Paleo Balkan Languages

[gidai]

An observation... This topic was about old languages from Balkans. Otherwise.... other interesting discussions, but too much not to the subject.

 

[Nik]

An observation... This topic was about old languages from Balkans. Otherwise.... other interesting discussions, but too much not to the subject.

Take it as an explanation of how paleo balkan languages either moved South or were lost to Latin and Slavic nowadays.

The map itself is not the best and nor can any map be perfect, but it gives an idea. I think the Moesian part relies heavily on the later Roman divisions.

An improvement would be for example to use gradual colour changes from Dacian to Pannonian to Dalmatian to "Proper" Illyrian, and from Thracian to Dardanian/Moesian to "Proper Illyrian". Similarly he could have applied this with Thracian, Paeonian, all the way down to Pella in Makedonia.

 

[gidai]

Fortunately, there is an old written record by Theofilact of Simocatta (570-640), of an expression spoken in his parental language by a local soldier dealing with the transportation of the supplies of the Byzantine army in 587 during a campaign against avars (near Haemus mountins, Moesia). He cried loudly " Torna, torna, fratre ! " to his comrade who was dropping off the supplies on the road, fallen apart without knowing. In Romanian it can be said: Intoarna, intoarna, frate !
This expression means in English: Come back, come back, brother !

p.s. This expression was recorded because it was not correctly understood by other soldiers who began to scream at each other, thought they were attacked. The turmoil and confusion created frightened and led to the withdrawal of both Byzantine and Avars armies who ran away from each other.

As I say, I can understand these words " Torna, torna, fratre ! " spoken in the sixth century even now because of the similarity to the words in the Romanian language. It is like a (paleo)Romanian for me.
I searched with Google for similar words in other languages spoken in the area, and found a similarity only for the word FRATRE, in the following languages: Bulgarian, Serbian and Macedonian. This word is брат.

 

[Yetos]

As I say, I can understand these words " Torna, torna, fratre ! " spoken in the sixth century even now because of the similarity to the words in the Romanian language. It is like a (paleo)Romanian for me.
I searched with Google for similar words in other languages spoken in the area, and found a similarity only for the word FRATRE, in the following languages: Bulgarian, Serbian and Macedonian. This word is брат.

@ gidai

Frate means brother

simmilar IE
Italian Fratelli
Greek Φρατηρ Frater
etc etc, is IE, just IE,
the case of F and not B means means no Germanic changes,

Yes it could be spoken at 6 century,
but is not a clear indicator of Romanian,
since both words torna and fratre can be found in many IE languages,
It could be Celtic, Getto-Thracian, simpleThracian, Romano-Latin, even Greek,

it could just a Celtic dialect, or a Latin-Roman language with local aspirations, or Thracian with Celto-Latin sounds/idioms
even primitive Greek,

Romanian is a language evolution, major from Latin/Celtic, so it fits with every Celto-Latin vocabulary
At 6th AD century surely Celto-Roman language was spoken there, and is after the Diocletianus split to Romania (Roman speakers) and Romylia (Roumeli, Greek speakers)

to end this from my side,
YES after Diocletianus linguistic split of languages, primitive Romanian were spoken in today Romania at 6th century AD.
the question is before ocupation of today Romania by Romans,

 

[Yetos]

I don't know what you intend by 'race', but we are indeed Europeans and Caucasians. Perhaps you mean subraces, like Dinaric, Mediterranean, Alpine, Baltic, etc. in which again we Balkanites are a blend of them all, some more and some less in specific ones.

Well yeah, the invaders came from the North, so people obviously were forced to go South. Later on of course there were movements in all directions but not as dramatic as a bunch of barbarians chasing you for being Roman/non-Slavic lol

I can speak about Albanians that the majority of us have a more Northern origin than our current location and the 37 markers dna test seem to support that. We mostly replaced each other with the final destinations being Greece and then from there to Italy.

Greeks did the same by going to Italy, so there you have a Northern shift without even having to include Slavs and Vlachs as a factor.


