Paleo Balkan Languages

[gidai]

Fortunately, there is an old written record by Theofilact of Simocatta (570-640), of an expression spoken in his parental language by a local soldier dealing with the transportation of the supplies of the Byzantine army in 587 during a campaign against avars (near Haemus mountins, Moesia). He cried loudly " Torna, torna, fratre ! " to his comrade who was dropping off the supplies on the road, fallen apart without knowing. In Romanian it can be said: Intoarna, intoarna, frate !
This expression means in English: Come back, come back, brother !

p.s. This expression was recorded because it was not correctly understood by other soldiers who began to scream at each other, thought they were attacked. The turmoil and confusion created frightened and led to the withdrawal of both Byzantine and Avars armies who ran away from each other.

 

[Salento]

Oh Boy...........

I need to understand something.

(no politics, please)

- How much Balkan are the Greeks.

- What kind of Balkans.

- How many types of Greek subgroups are there.

- How much Balkans were the Greeks settlers of Magna Grecia.

- Is there a big difference between Medieval Greeks and Olders.


On the web, I find a lot of opinions presented as facts.
Is getting difficult to filter out bias.

 

[markod]

I need to understand something.
(no politics, please)
- How much Balkan are the Greeks.
- What kind of Balkans.
- How many types of Greek subgroups are there.
- How much Balkans were the Greeks settlers of Magna Grecia.
- Is there a big difference between Medieval Greeks and Olders.
On the web, I find a lot of opinions presented as facts.
Is getting difficult to filter out bias.

A distinct Balkan category doesn't really exist. It's something that was entirely made up by commercial DNA testing companies.
As it stand, contemporary Peloponnese Greeks look like Myceneans with additional northern admixture.

 

[Gash]

..........

 

[Angela]

I have deleted the worst of the off topic, provocative, and disruptive posts.

If this behavior continues I will close the thread.

 

[gidai]

Fortunately, there is an old written record by Theofilact of Simocatta (570-640), of an expression spoken in his parental language by a local soldier dealing with the transportation of the supplies of the Byzantine army in 587 during a campaign against avars (near Haemus mountins, Moesia). He cried loudly " Torna, torna, fratre ! " to his comrade who was dropping off the supplies on the road, fallen apart without knowing. In Romanian it can be said: Intoarna, intoarna, frate !
This expression means in English: Come back, come back, brother !

p.s. This expression was recorded because it was not correctly understood by other soldiers who began to scream at each other, thought they were attacked. The turmoil and confusion created frightened and led to the withdrawal of both Byzantine and Avars armies who ran away from each other. /QUOTE]
Someone disagree but did not give any reason for that.
This is the passage in Theophylactus Simocatta's "Histories".

Unfortunately, I do not know the Greek language to translate, so I copied it as such. A connoisseur of the Greek language can confirm what I say?

 

[Yetos]

Die Welt: Greeks are NOT REAL Greeks ​

​

​

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Journalist Berthold Seewald, editor of the cultural history in "Die Welt" newspaper, in an article entitled "History before Tsipras: Greece has broken even earlier the order in Europe", said that today's Greeks are descendants of Slavs, Byzantine and Albanians.

According to the journalist, Greece ruined the peace order established in Europe in the Congress of Vienna in 1815 after the fall of Napoleon. Seewald says that one of the reasons for this behavior of the Greeks is that they are not really European, "Shqiptarja" reports.

"The idea that modern Greeks are descendants of Socrates and Pericles and not a mix of Slavic, Byzantine and Albanians is a tenet in the education system in Europe," he writes.

His analysis is based on the book of Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer, who said that, based on Slavic and Albanian names - among other information - "Hellenic race has disappeared from Europe" and that "no pure Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population in modern Greece ". /Albeu.com/

Published on: July 19, 2015 - 2:26 pm​

​

Why is the infraction for Angela? The article was on the Conservative German magazine called die welt. You have to learn to live with the truths other people say, not only Lazaridis says. Lasaridis says today Greeks are exactly the one who were in antiquity, but obviously many people, including Germans of Die welt do not agree.

