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Thread: Paleo Balkan Languages

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    Paleo Balkan Languages



    Location in 1st Century BC

    [IMG][/IMG]


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Location in 1st Century BC

    [IMG][/IMG]
    In what scientific discoveries is this map based on ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leutrim View Post
    In what scientific discoveries is this map based on ?
    I saw it on Lazaridis' twitter.

    This is the source:
    https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/201...CE%B5%CF%82-1/

    Is it incorrect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I saw it on Lazaridis' twitter.

    This is the source:
    https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/201...CE%B5%CF%82-1/

    Is it incorrect?
    From what I can see through google translating this blog, its not an official opinion but that of a blogger. He seems to have devoted an entire blog post about how Delmetae (Dalmatians) etymology doesn't come
    from Albanian "Delme" (Sheep) and he uses Vladimir Orels opinion on the etymology to argue that. I will say that his opinion on the etymology of Delme is extremely speculative and so can hardly be used as an argument
    to say something so sure. Especially since the archeological record of Dalmatia shows lots of sheep rearing.

    From translating his responses to comments he just seems to evade or not adress the Albanian question, despite 4 different threads posted on the Illyrian question.

    So i would take this map with a grain of salt about how accurate or reflective of reality it is.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    https://www.academia.edu/10694330/_I...phic_discourse
    ‘ Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse ( 2014 )
    .
    .
    .
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0105090
    Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers
    .
    .
    .
    http://ialbania.com/ebook.pdf
    The title of the book Epirotes -the Albanians of antiquity is borrowed from the Theodor Mommsen’s definition of Epirotes
    in Römische Geschichte.
    .
    .
    there is a spanish presentation paper on the ydna markers of the illyrian tribes
    .
    .
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...yptian_descent
    .
    .
    There seems to be too many different references to who the illyrians are ........there is clearly no mention of the term illyrians by the tribes themselves ..........even the Great Illyrian revolt only had tribes .
    from Dalmatia and Pannonia
    .
    .
    IMO, since I recently presented the census of Rome on the numbers of different Illyrian tribes , of which the Dalmatians had over 55% , then to me , these Dalmatians are the "first illyrians" ......and as we know they came to dalmatia from modern southern Austria
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    https://www.academia.edu/10694330/_I...phic_discourse
    ‘ Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse ( 2014 )
    .
    .
    .
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0105090
    Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers
    .
    .
    .
    http://ialbania.com/ebook.pdf
    The title of the book Epirotes -the Albanians of antiquity is borrowed from the Theodor Mommsen’s definition of Epirotes
    in Römische Geschichte.
    .
    .
    there is a spanish presentation paper on the ydna markers of the illyrian tribes
    .
    .
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...yptian_descent
    .
    .
    There seems to be too many different references to who the illyrians are ........there is clearly no mention of the term illyrians by the tribes themselves ..........even the Great Illyrian revolt only had tribes .
    from Dalmatia and Pannonia
    .
    .
    IMO, since I recently presented the census of Rome on the numbers of different Illyrian tribes , of which the Dalmatians had over 55% , then to me , these Dalmatians are the "first illyrians" ......and as we know they came to dalmatia from modern southern Austria
    Here we go again.

    That paper supposedly on "Illyrian ydna" first of all is from an Italian group, not a Spanish one, and second, is of modern dna, and third and for good measure is only 12 strs:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...yptian_descent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    From what I can see through google translating this blog, its not an official opinion but that of a blogger. He seems to have devoted an entire blog post about how Delmetae (Dalmatians) etymology doesn't come
    from Albanian "Delme" (Sheep) and he uses Vladimir Orels opinion on the etymology to argue that. I will say that his opinion on the etymology of Delme is extremely speculative and so can hardly be used as an argument
    to say something so sure. Especially since the archeological record of Dalmatia shows lots of sheep rearing.

    From translating his responses to comments he just seems to evade or not adress the Albanian question, despite 4 different threads posted on the Illyrian question.

    So i would take this map with a grain of salt about how accurate or reflective of reality it is.

    When I see Lazaridis name in publications don't even try to read what he is trying to say! He is largely in line with Greek government propaganda, and is making up stuff to make that propaganda look true. In one of his publications he was claiming that Peloponnesus is largely Greek continuity when DNA traces are clearly showing at least 30% Slavic, and autosomal Greeks are not even Balkan people

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    Like you would be able to judge his work. He is so much more intelligent than you are that you might as well be part of two different species.

    Btw, it's not even his work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Here we go again.

