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Thread: Atlantean origin of R1b? RH Negative Blood, Redhair/Celts, Survivor Civilisation.

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    Atlantean origin of R1b? RH Negative Blood, Redhair/Celts, Survivor Civilisation.

    With the highest concentration of RH Negative blood, and R1b being found on the Western most parts of the British Isles (Ireland, Wales, Scottish Highlands etc...), could there be evidence that instead of the commonly held migration from the Middle-East theory (which may well be the case, but could still be in addition to already existing R1b Atlantean survivors around Ireland and England/Scotland), that survivors of Atlantis spread out accross the globe, with some traveling to Egypt, some to South America, and yet some landing on the British Isles?

    With recent evidence/data corresponding to the cataclysmic meteor/comet impact on the icecaps of Greenland dating to around 11,000-12,000 years ago, putting it directly in-line with Plato's account of Atlantis' destruction/sinking, also corroborating with the timeline for the end of the last Ice-Age, and a rapid rise of sea-levels by around 400m (virtually overnight), I'd say this is a very plausible theory that deserves to be taken seriously.

    When we consider that the largest and most impressive megalithic structures on the planet, are all the oldest, and that the oldest mummies and preserved remains in disparate parts of the globe, from China, to Egypt are tall, white (r1b), fair or red-haired peoples (Celts), usually in the most decorative and prestigious tombs. Of course we also see white/caucasion images in the Egyptian glphys, alongside black (Nubian) brown, and even Chinese/Asian types.


    With King Tutankhamen being found to have r1b DNA, as well as many of the Kings and Queens of Egypt, they also practised incest and would not mix, indicating that they were trying to preserve their rare and ancient DNA/lineage, perhaps from the time of Atlantis, and the golden age of civilisation (Age of Leo, also a plausible dating for the construction of The Sphinx due to it's incredible alignments if constructed at 10,500 BC).


    Anyway; although this is usually an archaeological/anthropological topic, I would love to hear from those who are well-read in the fields of DNA/genetics for their opinions.


    Many thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    With the highest concentration of RH Negative blood, and R1b being found on the Western most parts of the British Isles (Ireland, Wales, Scottish Highlands etc...), could there be evidence that instead of the commonly held migration from the Middle-East theory (which may well be the case, but could still be in addition to already existing R1b Atlantean survivors around Ireland and England/Scotland), that survivors of Atlantis spread out accross the globe, with some traveling to Egypt, some to South America, and yet some landing on the British Isles?........................

    Many thanks!
    A few points of interest.
    King Tut's result's were never made officially public[why?], I'm sure they could do a re-test if they were not satisfied of his lineage. There was obviously an interest in this dynasty- dna; was it was first tested way back in 1968/1969. I think it was something like A2rh-
    https://jomarchant.com/390/tracking-...ce-of-king-tut
    https://www.nature.com/articles/224325b0

    If A2rh- might also be connected with groups from the Steppe. Middle East samples have not yielded very much in the way of rh negative marker. This can be seen in following blog with regards to blood types[see reference below]. There was a huge male turnover for whatever reason in the British Isles (Ireland, Wales, Scottish Highlands etc...
    If you skip to 48:48 you can see the timing and demographic magnitude of the R1b male turnover-


    https://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/...ancient-europe











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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Personally, I' m sure all that is rubbish, or let's choose a less agressive word...
    some peculiarities in modern pops in the genes distribution are come from diverse horizons, before to know in the same place some selective pressure(s) concerning independantly the most of these genes (except linkage).
    Some repeated different dramatic events could be chozen to illustrate the same traditional myth, sometimes.
    I hope I 'll not pass for a negative forumer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    A few points of interest.
    King Tut's result's were never made officially public[why?], I'm sure they could do a re-test if they were not satisfied of his lineage. There was obviously an interest in this dynasty- dna; was it was first tested way back in 1968/1969. I think it was something like A2rh-
    https://jomarchant.com/390/tracking-...ce-of-king-tut
    https://www.nature.com/articles/224325b0

    If A2rh- might also be connected with groups from the Steppe. Middle East samples have not yielded very much in the way of rh negative marker. This can be seen in following blog with regards to blood types[see reference below]. There was a huge male turnover for whatever reason in the British Isles (Ireland, Wales, Scottish Highlands etc...
    If you skip to 48:48 you can see the timing and demographic magnitude of the R1b male turnover-


    https://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/...ancient-europe











    Interesting, I wonder why then there are so many more recent articles claiming King Tutankhamen and his relatives have R1b DNA? Including having a whole Discovery Channel documentary produced to share the "fact". We also of course know that there were "blonde" haired and red haired people and Pharaoh's in Ancient Dynastic Egypt (Ramses II was red haired, the deity Seth was also red haired etc...)

