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Thread: Elba, the first Mesolithic woman found in Spain

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Elba, the first Mesolithic woman found in Spain

    Experts reconstruct the last day of Elba, the pastoralist of the Mesolithic of O Courel

    elba la pastora.jpg

    https://cadenaser.com/programa/2017/...72_986461.html

    Elba is the first woman dated from the Mesolithic found in Spain. She was Galician, with dark eyes and hair and, for more information, lactose intolerant. It was supposedly dedicated to herding and today it would be about 9,300 years old.

    Elba's ncomplete skull appeared in 1996 and the other bones were found in several expeditions since 2010. The tests carried out on the remains with carbon 14 revealed that it is 9,300 years old and the food allergy it suffered.

    His punished bones reveal that this female who only measured five feet (and who supposedly worked with huge animals) led a very hard life. That probably in childhood had suffered a strong blow to the head that caused a head injury. That he fed poorly, with long periods of scarcity. He suffered from osteoarthritis and surely endured strong dental pain for months before his death. I mostly ate vegetables. And for the collagen it is known that it was not exactly from the area, but from some rather close granitic territory. It was an autochthonous Galician, linked with other remains found in the north of Portugal.

    The genetic analysis showed that she was a woman with dark eyes and hair, lactose intolerant, belonging to haplogroup U, characteristic of European hunter-gatherers, and in particular to subhaplotype U5b1, originated in the Iberian Peninsula 16,000 or 20,000 years ago.

    The research, which has lasted more than 10 years, has been updated as technological advances emerged that allowed improving the way of working. The importance of this finding is the oldest western sample studied in Europe: "It is an exceptional finding because it is normal to find burials and in this case we have found a woman who was working".

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    Attachment 10574
    The poetess Rosalía de Castro

    I do not know to what extent the vision and cultural information that the specialists who reconstruct a face thousands of years ago can influence and how it can influence them when it comes to doing so.

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    Mesolithic and Pastoralism in the same context? I'm confused?

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    It looks like the only real component here is the Cranial Cavity, you cannot deduce the low part of the face only with that... It looks pretty weird, the Jaw is almost too smooth and those cheekbones...

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Mesolithic and Pastoralism in the same context? I'm confused?
    "He also allegedly traveled with the three uros that formed his flock, a huge adult specimen with an antlers more than two meters and two younger ones that were not offshoots of the first"

    Apparently in the hole next to her there were 3 uros, reason why they must have deduced that it was his flock, since if the two scions were not children of the adult bull it had to be a herd. I do not know, I have to meditate.

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    I live in the same area where Elba lived... you can find faces today just like hers everywhere in that area, it´s incredible. The roof of a hidden cave collapsed when she and the aurochs passed over, she was crushed by one of them and died there, near the limit between actual Galicia and Leon.

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    [QUOTE = Davidtab; 562001] Vivo en la misma área donde vivía Elba ... puedes encontrar caras hoy como las de ella en todas partes en esa área, es increíble. El techo de una cueva oculta se derrumbó cuando ella y los uros pasaron por alto, fue aplastada por uno de ellos y murió allí, cerca del límite entre la actual Galicia y León. [/CITAR]

    Evidently if in the reconstruction of an unconscious way they have recreated the face of Rosalía de Castro it is evident that at the moment you are going to find many similar women in the zone.

    Postdata: Do not you put the Spanish flag in your presentation?

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    Being galician obviously I'm spanish, in other words, I'm proudly spanish because I'm proudly galician. The very best is always plusses identities, not exclude. So the flag is the galician one, which specifies more in a web like this.

    Elba's face is similar to a lot of women from northwestern Iberia, even everywhere in Southwestern Europe. Even with fairer skin, fairer hair and green or blue eyes, she would be similar to many women over the land she lived.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Poor woman. I'm surprised that as a Mesolithic woman she ate mostly vegetables. Perhaps they were having trouble hunting the aurochs and smaller game?

    So much for how great it was to live as a hunter-gatherer. There's been so much romanticization of ancient peoples in this hobby, including farmers and steppe peoples.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Don't you guys think the reconstructed face looks a bit too like many modern Iberian women for it to be a precise and likely image of hers? Her skin complexion also looks a bit too light for me, I think that moderately light, olive-skinned tone would be found in EEF, but not in WHG like her (I'd expect WHG to not be as dark as that reconstruction of the Cheddar Man, but kind of as dark as modern Yemenis or Pakistanis). As Carlos said, I have some doubt if the scientists who made the reconstruction could avoid being unconsciously influenced by what they preconceived as the looks an ancient Galician woman would have.