    That paper supposedly on "Illyrian ydna" first of all is from an Italian group, not a Spanish one, and second, is of modern dna, and third and for good measure is only 12 strs:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...yptian_descent
    I did not place the Spanish one yet .............you are confused
    The Spanish one is from 2007

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Offcourse,

    Dal-mat,

    Dals = sea, als = sea

    comprare makedonian language, Hesychius, Δαλ-αγχαν = sea



    GUYS

    I am tired of Stupidity and LIES,

    LETS SEE,

    STRABO 7 7 8
    Appianos civil wars 2.9


    want more?

    I sugest search why malcom's Noel's book is considered trash,
    what he hide in his book at 1990's



    DAL-MATia = sea lands according Hesychius and NW Greek dialects or maybe Brygian.
    compare Mat-Dei-a Ematheia Gods lands
    Mat or Mati is a toponym used even today for land limits,
    and has nothing to do with Albanian Delme,

    according Hesychius Dalaghan = sea in Makedonian language (NW Greek dialects) Δαλ-αγχαν

    If Ptolemy is right,
    Then Albanopolis is today Greece W Makedonia
    and Skodra is a dwelling of Daco-Thracians known as Germidawa


    Appianus believes that Epidamnos, later Dyrrachium was a connection among Greek and Brygians,
    he believes that Dyrrachium before taulantes was inhabited by Brygians,

    The last of Brygians are mentioned at Lychnitis lake (Ohrid) and at Mygdonians, 2 powerfull places of Makedonian Kingdom,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    That was funny to read to say the least. ;D

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    I can't believe that you are fighting for Greek Vs Albanian, when ONU tries to make most of Non-Europeans, Europeans. We can say that you all have the sense of priority.

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    Well if you feel the need to hide your identity and culture, it's maybe because you are scared of politics. Wich is laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I can't believe how in the XXI century we are discussing about Anonymous authors. We have various Anonymous, the Anonymous of Wikipedia, this infinite number of anonymous bloggers, etc. We have various Medieval chronicles that for different reasons are called Anonymous. For example the cover was torn apart and we don't know who are the authors of those chronicles, etc. But in the XXI century? For what reason someone have to hide his identity in our days? Because there is an agenda behind his "scientific work". Unfortunately some people consider all this as SCIEEENCE.
    BTW, we have different priorities here in Balkans.
    One can discuss discuss anonymous writings on their own merits. Dienekes is a great example of an anonymous amateur who figured a great many things out while most established academics were still stumbling in the dark.

    That doesn't mean that academic accomplishment, peer review etc. aren't usually reasonable indicators of quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I saw it on Lazaridis' twitter.

    This is the source:
    https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/201...CE%B5%CF%82-1/

    Is it incorrect?
    I do not see English translations from this,however is a good thread to discuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Location in 1st Century BC

    [IMG][/IMG]
    I think this map is largely based on previous linguists in the field,for example the division of "Illyrian" into two groups from Radoslav Katicic Dalmatian-Pannonian and Illyrian proper.Paeonian seem very much close to Thracian.Moesian or Daco-Moesian was Georgiev dialect grouping i guess who arguess that Dacian and Thracian were different languages.

    So i really do not see anything bad in this map,since is mostly based on other linguists opinions.

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    I can't believe people are discussing Dienekes and other bloggers as scientists (and not amateur but perhaps knowledgeable people who comment on scientific works), whereas they just ignore or dismiss (of course, only the others must have agendas) the papers written by actual scientists. Maybe it's comforting to believe that all the evidences that do not confirm their expectations are only the product of agenda-driven anonymous amateurs...

    P.S.: I have no horse in this Balkanic horse race, I actually find much of it very petty and kind of ludicrous from an external, "New World" perspective (perhaps more cynical due to our much more recent and thus much more well known convoluted history), since people seem to claim a direct, pure, totally unmixed and untainted connection between specific modern nations and very specific aspects of people who lived in the same area (or, preferably, in even broader areas, that sounds grander, doesn't it?) millennia ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    I think this map is largely based on previous linguists in the field,for example the division of "Illyrian" into two groups from Radoslav Katicic Dalmatian-Pannonian and Illyrian proper.Paeonian seem very much close to Thracian.Moesian or Daco-Moesian was Georgiev dialect grouping i guess who arguess that Dacian and Thracian were different languages.