    What is your opinion on the appearance of tall, white, red-haired mummies being found in ancient Egypt and ancient China?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    Interesting, I wonder why then there are so many more recent articles claiming King Tutankhamen and his relatives have R1b DNA? Including having a whole Discovery Channel documentary produced to share the "fact". We also of course know that there were "blonde" haired and red haired people and Pharaoh's in Ancient Dynastic Egypt (Ramses II was red haired, the deity Seth was also red haired etc...)

    What is your opinion on the appearance of tall, white, red-haired mummies being found in ancient Egypt and ancient China?
    The case of ancient egypt is not interesting because we dont have any conclusions from the scientific community. The Tarim Mummies in China are in the contrary clearly linked with Eastern Europe were migrations from Eastern Europe to Siberia already from 3000BC in Afanasievo Culture shows us migration link between Europe to China. As far as Atlantide... R1b was not in the British Islands until the Bell Beaker Culture migrations. Previous people from the British Islands were mainly I2a2 the same as today and I2a1-Isles the same found in Mesolithic Scandinavia. Red hairs probably were in British Islands and Eastern Europe already very early, and red hairs could have come to middle-east and egypt with R1b-V88 migrations from somwhere north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The case of ancient egypt is not interesting because we dont have any conclusions from the scientific community. The Tarim Mummies in China are in the contrary clearly linked with Eastern Europe were migrations from Eastern Europe to Siberia already from 3000BC in Afanasievo Culture shows us migration link between Europe to China. As far as Atlantide... R1b was not in the British Islands until the Bell Beaker Culture migrations. Previous people from the British Islands were mainly I2a2 the same as today and I2a1-Isles the same found in Mesolithic Scandinavia. Red hairs probably were in British Islands and Eastern Europe already very early, and red hairs could have come to middle-east and egypt with R1b-V88 migrations from somwhere north.

    Thanks for the information, although red-hair in Eastern Europe is not very common, especially compared to it's occurrence in Ireland and Scotland. Also perhaps red-haired Egyptian mummies are not of interest to you, but they are fascinating to me, considering their contemporary importance as found by the means and grandeur of their burials. Also Ramses II was red-headed, the Egyptian deity Seth was red-headed, many Pharaohs had red-hair and Caucasian features.

    Mainstream scientific consensus changes from decade to decade, so to await their "conclusions" is hardly something I take much heed to. Mainstream archaeology/history is fighting a losing battle in trying to keep the 100 year old model of human-history from being changed, as the entire academia and educational systems would have to be completely re-structured, sites like Gobekli Tepe, and The Sphinx's astronomical alignment and erosion patterns provide evidence of advance civilisations going back far further than the mainstream established time-frames.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    Thanks for the information, although red-hair in Eastern Europe is not very common, especially compared to it's occurrence in Ireland and Scotland. Also perhaps red-haired Egyptian mummies are not of interest to you, but they are fascinating to me, considering their contemporary importance as found by the means and grandeur of their burials. Also Ramses II was red-headed, the Egyptian deity Seth was red-headed, many Pharaohs had red-hair and Caucasian features.

    Mainstream scientific consensus changes from decade to decade, so to await their "conclusions" is hardly something I take much heed to. Mainstream archaeology/history is fighting a losing battle in trying to keep the 100 year old model of human-history from being changed, as the entire academia and educational systems would have to be completely re-structured, sites like Gobekli Tepe, and The Sphinx's astronomical alignment and erosion patterns provide evidence of advance civilisations going back far further than the mainstream established time-frames.
    Red Hair is dominant in Eastern European tribes like the Uralian Udmurts, wich are told to be the " highest red haired people in the world ". Also Red Hair, even if not as common than the British Islands, are common into Slavic people from Balkans and Eastern Europe. As for Ancient Egypt, Ramses 2 is dead at 92 years old, do you know any 92 years old with Red Hairs? It was with a good certainy some Henné or substance who tainted his hair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Red Hair is dominant in Eastern European tribes like the Uralian Udmurts, wich are told to be the " highest red haired people in the world ". Also Red Hair, even if not as common than the British Islands, are common into Slavic people from Balkans and Eastern Europe. As for Ancient Egypt, Ramses 2 is dead at 92 years old, do you know any 92 years old with Red Hairs? It was with a good certainy some Henné or substance who tainted his hair.
    Yes, but he was a natural red head. That isn't up for debate, the French analysed him in I think the 70s and even though his hair was dyed, it was without a doubt naturally red.