WOW,

A fantastic arguement, about the palaio-balkan languges,

 

[Yetos]

Fortunately, there is an old written record by Theofilact of Simocatta (570-640), of an expression spoken in his parental language by a local soldier dealing with the transportation of the supplies of the Byzantine army in 587 during a campaign against avars (near Haemus mountins, Moesia). He cried loudly " Torna, torna, fratre ! " to his comrade who was dropping off the supplies on the road, fallen apart without knowing. In Romanian it can be said: Intoarna, intoarna, frate !
This expression means in English: Come back, come back, brother !

p.s. This expression was recorded because it was not correctly understood by other soldiers who began to scream at each other, thought they were attacked. The turmoil and confusion created frightened and led to the withdrawal of both Byzantine and Avars armies who ran away from each other. /QUOTE]
Someone disagree but did not give any reason for that.
This is the passage in Theophylactus Simocatta's "Histories".
View attachment 10584
Unfortunately, I do not know the Greek language to translate, so I copied it as such. A connoisseur of the Greek language can confirm what I say?

'torna' as far as I know means turn around, here possible meaning is turn around and come back.
sometimes also means get cover, or change mind, or give shape,
it is rather imperative form -a
sometimes is used for women, when shake their bottom round and round as tourla,

torno is the techique/machine of give form to materials by spin, turning them round

Greek τορνος virb τειρω
Latin tornus virb tornare
etc in other IE languages, turn, tournaiz
IE form *terh[SUB]1
[/SUB]
it could be the root of the word tourism, and also could be in Romanian
as also the root for the word troulos, the round top of temples.

 

[halfalp]

Well if you feel the need to hide your identity and culture, it's maybe because you are scared of politics. Wich is laughable.

Wow, who would downvote a message about not be scared about your identity? Is this Oregon?

 

[gidai]

Ce naiba este cu voi, frate? What the hell is it with you, brothers?

You remind me of the childhood games in which we shared in a few armies all the boys on a block of ladder and we were fighting with swords made of cardboard and other nonsense. Sometimes I feel that way.

 

[halfalp]

Ce naiba este cu voi, frate? What the hell is it with you, brothers?

You remind me of the childhood games in which we shared in a few armies all the boys on a block of ladder and we were fighting with swords made of cardboard and other nonsense. Sometimes I feel that way.

Are you actually saying that you do not enjoy a good fight?

 

[gidai]

Are you actually saying that you do not enjoy a good fight?

Yes. But some would assume that we are mature.

 

[gidai]

Fortunately, there is an old written record by Theofilact of Simocatta (570-640), of an expression spoken in his parental language by a local soldier dealing with the transportation of the supplies of the Byzantine army in 587 during a campaign against avars (near Haemus mountins, Moesia). He cried loudly " Torna, torna, fratre ! " to his comrade who was dropping off the supplies on the road, fallen apart without knowing. In Romanian it can be said: Intoarna, intoarna, frate !
This expression means in English: Come back, come back, brother !

p.s. This expression was recorded because it was not correctly understood by other soldiers who began to scream at each other, thought they were attacked. The turmoil and confusion created frightened and led to the withdrawal of both Byzantine and Avars armies who ran away from each other.

'torna' as far as I know means turn around, here possible meaning is turn around and come back.
sometimes also means get cover, or change mind, or give shape,
it is rather imperative form -a
sometimes is used for women, when shake their bottom round and round as tourla,

torno is the techique/machine of give form to materials by spin, turning them round

Greek τορνος virb τειρω
Latin tornus virb tornare
etc in other IE languages, turn, tournaiz
IE form *terh[SUB]1
[/SUB]
it could be the root of the word tourism, and also could be in Romanian
as also the root for the word troulos, the round top of temples.

... Or maybe it is a testimony of the type of language spoken south of the Danube between Tracia and Dacia?

 

[Nik]

I need to understand something.

(no politics, please)

- How much Balkan are the Greeks.

- What kind of Balkans.

Like markod said, the Balkan part is a made up thing but you can find data online to see how similar they are with the neighbours, which is to be expected for any ethnic group in the world.

- How many types of Greek subgroups are there.

Well I can't really give a number, but every region has it's differences as it's only natural. What I can is that Makedonia and and Thrace are locals with quite a lot (in my opinion) of Slavic admixture, which decreases as you go South. Epirus (especially the Greek part) has some quite surprisingly high Slavic ydna (R1a and I2a) while the rest is very Albanian-like for the most part.