    So i really do not see anything bad in this map,since is mostly based on other linguists opinions.
    I also see no major problem in the map even to the point of view of Albanian nationalists (though of course it may be a bit unreliable and get things wrong here and there, with borders receding or advancing more than they should). On a broad scale I think it's well within the understanding of many professional linguists. It seems to me some people just thought that labeling Dalmatian-Pannonian as a separate category implied it was not an Illyrian language, but that is not what that means. It's just that some linguists believe there was a northern branch of dialects (Dalmatian-Pannonian) and a southern one ("Illyrian proper" in this map). And the reach of Illyrian in the map extends to most of Albania, so I don't know what triggered the usual people so much (because the dark blue color didn't take the entire territory of present-day Albania perhaps?). The eastern presence of Illyrian also under direct influence (or maybe partial confluence, a close sprachbund) with Moesian and Thracian in the area around Kosovo/Southern Serbia also fits what linguists have thought likely in the ancient Balkans.

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    @Ygorcs

    We do not know who is behind blogs,
    only what is written, and all we can do is find if it is true/correct or not.

    @milan

    you want an english translation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I can't believe people are discussing Dienekes and other bloggers as scientists (and not amateur but perhaps knowledgeable people who comment on scientific works), whereas they just ignore or dismiss (of course, only the others must have agendas) the papers written by actual scientists. Maybe it's comforting to believe that all the evidences that do not confirm their expectations are only the product of agenda-driven anonymous amateurs...
    Dienekes was mentioned by me in this thread, but not as a scientist, but as the symbol of a category of people who have chosen anonymity. The reasons why these people have opted to remain anonymous can be different. For example, some things that can not be said by people with names and surnames because in this case the risk is too big, are said through these anonymous bloogers, and then come "the real scholars" that attract the public's attention on the theories of these individuals or organizations hidden behind these pseudonyms. Let's make an agreement, let's leave this category of these illustrious anonymous people out of the talk. Let's concentrate on the work of the people who put their name taking all the consequences, first of all in respect to the second category.
    BTW, who are these scientists who are ignored, can you give some examples and what agenda are you talking here?

    P.S.: I have no horse in this Balkanic horse race, I actually find much of it very petty and kind of ludicrous from an external, "New World" perspective (perhaps more cynical due to our much more recent and thus much more well known convoluted history), since people seem to claim a direct, pure, totally unmixed and untainted connection between specific modern nations and very specific aspects of people who lived in the same area (or, preferably, in even broader areas, that sounds grander, doesn't it?) millennia ago.
    You are totally wrong and this due to the fact that you are from "New World" and you do not really know the reality in this part of the world. Exactly because due to our much more recent and thus much more well known convoluted history, we can`t find much of it very petty and kind of ludicrous from an internal perspective. Some of these so-called scholars remind us of the Nazi "scholars" who traveled the world by measuring the skulls to find the perfect race. And i am sure that you know the reasons of their interest about this kind of things.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    The massive expansion of the Yamnaya tribes to the N,NW,W,and more or less mingling with the locals ,had led to the creation of the Corded Ware culture.



    From a certain period,most of the IE efforts were probably concentrated in the area of the Corded Ware,the power that they gained with this massive expansion is demonstrated by the conquest of lot of the original Yamnaya land.
    In the Central European part,SW of the Corded Ware,some of the tribes managed to remain quite originally Steppe,R1b,before they were later integrated; Unetice was clearly formed in the CW territory, Urnfield and the Amber road from the Baltic to South -Central Europe,Italy prove these connections.




    CW further expanded to SE,forming the Sintashta and Abashevo,Indo-Iranian cultures,that's why it is safe to say that this culture was a second homeland for the IE people.



    Linguistically we have to see a certain degree of standardization, at least some strong ties in this space,and,since I'm talking about a migration here,some loss of the original IE terms also.



    For example, the specific connections between Baltic and both Latin or Sanskrit.




    Since Paleo-Balkanics seem to come from the Catacomb, Babyno,ultimately from Yamnaya, their languages have probably preserved some earlier IE words,traits, common with the ones that have the same," direct" ,steppe origin, from the approx. same period,Bell Beaker looks like an option here.



    But the Beakers and other R1b tribes were assimilated into the CW-based populations,such as Latins,Celts,Germanic.