    Skoglund is doing DNA analysis of Egyptian mummies atm - though I doubt he'll get his hands on Ramses. Would be interesting to see if there was an incursion of CHG at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Yes, but he was a natural red head. That isn't up for debate, the French analysed him in I think the 70s and even though his hair was dyed, it was without a doubt naturally red.

    Skoglund is doing DNA analysis of Egyptian mummies atm - though I doubt he'll get his hands on Ramses. Would be interesting to see if there was an incursion of CHG at some point.
    I think that's likely to be up to debate. I'm not sure what kind of analysis in the 70's coming from French could conclude his hair colors.

    And there was already a study of ancient egypt that shows an increase of CHG.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The colour of Egyptian red hair I find is not the same type of red one would find amongst eastern or Western Europe. It reminds me of a rarer and more unique colour of darker auburn red found in modern Polynesia. A couple families in New Zealand and on Rapa Nui have this deeper brownish-red tone as well as some incan and pre-Incan Peruvian mummies. I’d wager this type of red hair is completely genetically different than that found in Europe. I don’t mean to say the Egyptian hair is of this same type but perhaps there have been several different types of more archaic red hair going deep into antiquity. The european brighter red being fairly modern in comparison?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hulnistunazii View Post
    The colour of Egyptian red hair I find is not the same type of red one would find amongst eastern or Western Europe. It reminds me of a rarer and more unique colour of darker auburn red found in modern Polynesia. A couple families in New Zealand and on Rapa Nui have this deeper brownish-red tone as well as some incan and pre-Incan Peruvian mummies. I’d wager this type of red hair is completely genetically different than that found in Europe. I don’t mean to say the Egyptian hair is of this same type but perhaps there have been several different types of more archaic red hair going deep into antiquity. The european brighter red being fairly modern in comparison?
    You are going way too far in your hypothesis, it's simply Henné.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    You are going way too far in your hypothesis, it's simply Henné.
    Not in all cases, both sometimes it’s both. Ramses II had dyed red hair that was naturally red anyway in his youth.

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    R1b has nothing to do with Atlantis. R1b is most definitely the product of Indo-European success in Europe. R1b that is present in Africa (Chad, etc) is probably due to an earlier back-migration that predates any IE people.

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    Ah, my totally pet theory is that it was an Indo-European sortie, coming through the Caucasus, that destroyed both Tell Hamouker near the upper Tigris River and Maadi on the lower Nile around 3,500 BC. Both were major early trading centers. Expansion of Uruk (for Hamouker) and Naqada (for Maadi) cultures is usually blamed for the destruction, but, in either case, nobody really knows. Could have been how red hair genes were inserted into the Nile Valley.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Not in all cases, both sometimes it’s both. Ramses II had dyed red hair that was naturally red anyway in his youth.
    I wonder what techniques were available (and how reliable they were) in the 1970s to evaluate the natural hair color of someone who had grey/whitish hair and was 92 years old when he died (so he had most probably lost his entire natural pigmentation by then, he wasn't a man in his 50s or 60s). I don't like to dismiss all scientific studies made many decades ago as "outdated", but in such matters that involve human anthropology I think the advances of the last 30 years (and the comparably primitive technologies that existed until then) should be a cause for some caution in the interpretation of those studies.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by SYNCHRONIC View Post
    With the highest concentration of RH Negative blood, and R1b being found on the Western most parts of the British Isles (Ireland, Wales, Scottish Highlands etc...), could there be evidence that instead of the commonly held migration from the Middle-East theory (which may well be the case, but could still be in addition to already existing R1b Atlantean survivors around Ireland and England/Scotland), that survivors of Atlantis spread out accross the globe, with some traveling to Egypt, some to South America, and yet some landing on the British Isles?