Personally, I wish that was the case but the R1a is mostly of recent North-East European origin not the ancient one that was found in the Thracian.

If anyone is curious enough, go and check the Albanian bloodline group and notice how in the Minorities section the vast majority of Greeks and Vlachs are I2a-Din and R1a, yet they're the most hardcore Greeks.

About the neo-nations, Yes and No. There have been Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Croatians for 1000 years or more but of course you can't expect Albanians for instance to have been strong and numerous enough to compete with the Byzantine or Ottoman Empire and remain completely independent inside a nation called specifically Albania. Unless Neo means 2000 years or less than yes, we are all neo nations but not so neo people.

In the end, it's the people that matter even though politics and religion are known to have manipulated people's decisions in the Balkans.

Personally, I'm only interested in the people not the nation or the language. Those can be changed easily just like political parties or football clubs. Look at the guy in your picture for example, reddish beard, Albanian looking, radical Greek, all is missing is a genetic test and if he ends up being I2a and R1a like most, it would be the perfect script for a comedy movie on the Balkans.

@ Nik

If I take my genetics
what ethnicity could I be?
nothing else except a neolithic farmer,
yet after neolithic era tribes and nations etc etc
my genes reach today,

No Nik,

we are all Neo-nations in Balkans
we sprunk after the collapse of Ottoman empire, though we were not Ottomans/Turks, we name our shelves Roman citizens, although might have not a single mark,
we could move populations the times of both Roman and Ottoman empire, or emperrors do such,
but we are Neo-nations, starting from Greek revolt, with last the Albanian liberty treaties,
or we can consider last the Bosnia/Herzegovina.

Yes we pre-existed some centuries, or some milleniums, but we are Neo-nations.



As for admixtures?

Name me one pure tribe or nation in balkans,
I think you cant,

 

[Salento]

An observation... This topic was about old languages from Balkans. Otherwise.... other interesting discussions, but too much not to the subject.

i don’t think so. Language moved, mixed, and changed as people moved and settled.

and by the way: “Torna” “Frate” (comeback brother - torna fratello) is very common.
i can say with confidence that about half of the Italian dialects contains Torna and Frate, even my dialect.

Frate in Italian, means “Monk” too.

 

[Nik]

i don’t think so. Language moved, mixed, and changed as people moved and settled.

and by the way: “Torna” “Frate” (comeback brother - torna fratello) is very common.
i can say with confidence that about half of the Italian dialects contains Torna and Frate, even my dialect.

Frate in Italian means: Monk!

Exactly, I don't understand why we're making such a big deal of this. Perhaps I'm not surprised at all because I speak Italian and that is easily understood that they were speaking Latin.

Torna in used in Italian for come back and since in Latin frater is brother and fratres is brothers. So it's not Latin because it doesn't end with -s?

All the ex Roman regions developed their own Vulgar Latin, so frater became fratre. That's a common transformation in Albania too. Four is katre or kater, other is tjeter or tjetre, tomorrow is neser or nesre, etc.

 

[Nik]

@ Nik

If I take my genetics
what ethnicity could I be?
nothing else except a neolithic farmer,
yet after neolithic era tribes and nations etc etc
my genes reach today,

I don't know why you're asking me this. You can be whatever you feel like. Test your aDNA to find out more I guess.

No Nik,

we are all Neo-nations in Balkans
we sprunk after the collapse of Ottoman empire, though we were not Ottomans/Turks, we name our shelves Roman citizens, although might have not a single mark,
we could move populations the times of both Roman and Ottoman empire, or emperrors do such,
but we are Neo-nations, starting from Greek revolt, with last the Albanian liberty treaties,
or we can consider last the Bosnia/Herzegovina.

Yes we pre-existed some centuries, or some milleniums, but we are Neo-nations.

As for admixtures?

Name me one pure tribe or nation in balkans,
I think you cant,

Nation - a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory. It doesn't seem to be a factor when you got your freedom from the usurper.