    That's why this Beaker or generally Danubian Yamnaya IE substratum of the Western Centum has to be analyzed, I'd search into Ancient Iberian languages too or in the IE ,not Latin,loans of the Basque,still,these common words have to be specific, not Pan-Corded Ware.
    Last edited by Dreptul Valah; 28-12-18 at 20:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I also see no major problem in the map even to the point of view of Albanian nationalists (though of course it may be a bit unreliable and get things wrong here and there, with borders receding or advancing more than they should). On a broad scale I think it's well within the understanding of many professional linguists. It seems to me some people just thought that labeling Dalmatian-Pannonian as a separate category implied it was not an Illyrian language, but that is not what that means. It's just that some linguists believe there was a northern branch of dialects (Dalmatian-Pannonian) and a southern one ("Illyrian proper" in this map). And the reach of Illyrian in the map extends to most of Albania, so I don't know what triggered the usual people so much (because the dark blue color didn't take the entire territory of present-day Albania perhaps?). The eastern presence of Illyrian also under direct influence (or maybe partial confluence, a close sprachbund) with Moesian and Thracian in the area around Kosovo/Southern Serbia also fits what linguists have thought likely in the ancient Balkans.
    Again you are wrong. But first i am curious what you in the "New World" know about the point of view of Albanian nationalists?
    Anyway, the discussion here is not about Albanian nationalists. Here we are discussing about a map that remind us the map used to illustrate an chauvinistic Greek ideology called Megali Idea, so it`s greek nationalism.
    And when someone ask:
    Quote Originally Posted by Leutrim View Post
    In what scientific discoveries is this map based on ?
    Here arrive the answer:
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I saw it on Lazaridis' twitter.

    This is the source:
    https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/201...CE%B5%CF%82-1/

    Is it incorrect?
    After that Lazaridis & Co solved through the genetics the problem of the white pages of Greek history, demonstrating the continuity of the Greek nation, something that is not accepted by the theory that sees the chain of this continuity broken at least three times, they have decided to expand their interest outside national borders.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Location in 1st Century BC

    [IMG][/IMG]
    I think it's very hard to know which languages were spoken in the Balkans 2000 or more years ago. There were probably more languages and dialects than are now. From tribe to tribe, languages were different in some degree?

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    Pg.67,Yamnaya, Catacomb,Babyno,have the same rite,barrow,sunken graves



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    https://books.google.ro/books?id=QGF...tacomb&f=false

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Again you are wrong. But first i am curious what you in the "New World" know about the point of view of Albanian nationalists?
    Anyway, the discussion here is not about Albanian nationalists. Here we are discussing about a map that remind us the map used to illustrate an chauvinistic Greek ideology called Megali Idea, so it`s greek nationalism.
    My view about these discussions as "petty" is not tied to Albanian nationalism at all, but with all the quarrels ("Balkanic" or not) about very minor stuff (e.g. if a certain tradition first started in this or that ethnic group, if a certain ethnicity 1000 or 2000 years ago lived in this or that tiny piece of land, if the reach of a certain ancient tribe/ethnicity extended or retreated a few kilometers here and there, if a certain specific word came into or from this or that language...). Everything descends into a sort of ethnic dispute as if those people had invisible and impenetrable borders between themselves, and it's not just a matter of cultural/historic curiosity, it's seen as a real competition with a very real prize. For me all of that sounds like a waste of time and a (perhaps willful) ignorance about how dynamic, mixed and complex the formation of the culture, genetics and traditional territories of modern ethnicities certainly were (even when their "core" root can be dated to a very long time ago), especially in a region with such a huge background of population movements and interactions such as the Balkans.

    When I commented about a "New World perspective", I meant that perhaps we're just much more aware of the fact that we just can't pretend we have any pure connection to any ancient people, that we've borrowed lots of stuff not just from ethnic groups that admixed into the modern populations (but also from total foreigners via cultural diffusion), and just can't trace all our traditions, genes and (particularly) modern state/ethnic territories back to one specific root many centuries ago (and cling to it as if our modern nation's existence depended on it), because the sociocultural dynamics were not just historically recent, but also profoundly disruptive - so there is just no illusion that what we see around us is directly tied to some people who lived in the same region 2000 years ago, and we just couldn't care less if "our" people or another people occupid this or that piece of land several centuries ago, because we accept the fact that political, social and cultural dynamics are always changing borders, ethnic identities and so on.

    All I see in most "Balkanic quarrels" is a lot of people projecting present-day rivalries and ethnic distinctions back into the remote past, claiming a direct and intact connection with very old populations, trying to extend the past reach of their ethnic groups as much as possible (inevitably leading to conflicts with other people who have the same aim) and fervorously believing that it's very relevant to prove that this or that tradition/land/word/person/anything "rightfully belongs" to their people. I find it pretty petty though I understand that sometimes it's really hard not to get into that game when you see nationalists of all stripes and nations making hyperbolic or downright stupid claims that negate part of another people's history.

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