    With recent evidence/data corresponding to the cataclysmic meteor/comet impact on the icecaps of Greenland dating to around 11,000-12,000 years ago, putting it directly in-line with Plato's account of Atlantis' destruction/sinking, also corroborating with the timeline for the end of the last Ice-Age, and a rapid rise of sea-levels by around 400m (virtually overnight), I'd say this is a very plausible theory that deserves to be taken seriously.

    When we consider that the largest and most impressive megalithic structures on the planet, are all the oldest, and that the oldest mummies and preserved remains in disparate parts of the globe, from China, to Egypt are tall, white (r1b), fair or red-haired peoples (Celts), usually in the most decorative and prestigious tombs. Of course we also see white/caucasion images in the Egyptian glphys, alongside black (Nubian) brown, and even Chinese/Asian types.


    With King Tutankhamen being found to have r1b DNA, as well as many of the Kings and Queens of Egypt, they also practised incest and would not mix, indicating that they were trying to preserve their rare and ancient DNA/lineage, perhaps from the time of Atlantis, and the golden age of civilisation (Age of Leo, also a plausible dating for the construction of The Sphinx due to it's incredible alignments if constructed at 10,500 BC).


    Anyway; although this is usually an archaeological/anthropological topic, I would love to hear from those who are well-read in the fields of DNA/genetics for their opinions.


    Many thanks!
    There is just no evidence that: 1) Atlantis even existed; 2) that, if it did, Atlantis was located somewhere in Western Europe; 3) that, if it existed somewhere in Western Europe, it was really very advanced, and not just comparably advanced for the standards of primitive civilizations; 4) that R1b as a whole (as opposed to some specific subclades of it) is strongly associated with red hair; 5) that R1b was present in any high frequency anywhere in Western Europe until the Bronze Age (until now AFAIK virtually no R1b of the modern clades of Europe, almost all of which derive from R1b-M269, appeared in any ancient West European DNA before ~2500 BC); 6) that the supposed R1b (was it confirmed really? I don't know) in Tutankhamen belonged to the same lineages found extensively in Western Europe; 7) that the rise of sea-levels was "virtually overnight", or rather the evidences are totally contrary to that, that it was a really rapid though varying process for geological standards, but still took many centuries to complete; 8) that King Tutankhamen and other New Kingdom pharaohs of Egypt belonged to the same royal lineages that were responsible for the first dynasties and the nascent civilization of Old Egypt.

    In my opinion that hypothesis is based on very weak and arguable foundations.

    Btw, the Tarim Basin mummies have nothing to do with the Han Chinese civilization that arose hundreds of kilometers to their east and started to expand from a completely different area and direction. They just lived in the modern territiory of the state called China and probably interacted occasionally with the ancestors of the Sinitic/Han civilization. That's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    There is just no evidence that: 1) Atlantis even existed; 2) that, if it did, Atlantis was located somewhere in Western Europe; 3) that, if it existed somewhere in Western Europe, it was really very advanced, and not just comparably advanced for the standards of primitive civilizations; 4) that R1b as a whole (as opposed to some specific subclades of it) is strongly associated with red hair; 5) that R1b was present in any high frequency anywhere in Western Europe until the Bronze Age (until now AFAIK virtually no R1b of the modern clades of Europe, almost all of which derive from R1b-M269, appeared in any ancient West European DNA before ~2500 BC); 6) that the supposed R1b (was it confirmed really? I don't know) in Tutankhamen belonged to the same lineages found extensively in Western Europe; 7) that the rise of sea-levels was "virtually overnight", or rather the evidences are totally contrary to that, that it was a really rapid though varying process for geological standards, but still took many centuries to complete; 8) that King Tutankhamen and other New Kingdom pharaohs of Egypt belonged to the same royal lineages that were responsible for the first dynasties and the nascent civilization of Old Egypt.

    In my opinion that hypothesis is based on very weak and arguable foundations.

    Btw, the Tarim Basin mummies have nothing to do with the Han Chinese civilization that arose hundreds of kilometers to their east and started to expand from a completely different area and direction. They just lived in the modern territiory of the state called China and probably interacted occasionally with the ancestors of the Sinitic/Han civilization. That's it.
    I know, right???? Even if such a place did exist, its inhabitants would be GREEK! By the books, it was thought to exist along the gulf of Laconia (quite a distance from Ireland ;)).
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I know, right???? Even if such a place did exist, its inhabitants would be GREEK! By the books, it was thought to exist along the gulf of Laconia (quite a distance from Ireland ;)).
    One of the K36 calculators gives us the coordinates (Lat/Long.) of our main Ancestry.
    I ended up in the middle of the Ocean.
    I figured: That's where Atlantis is.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Yes, but he was a natural red head. That isn't up for debate, the French analysed him in I think the 70s and even though his hair was dyed, it was without a doubt naturally red.