Attica and Peloponnese received a lot of more Northern Balkan admixture from millions of medieval Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, so that easily explains the Mycenaean + Northern shift, but for that I "blame" specifically the Vlachs and Slavs as Albanians wouldn't really make a huge a impact. The southernmost part of Mani being the least affected and the one closest to South Italy, so even though there were Albanian settlements there it won't really show because South Italy also received their small share of Albanians whose numbers won't affect the results at all.

From the most recent study if I remember correctly it's the Greek islanders that are closest to South Italians and Sicilians, a feature I always believed it came even before the settlement of Greeks in Magna Grecia.

- How much Balkans were the Greeks settlers of Magna Grecia.

As I said in my previous post, both Greece and South Italy absorbed Balkan tribes like the Messapians, Apulians, Liburnians, Sicels and Sicani (possibly), Chaonians, Hylleans, Brygians, Thracians, etc., so I don't the medieval Greeks were that much different from the medieval South Italians to begin with and the inhabitants of Mani could be the proof of that.

The only different thing they actually brought was a different Hellenic dialect.

- Is there a big difference between Medieval Greeks and Olders.

Naturally there should be a difference, but I wouldn't call it big. Every region in the Balkans became from Northern shifted even if they were affected exclusively by their more northern compatriots.

Obviously the correct answer would be "we'll never know until we have 1000 ancient Greek samples" but I personally don't believe in the extinction of Ancient Greeks and their total replacement by Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, Turks, etc. If that were really the case there would be no Greek phenotype but rather a Albanian-Bulgarian mix which is not the case unless you talk only about specific Northern regions.

 

[Angela]

Like markod said, the Balkan part is a made up thing but you can find data online to see how similar they are with the neighbours, which is to be expected for any ethnic group in the world.


Well I can't really give a number, but every region has it's differences as it's only natural. What I can is that Makedonia and and Thrace are locals with quite a lot (in my opinion) of Slavic admixture, which decreases as you go South. Epirus (especially the Greek part) has some quite surprisingly high Slavic ydna (R1a and I2a) while the rest is very Albanian-like for the most part.

Attica and Peloponnese received a lot of more Northern Balkan admixture from millions of medieval Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, so that easily explains the Mycenaean + Northern shift, but for that I "blame" specifically the Vlachs and Slavs as Albanians wouldn't really make a huge a impact. The southernmost part of Mani being the least affected and the one closest to South Italy, so even though there were Albanian settlements there it won't really show because South Italy also received their small share of Albanians whose numbers won't affect the results at all.

From the most recent study if I remember correctly it's the Greek islanders that are closest to South Italians and Sicilians, a feature I always believed it came even before the settlement of Greeks in Magna Grecia.


As I said in my previous post, both Greece and South Italy absorbed Balkan tribes like the Messapians, Apulians, Liburnians, Sicels and Sicani (possibly), Chaonians, Hylleans, Brygians, Thracians, etc., so I don't the medieval Greeks were that much different from the medieval South Italians to begin with and the inhabitants of Mani could be the proof of that.

The only different thing they actually brought was a different Hellenic dialect.


Naturally there should be a difference, but I wouldn't call it big. Every region in the Balkans became from Northern shifted even if they were affected exclusively by their more northern compatriots.

Obviously the correct answer would be "we'll never know until we have 1000 ancient Greek samples" but I personally don't believe in the extinction of Ancient Greeks and their total replacement by Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, Turks, etc. If that were really the case there would be no Greek phenotype but rather a Albanian-Bulgarian mix which is not the case unless you talk only about specific Northern regions.

A very thoughtful and well reasoned post. Thank you Nik.

 

[davef]

I second that, Nik! Great job on that post!

 

[Salento]

Me three, thanks Nik and Markod.
A very clear explanation.