Not arguing with you, but I can't think of any "non neo-nations" right now besides China. France started as Gaul, spoke Celtic, then Latin, then got it's name from the invading Germanic Franks, developed their local Vulgar Latin languages. Same goes for England, Spain, Portugal, Italy unified in 1861, and no need to even talk about Eastern Europe.

I don't even know why we're talking about this. Are you justifying the map because we have neo-nations?

 

[Yetos]

I don't know why you're asking me this. You can be whatever you feel like. Test your aDNA to find out more I guess.


Nation - a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory. It doesn't seem to be a factor when you got your freedom from the usurper.

Not arguing with you, but I can't think of any "non neo-nations" right now besides China. France started as Gaul, spoke Celtic, then Latin, then got it's name from the invading Germanic Franks, developed their local Vulgar Latin languages. Same goes for England, Spain, Portugal, Italy unified in 1861, and no need to even talk about Eastern Europe.

I don't even know why we're talking about this. Are you justifying the map because we have neo-nations?

No I am not justified nothing,
and partially I disagree here with you,

England is not the old Celtic, but a Saxon Normand etc a Neo-Nation, although aged over millenium
France is not the old Gaulish, but has also Germanic Francs, a Neo-Nation, although aged over a millenium,
today they don't say I am Normand, I am Saxon, or I am Gaul, I am Franc,

Same in Aimos peninsula, we are all Neo-Nations,

 

[gidai]

Exactly, I don't understand why we're making such a big deal of this. Perhaps I'm not surprised at all because I speak Italian and that is easily understood that they were speaking Latin.

Torna in used in Italian for come back and since in Latin frater is brother and fratres is brothers. So it's not Latin because it doesn't end with -s?

All the ex Roman regions developed their own Vulgar Latin, so frater became fratre. That's a common transformation in Albania too. Four is katre or kater, other is tjeter or tjetre, tomorrow is neser or nesre, etc.

The words were spoken by an ethnic soldier from south of the Danube. Interesting, his words were misunderstood by other no-locals soldiers. And that's, I think is important.
The words resemble those of romance (vulgar latin + maybe Traco-Dacian, old Celtic ?) languages spoken in Balkans by the Romanians and Aromanians.

 

[Nik]

The words were spoken by an ethnic soldier from south of the Danube. Interesting, his words were misunderstood by other no-locals soldiers. And that's, I think is important.
The words resemble those of romance (vulgar latin + maybe Traco-Dacian, old Celtic ?) languages spoken in Balkans by the Romanians and Aromanians.

Yes, the words were misunderstood meaning they understood that they have to go back because the enemy is attacking. Meaning they knew what he was saying but they just didn't know torna wasn't meant for the soldiers.

 

[blevins13]

Offcourse,

Dal-mat,

Dals = sea, als = sea

comprare makedonian language, Hesychius, Δαλ-αγχαν = sea



GUYS

I am tired of Stupidity and LIES,

LETS SEE,

STRABO 7 7 8
Appianos civil wars 2.9

want more?

I sugest search why malcom's Noel's book is considered trash,
what he hide in his book at 1990's



DAL-MATia = sea lands according Hesychius and NW Greek dialects or maybe Brygian.
compare Mat-Dei-a Ematheia Gods lands
Mat or Mati is a toponym used even today for land limits,
and has nothing to do with Albanian Delme,

according Hesychius Dalaghan = sea in Makedonian language (NW Greek dialects) Δαλ-αγχαν

If Ptolemy is right,
Then Albanopolis is today Greece W Makedonia
and Skodra is a dwelling of Daco-Thracians known as Germidawa


Appianus believes that Epidamnos, later Dyrrachium was a connection among Greek and Brygians,
he believes that Dyrrachium before taulantes was inhabited by Brygians,

The last of Brygians are mentioned at Lychnitis lake (Ohrid) and at Mygdonians, 2 powerfull places of Makedonian Kingdom,

Dal-Matia=sea-land. I guess this is the only sea land in the Mediterranean to have this particular name....


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[blevins13]

I saw it on Lazaridis' twitter.

This is the source:
https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2018/10/27/συμβουλές-προς-ιλλυροδίφες-1/

Is it incorrect?