    As for the herding and flock thing, I'm honestly very confused by that conclusion. Couldn't she be just chasing and leading wild herds to trap and kill them, like Amerindian tribes did with bisons and so on?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Don't you guys think the reconstructed face looks a bit too like many modern Iberian women for it to be a precise and likely image of hers? Her skin complexion also looks a bit too light for me, I think that moderately light, olive-skinned tone would be found in EEF, but not in WHG like her (I'd expect WHG to not be as dark as that reconstruction of the Cheddar Man, but kind of as dark as modern Yemenis or Pakistanis). As Carlos said, I have some doubt if the scientists who made the reconstruction could avoid being unconsciously influenced by what they preconceived as the looks an ancient Galician woman would have.

    As for the herding and flock thing, I'm honestly very confused by that conclusion. Couldn't she be just chasing and leading wild herds to trap and kill them, like Amerindian tribes did with bisons and so on?
    Completely agree as to both points. That's why all these reconstructions have to be taken with a grain of salt. In particular, some Europeans have a great deal of trouble accepting that all their ancestors weren't fair skinned. There were, of course, no WHG pastoralists.

    The picture was no longer available, so here it is:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Don't you guys think the reconstructed face looks a bit too like many modern Iberian women for it to be a precise and likely image of hers? Her skin complexion also looks a bit too light for me, I think that moderately light, olive-skinned tone would be found in EEF, but not in WHG like her (I'd expect WHG to not be as dark as that reconstruction of the Cheddar Man, but kind of as dark as modern Yemenis or Pakistanis). As Carlos said, I have some doubt if the scientists who made the reconstruction could avoid being unconsciously influenced by what they preconceived as the looks an ancient Galician woman would have.

    As for the herding and flock thing, I'm honestly very confused by that conclusion. Couldn't she be just chasing and leading wild herds to trap and kill them, like Amerindian tribes did with bisons and so on?
    I completely agree with this comment.

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    The cheekbones maybe put them in the corner hairdresser injecting industrial silicone, then became independent and vegan and the uros had them as pets.

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    @YGorcs
    as a whole her reconstructed face is very 'cromagnon'like, was is not astonishing for that time - but if present today among Iberian women (and elsewhere), it's not the kind of face which makes the majority there. Maybe Galicia shows a bit more than the Spanish mean, here I'm not sure.
    @Halftap
    If you 're right, and I fear it's the case, it's poor science; yes, indeed, this kind of molding is not inducing onebody to confidence...

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    To Ygorcs (again): nevertheless, as a whole I agree with your post.

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    ElbaUro2.jpeg

    He estado trabajando unas pocas horas sobre cómo sería esta mujer (Elba). Ha tomado un tiempo, pero cuando se ha demostrado, ha sido una experiencia increíble. Miles de años observándolos, disfruten de la oportunidad.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Carlos; 30-12-18 at 06:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Don't you guys think the reconstructed face looks a bit too like many modern Iberian women for it to be a precise and likely image of hers? Her skin complexion also looks a bit too light for me, I think that moderately light, olive-skinned tone would be found in EEF, but not in WHG like her (I'd expect WHG to not be as dark as that reconstruction of the Cheddar Man, but kind of as dark as modern Yemenis or Pakistanis). As Carlos said, I have some doubt if the scientists who made the reconstruction could avoid being unconsciously influenced by what they preconceived as the looks an ancient Galician woman would have.

    As for the herding and flock thing, I'm honestly very confused by that conclusion. Couldn't she be just chasing and leading wild herds to trap and kill them, like Amerindian tribes did with bisons and so on?
    I mean they likely have influenced by modern europeans or themselves... You have to choose over the bias to represent it like you know your surrendings, or to represent it like the Cheddar Man, wich for me looks like an highly exageration. We dont have autosomal dna from her i guess, so it doesn't matter that much. I guess, her complexion would have looked as the one from many Iberians till today, some Portuguese and Spanish people look like Indians or Pakistanese, but when you asked them, they are not aware of any kind of Indian ancestry so, might be it. Something like this: https://c7.alamy.com/comp/BPCJKY/an-...ind-BPCJKY.jpg

