory — to haplogroup N1c (table 3).

    The origins of the cremation rite are commonly believed to be in Hungary, where it was widespread since the first half of the second millennium BC.[3] The neolithic Cucuteni–Trypillia culture of modern-day northeastern Romania and Ukraine were also practicing cremation rituals as early as approximately 5500 BC. Some cremations begin to be found in the Proto-Lusatian and Trzciniec culture.
    Urnfield culture had also numerous pile dwellings on lakes of southern Germany and Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

    Long barrows examples developed in Iberia and western France during the mid-fifth millennium BCE. The tradition then spread northwards, into the British Isles and then the Low Countries and Southern Scandinavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_barrow

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    New article
    '' We can clearly see the development of the production industry from the studies that have been carried out about 3,000 to 3,500 years ago, and this wave of entry is from the Ukrainian regions, the so-called Jamna culture areas. ''
    Wax adds that it is interesting to note that the migration study shows the direction of the culture of the producer farm directly from the Black and Caspian Sea steppe zones: '2900. the year before our era is the time when, in the eastern Baltic, we already have cattery and battle axes with their producing farms, and it's most interesting that
    ''now, with the help of genetics, it has been discovered, however, that these entrants come from the steppes, from the southeast. There was no such clarity before, opinions shared. ''
    Researchers call the territory of Latvia the crossroads of ancient inhabitants, but the results also provide an overview of the migration of indigenous peoples in this part of Europe, which, for some reason, bypasses the territory of Latvia.
    The main findings of the internationally appreciated international study on Latvia are that the manufacturing industry came from the south-east, not from the south-west, as it has been thought to date; while the arrival of the Baltic tribes is due to the late Neolithic (around 2900 BC) and not to the earlier times.
    https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/dzive--sti...puses.a306562/

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    So gene spread was not via taiga or tundra
    Abstract
    While the series of events that shaped the transition between foraging societies and food producers are well described for Central and Southern Europe, genetic evidence from Northern Europe surrounding the Baltic Sea is still sparse. Here, we report genome-wide DNA data from 38 ancient North Europeans ranging from ~9500 to 2200 years before present. Our analysis provides genetic evidence that hunter-gatherers settled Scandinavia via two routes. We reveal that the first Scandinavian farmers derive their ancestry from Anatolia 1000 years earlier than previously demonstrated. The range of Mesolithic Western hunter-gatherers extended to the east of the Baltic Sea, where these populations persisted without gene-flow from Central European farmers during the Early and Middle Neolithic. The arrival of steppe pastoralists in the Late Neolithic introduced a major shift in economy and mediated the spread of a new ancestry associated with the Corded Ware Complex in Northern Europe.
    .....
    two Eastern Baltic individuals associated with the Mesolithic Kunda Culture show a very close affinity to WHG in all our analyses (Fig. 2, Supplementary Figs. 1 and 2), with a significant contribution from ANE, as revealed by negative admixture f3 results involving a Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer from Switzerland, most closely related to WHG, and populations containing ANE ancestry
    ......
    Archaeological evidence supports that the site Kivutkalns, which is represented by 10 of our individuals, was a major bronze-working centre located on a trade route that opened to the Baltic Sea on the west and led inland following the Daugava river31, where contact to surrounding populations might have been common.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9
    Last edited by Norvila; 21-01-19 at 08:01.

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    With the Byzantine-Baltic contacts, the spread of the prestigious military fashion was possibly related and they can have been realized via Central Europe, the famous ‘Amber Route’ and further on through the system of the circumBaltic riverine and sea routes.
    https://www.academia.edu/37839606/Ka...B4%D0%BE%D0%B2

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    “dialects often show similarities along traditional traveling routes such as the great rivers in Northern Sweden, which start in the mountains at the Norwegian border and then follow a South-Easterly path towards the Bothnian Sea.“ Pettersson (1996)
    Dipthongisation of languages occurred in whole Baltic sea region from the south of Schlezwig to the north of Botnia supposing because of the trading contacts
    https://books.google.lt/books?id=PBK...sation&f=false

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    "The Estonian first farmers of Corded Ware culture show high similarity in their autosomes with European hunter-gatherers, Steppe Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations, and European Late Neolithic/Bronze Age populations, while their X chromosomes are in addition equally closely related to European and Anatolian and Levantine early farmers. These findings suggest that the shift to intensive cultivation and animal husbandry in Estonia was triggered by the arrival of new people with predominantly Steppe ancestry but whose ancestors had undergone sex-specific admixture with early farmers with Anatolian ancestry."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28256537

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    From Caucasus to Lithuania?
    Conclusion
    Analysis of the allele frequency of GJB2 gene mutations revealed a high proportion of c. 313_326del14 (rs111033253) mutations in the GJB2-positive group suggesting its possible origin in Lithuanian forebears.
    The allele frequency of c.35delG mutation (64.7 %) is consistent with many previously published studies in groups of affected individuals of Caucasian populations.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4761217/

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