    Skoglund is doing DNA analysis of Egyptian mummies atm - though I doubt he'll get his hands on Ramses. Would be interesting to see if there was an incursion of CHG at some point.
    If it helps, there are plenty of red headed Syrians and even Lebanese, to the extend that after so many years of encountering them I'm still surprised these features have survived.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well im still not at all convinced that R1b could not have been present in britain before 2500 bc.
    It could come down simply to burial practice alone.
    Experts are still just finding out that britain has been under credited and were far from inept like
    with been told, their's advanced settlements and boat building 10,000 years old.
    Could be they were cremating or some type of boat/sea burial ?
    Then their's the flood that wipes the slate clean 6000 bc ?

    Its clear as day for me stonehenge dates to the date of the so called totem pole which is in fact a
    crane for lifting 2 ton blocks off of boats in the river. 8500 bc.

    So atlantis/atlantic was right here on the coast of north western europe, thats why we still call it that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O Neill View Post
    Well im still not at all convinced that R1b could not have been present in britain before 2500 bc.
    It could come down simply to burial practice alone.
    Experts are still just finding out that britain has been under credited and were far from inept like
    with been told, their's advanced settlements and boat building 10,000 years old.
    Could be they were cremating or some type of boat/sea burial ?
    Then their's the flood that wipes the slate clean 6000 bc ?
    Well, how convenient is that, isn't it? If nobody finds anything, one just claims oh it must be because the flood wiped the slate clean and the people just burned all possible evidences of their presence in Britain, yet suddenly they decided to change and appear in the archeological record after 2500-2300 BC. Interesting.


    Btw I know of no archeologically proven "advanced settlements" in Britain before the Neolithic era or even later ("advanced" for their time, if you meant "advanced" as in "Iron Age civilization stage" Britain was a really latecomer). As for boat building, Austronesians and particularly among them the Polynesians colonized the entire Pacific Ocean thousands of years ago, yet they didn't need to create an advanced and very complex civilization for that. Efficient boat building and navigation do not mean a lot.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Always a lot of bizarre threads on this forum. Quite entertaining, if nothing else.

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    If refugees from Atlantis did settle in Britain, you would expect records describing advanced Atlantian civilization and tech in ancient Britain, right? Did these refugees suddenly forget how to rebuild their cities and technical structures when they arrived there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
    Always a lot of bizarre threads on this forum. Quite entertaining, if nothing else.

    If you have nothing to add, then perhaps best not to add anything. Derogatory remarks do not help anyone, you may think you are boosting your ego by putting others down, but you are in-fact harming yourself more than those you target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    If refugees from Atlantis did settle in Britain, you would expect records describing advanced Atlantian civilization and tech in ancient Britain, right? Did these refugees suddenly forget how to rebuild their cities and technical structures when they arrived there?

    We have plenty of "records" in the form of the myths and legends of ancient Ireland.

    For instance, the mythical island to the West of Ireland called Brasil, or Hy-Brasil (similar to the land of Hypoborea that the Ancient Greeks spoke of, possibly the North or South Pole continents pre-Ice Age (they speak of eternal daytime etc... as those parts of the globe are prone to during half of the year).

    We also have the "God-like" super natural race of peoples called the Tuath De Danan (possible connection to the tribe of Dan from Israel, also etomologically linked with "Denmark" (D*n also represents Dan in the Hebrew language). As with similar myths from across the globe, they were bringers of knowledge, namely architecture, technology, language, astrology etc... the same as is described in Mesopotamia, South America, Egypt, etc...


    If we are to follow the dates ascribed by modern geological findings (meteor impact circa 10,500 BC) and Plato's date of Atlantis sinking of the exact same time-frame as the meteor impact and end of the last Ice Age/Younger Dryas Impact event, this is a long time for buildings to have been destroyed, buried, or re-purposed over times by later civilisations/cultures, whether invading or local movements of peoples.

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