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    `^^
    With so much immigration we have from Pakistanis, there are also very good Hindus in bed, I have never confused them with my countrymen, but it does happen that some of them could pass for a Spanish or a Swiss, they are one among a million but there are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I mean they likely have influenced by modern europeans or themselves... You have to choose over the bias to represent it like you know your surrendings, or to represent it like the Cheddar Man, wich for me looks like an highly exageration. We dont have autosomal dna from her i guess, so it doesn't matter that much. I guess, her complexion would have looked as the one from many Iberians till today, some Portuguese and Spanish people look like Indians or Pakistanese, but when you asked them, they are not aware of any kind of Indian ancestry so, might be it. Something like this: https://c7.alamy.com/comp/BPCJKY/an-...ind-BPCJKY.jpg
    Beside we don't know if she is partly tanned, what is often the case among Mediterraneans, this pretty young wife you show with your link doesn't evocate basic Indians nor Pakistanis, rather a typical 'atlanto-mediter' type - I hope she is a Portuguese example you propose here!?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Beside we don't know if she is partly tanned, what is often the case among Mediterraneans, this pretty young wife you show with your link doesn't evocate basic Indians nor Pakistanis, rather a typical 'atlanto-mediter' type - I hope she is a Portuguese example you propose here!?!
    The exemple was relative to the skin complexion i would imagine for some prehistoric Europeans, not about the Indian / Pakistanese phenotype. Dark features are a dominant gene, so if prehistoric europeans were like the cheddar man reconstruction, this complexion should have survived till today. Or are we gonna call to a WHG mass extinction who replaced dark features with faired ones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The exemple was relative to the skin complexion i would imagine for some prehistoric Europeans, not about the Indian / Pakistanese phenotype. Dark features are a dominant gene, so if prehistoric europeans were like the cheddar man reconstruction, this complexion should have survived till today. Or are we gonna call to a WHG mass extinction who replaced dark features with faired ones?
    Are you ever going to read the papers on pigmentation? Until you do you're going to post silly comments like these.

    Wait, I looked for some papers to help you by checking the search engine and I find you've been schooled repeatedly on this subject without evident benefit.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-pigmentation

    Skin pigmentation is a polygenic trait. There are snps for de-pigmentation, like SLC24A5, SLC45A2, some forms of TYR and MCIR, OCA2, HERC2 etc. and snps which result in very dark pigmentation. To my knowledge the WHG did not have the ones which result in extremely dark skin, but the only skin de-pigmentation gene for which they test positive is HERC 2, which causes blue eyes and also has some role to play in general skin pigmentation.

    Any decent forensic prediction algorithm chooses the most informative snps (with the biggest effect) and can tell you with very great accuracy whether the person whose dna was sampled is fair, medium or dark skinned. By those tests, the WHG were darker than the Anatolian farmers. I doubt they were black, however.

    Regardless, their dark skin didn't survive in Europe because of SELECTION. Have you ever heard of it? It's part of this thing called EVOLUTION. Do us all a favor and go back and read the Mathiesen et al paper. Let me give you a hint. A 60% WHG/EEF hybrid could have inherited all the depigmentation snps of both parents, and would thrive better than a pure WHG with only HERC2. Is the light starting to dawn?

    If that's too much for you, think of it this way: Let's say a Nigerian slave is impregnated by her owner (and a Nigerian is undoubtedly darker than any WHG), and let's further say that her descendants are also mated only with Irish and Scottish and English colonists. By the time you have a descendant who is only, say, 20% WHG, what color do you think they'll be?

    Modern Spaniards have a lot of the de-pigmentation snps introduced into Europe by both the EEF and EHG. That they would be as dark as the WHG is highly unlikely.

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    just a point, on the general ground:
    1- genetic dominance doesn't implies numeric dominance - It's implies (and here I'm not sure that dominance applies everytime) only that in an heterozygotic couple of alleles, the dominant one will impose its effects - in Northern Europe we see very numerous recessive genes and their percentages allow homozygoty often enough to produce effect: high frequence of light pigmentation - only selective pressure has the big role here -
    2- it's true that very often the "good" alleles tend to be dominant genetically but it's not always the case (see other old threads about selection) and a "good gene" here can be a "bad gene" there -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    just a point, on the general ground:
    1- genetic dominance doesn't implies numeric dominance - It's implies (and here I'm not sure that dominance applies everytime) only that in an heterozygotic couple of alleles, the dominant one will impose its effects - in Northern Europe we see very numerous recessive genes and their percentages allow homozygoty often enough to produce effect: high frequence of light pigmentation - only selective pressure has the big role here -
    2- it's true that very often the "good" alleles tend to be dominant genetically but it's not always the case (see other old threads about selection) and a "good gene" here can be a "bad gene" there -
    Indeed, and that's why in equatorial Africa you don't have people with a full complement of de-pigmentation snps, and why in Europe you don't have people with SSBI, conferring very dark skin.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Are you ever going to read the papers on pigmentation? Until you do you're going to post silly comments like these.

    Wait, I looked for some papers to help you by checking the search engine and I find you've been schooled repeatedly on this subject without evident benefit.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-pigmentation

    Skin pigmentation is a polygenic trait. There are snps for de-pigmentation, like SLC24A5, SLC45A2, some forms of TYR and MCIR, OCA2, HERC2 etc. and snps which result in very dark pigmentation. To my knowledge the WHG did not have the ones which result in extremely dark skin, but the only skin de-pigmentation gene for which they test positive is HERC 2, which causes blue eyes and also has some role to play in general skin pigmentation.