 

[Yetos]

@ Nik

Although I keep my precautions,

The generic idea of what I read in your post is this,
correct me if wrong,

There is no pure 'race' today in Balkans,
some spoted tiny areas might have higher levels of certain 'race'
Roman occupation and Slavic invasions shifted population to a more Central Europe and North mark,
as also change populations to different cultures (Antes) (Byzantium)

that is a fact. nobody can disagree,

But I doupt about the R1a in Central Greece being new from Slavic invasions,
I believe existed there the times of Dorians and Greek unification.
let me keep my precautions in that,


Nik
All nations today in Aimos peninsula are new, are Neo-nations
all created after the Roman soup,
by Slavic invasions,collapse of East Roman empire, Latinocracy era, Ottoman empire, even Austro-Hungarian empire
and the new Unification movements in balkans, sprung after Greek revolt, the earliest in Balkans.
call us Neo-Greeks, we do not mind, we are,

 

[blevins13]

@ Nik

Although I keep my precautions,

The generic idea of what I read in your post is this,
correct me if wrong,

There is no pure 'race' today in Balkans,
some spoted tiny areas might have higher levels of certain 'race'
Roman occupation and Slavic invasions shifted population to a more Central Europe and North mark,
as also change populations to different cultures (Antes) (Byzantium)

that is a fact. nobody can disagree,

But I doupt about the R1a in Central Greece being new from Slavic invasions,
I believe existed there the times of Dorians and Greek unification.
let me keep my precautions in that,


Nik
All nations today in Aimos peninsula are new, are Neo-nations
all created after the Roman soup,
by Slavic invasions,collapse of East Roman empire, Latinocracy era, Ottoman empire, even Austro-Hungarian empire
and the new Unification movements in balkans, sprung after Greek revolt, the earliest in Balkans.
call us Neo-Greeks, we do not mind, we are,

Dream Kacifas, dream about R1a been in central Greece all along (Slavic R1a) ....nations in Illyrian Peninsula are very old....states like neo- greece are young.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Nik]

@ Nik

Although I keep my precautions,

The generic idea of what I read in your post is this,
correct me if wrong,

There is no pure 'race' today in Balkans,
some spoted tiny areas might have higher levels of certain 'race'
Roman occupation and Slavic invasions shifted population to a more Central Europe and North mark,
as also change populations to different cultures (Antes) (Byzantium)

that is a fact. nobody can disagree,

I don't know what you intend by 'race', but we are indeed Europeans and Caucasians. Perhaps you mean subraces, like Dinaric, Mediterranean, Alpine, Baltic, etc. in which again we Balkanites are a blend of them all, some more and some less in specific ones.

Well yeah, the invaders came from the North, so people obviously were forced to go South. Later on of course there were movements in all directions but not as dramatic as a bunch of barbarians chasing you for being Roman/non-Slavic lol

I can speak about Albanians that the majority of us have a more Northern origin than our current location and the 37 markers dna test seem to support that. We mostly replaced each other with the final destinations being Greece and then from there to Italy.

Greeks did the same by going to Italy, so there you have a Northern shift without even having to include Slavs and Vlachs as a factor.

But I doupt about the R1a in Central Greece being new from Slavic invasions,
I believe existed there the times of Dorians and Greek unification.
let me keep my precautions in that,

Nik
All nations today in Aimos peninsula are new, are Neo-nations
all created after the Roman soup,
by Slavic invasions,collapse of East Roman empire, Latinocracy era, Ottoman empire, even Austro-Hungarian empire
and the new Unification movements in balkans, sprung after Greek revolt, the earliest in Balkans.
call us Neo-Greeks, we do not mind, we are,

Personally, I wish that was the case but the R1a is mostly of recent North-East European origin not the ancient one that was found in the Thracian.

If anyone is curious enough, go and check the Albanian bloodline group and notice how in the Minorities section the vast majority of Greeks and Vlachs are I2a-Din and R1a, yet they're the most hardcore Greeks.

About the neo-nations, Yes and No. There have been Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Croatians for 1000 years or more but of course you can't expect Albanians for instance to have been strong and numerous enough to compete with the Byzantine or Ottoman Empire and remain completely independent inside a nation called specifically Albania. Unless Neo means 2000 years or less than yes, we are all neo nations but not so neo people.

In the end, it's the people that matter even though politics and religion are known to have manipulated people's decisions in the Balkans.

Personally, I'm only interested in the people not the nation or the language. Those can be changed easily just like political parties or football clubs. Look at the guy in your picture for example, reddish beard, Albanian looking, radical Greek, all is missing is a genetic test and if he ends up being I2a and R1a like most, it would be the perfect script for a comedy movie on the Balkans.