What Dna says ?... so far nothing so Lazaridis now discusses linguistics.....??? This seems odd to me. He says ”We don't have aDNA from diff. regions to see if they might correlate with Paleo-Balkan languages. Albanians are one of several populations with low Fst with Mycenaeans (Fig. 2a ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P…) , so I suspect plenty old South Balkan ancestry.” It seem like Kavala market chat.


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[Dianatomia]

I need to understand something.

(no politics, please)

- How much Balkan are the Greeks.

- What kind of Balkans.

- How many types of Greek subgroups are there.

- How much Balkans were the Greeks settlers of Magna Grecia.

- Is there a big difference between Medieval Greeks and Olders.


On the web, I find a lot of opinions presented as facts.
Is getting difficult to filter out bias.

You miss an important question. Where all the Classical Age Greeks in Macedonia, Epirus, Peloponesse, Crete, Ionia and Cyprus genetically entirely similar to each other? Firstly we have to answer that question, only then can we mirror them to the modern Greeks and evaluate any differences. For now, all we know is that even their predecessors, the Bronze Age Mycenaeans, seem quite akin to the modern Greeks. Or better yet, Bronze Age Peloponessians are quite similar to modern Peloponessians. That in itself says a lot. The bulk is undoubtably similar. As for the rate of admixture, the jury is still out on that. Larger claims than that are based on speculations and are absent evidence.

Lastly on that map about Paleo-Balkanic languages. It is anything but a proponent of the Megali Idea. The Paleo-Balkanic languages spoken in the current most Northern territories of Greece resemble maps of the largest expansion of South Slavic languages in 19th century and the early 20nth century.

 

[DuPidh]

Classical Greek in Epirus? Another Lasaridis at Eupedia? Where did you find that? Macedonia also Greek? Greeks are not autosomal Balkan! Just look at the Greek Islands supposed to be the real Greeks. How come?​

 

[Boreas]

You miss an important question. Where all the Classical Age Greeks in Macedonia, Epirus, Peloponesse, Crete, Ionia and Cyprus genetically entirely similar to each other?

Not as much as Turk or Italians buts, Modern Greeks show lots's of diversity. The range is very wide. Also difference between Cypriot-Greeks and Greece-Greeks is more then some south slavic nations in Balkan.

Greeks are not autosomal Balkan! [/LEFT]

If not Greeks, that means Albanians are not too.

Who is autosomal Balkan? Bosnia?

 

[Yetos]

Angela,

stupidity run this thread too I think,

from Paleo-Balkan linguistic, just look what we read,

there are few here that are not mature enough to distinguish the differences among a goat,a female dog, and a woman,
the difference among 3000 BC or 100 AD and Sevres treaty,

Plz close the thread,

 

[LABERIA]

Angela,

stupidity run this thread too I think,

from Paleo-Balkan linguistic, just look what we read,

there are few here that are not mature enough to distinguish the differences among a goat,a female dog, and a woman,
the difference among 3000 BC or 100 AD and Sevres treaty,

Plz close the thread,

No, please, why closing this thread? We are reading with pleasure your posts here. Please, leave the stupidity of others aside and continue with your intelligent posts. You are the biggest asset of this forum.

 

[Yetos]

No, please, why closing this thread? We are reading with pleasure your posts here. Please, leave the stupidity of others aside and continue with your intelligent posts. You are the biggest asset of this forum.

I am not expecting something wise, or something scientific from someone who posted,
that the languages spoken at 1rst Century AD, must critisized under the 'eye' of Sevres' treaty of 20th century,

Map of Megali Hellas after the Treaty of Sèvres and featuring a picture of Eleftherios Venizelos.

what else can someone expect ?

 

[blevins13]

Angela,

stupidity run this thread too I think,

from Paleo-Balkan linguistic, just look what we read,

there are few here that are not mature enough to distinguish the differences among a goat,a female dog, and a woman,
the difference among 3000 BC or 100 AD and Sevres treaty,

Plz close the thread,

Kacifas wants to put an end to the stupidity of its neighbors....that is sweet.


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