    Any decent forensic prediction algorithm chooses the most informative snps (with the biggest effect) and can tell you with very great accuracy whether the person whose dna was sampled is fair, medium or dark skinned. By those tests, the WHG were darker than the Anatolian farmers. I doubt they were black, however.

    Regardless, their dark skin didn't survive in Europe because of SELECTION. Have you ever heard of it? It's part of this thing called EVOLUTION. Do us all a favor and go back and read the Mathiesen et al paper. Let me give you a hint. A 60% WHG/EEF hybrid could have inherited all the depigmentation snps of both parents, and would thrive better than a pure WHG with only HERC2. Is the light starting to dawn?

    If that's too much for you, think of it this way: Let's say a Nigerian slave is impregnated by her owner (and a Nigerian is undoubtedly darker than any WHG), and let's further say that her descendants are also mated only with Irish and Scottish and English colonists. By the time you have a descendant who is only, say, 20% WHG, what color do you think they'll be?

    Modern Spaniards have a lot of the de-pigmentation snps introduced into Europe by both the EEF and EHG. That they would be as dark as the WHG is highly unlikely.
    Yes and then just another post, another girl wich is mostly EEF was rethought to have dark complexion than previously thought no? So if we apply the rule of Numbers and Farmers outnumbered completely HG's, she cannot be mostly EEF and at the same time Darker than other EEF individuals that were mostly Light featured. Truth dont always come from Science... Selection and Evolution cannot explain by themselves the extinction of a dark complexion like some African one, into an entire population. Point is, we are talking about a population wich evolved in cold Europe for millenia, where was the selection and evolution process if they were extremelly dark featured? Natufians wich were in actual Levant, wich at their time was a Tropical Semi-Desert had mostly Light Features no? Instead of read papers individually and get their conclusion on their own, you should make a general and pluridisciplinary conclusion. If you can then found a reason for every solutions, you probably are the closest of the reality. If something seems odd in the conclusion, it then might be that the general rules cannot be applied on everything. The fact is that WHG individuals according Genetiker ( and i know you dont take his work for granted at all ) were mostly Medium Dark skinned with only a minority of individuals Dark Dark skinned. Also i dont really understand why you give me the Fire Headed thread, he seems to have a mixed view over the question of the prehistoric dark complexion conclusion.

    Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis

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    Let's take this one at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Yes and then just another post, another girl wich is mostly EEF was rethought to have dark complexion than previously thought no? So if we apply the rule of Numbers and Farmers outnumbered completely HG's, she cannot be mostly EEF and at the same time Darker than other EEF individuals that were mostly Light featured.
    What girl? What on earth are you talking about? Who cannot be mostly EEF?

    Truth dont always come from Science...
    So what does it come from then? The fevered and illogical speculations of practically analphabet people? Received wisdom from on high? PLEASE.

    Selection and Evolution cannot explain by themselves the extinction of a dark complexion like some African one, into an entire population. Point is, we are talking about a population wich evolved in cold Europe for millenia, where was the selection and evolution process if they were extremelly dark featured?
    The closest the scientists have come to explaining it is diet, i.e. if you get your vitamin D from a lot of fish and the livers of lots of animals you don't need to lighten as much. Look, the scientists may discover tomorrow some gene present in the WHG which made them fair skinned, and that's fine with me. This is a nonsensical thing to get exercised about...the only people to whom it matters so much are usually racists of one form or another. Of course, if that does turn out to be the case, then why has selection continued up to the very present. You don't understand it, but the selection can be SEEN in what happens in the genes over time. SELECTION exists and it operates strongly over these modern de-pigmentation snps.
    Natufians wich were in actual Levant, wich at their time was a Tropical Semi-Desert had mostly Light Features no?
    No, they didn't. READ the damn papers.
    The fact is that WHG individuals according Genetiker ( and i know you dont take his work for granted at all ) were mostly Medium Dark skinned with only a minority of individuals Dark Dark skinned.
    You know what? Don't bother reading any papers. You don't understand or remember what you read, clearly. I never, ever, said they were dark, dark, skinned. I said that according to what we know so far they were darker skinned than the Anatolian farmers.

    Also i dont really understand why you give me the Fire Headed thread, he seems to have a mixed view over the question of the prehistoric dark complexion conclusion.
    I knew it. Either you didn't read the whole thread or you didn't understand it. His argument was demolished.

    That's it. It's not worth it. I'm out.

    Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis

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