Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Agricultural origins on the Anatolian plateau

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Agricultural origins on the Anatolian plateau



    We demonstrate that the initial spread of farming outside of the area of its first appearance in the Fertile Crescent of Southwest Asia, into Central Anatolia, involved adoption of cultivars by indigenous foragers and contemporary experimentation in animal herding of local species. This represents a rare clear-cut instance of forager adoption and sustained low-level food production. We have also demonstrated that farming uptake was not uniform, with some forager communities rejecting it despite proximity to early farming communities. We also show that adoption of small-scale cultivation could still have significant social consequences for the communities concerned. The evidence suggests forager adoption of cultivation and initiation of herding was not necessarily motivated by simple economic concerns of increasing levels of food production and security.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/14/E3077

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/agr...and-dispersal/

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,810
    Points
    367,470
    Level
    100
    Points: 367,470, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    We demonstrate that the initial spread of farming outside of the area of its first appearance in the Fertile Crescent of Southwest Asia, into Central Anatolia, involved adoption of cultivars by indigenous foragers and contemporary experimentation in animal herding of local species. This represents a rare clear-cut instance of forager adoption and sustained low-level food production. We have also demonstrated that farming uptake was not uniform, with some forager communities rejecting it despite proximity to early farming communities. We also show that adoption of small-scale cultivation could still have significant social consequences for the communities concerned. The evidence suggests forager adoption of cultivation and initiation of herding was not necessarily motivated by simple economic concerns of increasing levels of food production and security.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/14/E3077

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/agr...and-dispersal/
    I don’t have the data at my fingertips. Do you have in your records a genetic comparison between the first farmers in the south west corridor versus Pinharbarsi and Boncuklu?
    How can they come to conclusions like this with no dna evidence? Was there a change over time in autosomal dna, mtdna and ydna? It’s like a paper for Europe from before we had ancient dna. What they conclude is possible, but who says there was no gene flow from south to north along with the “technology”?

    I’m not surprised that it took a long time to “take over”, especially if they were in an area where they could basically stay sedentary and eat well because they were near marshlands and had all those nuts. It’s a drastic change in lifestyle otherwise, something that modern hunter-gatherers find extremely difficult.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Afaik, we only have DNA from Boncuklu and Tepecik, which was different from Levantine or Iran DNA.
    The study refers to continuity in lithics.
    Genetic continuity since mesolithic and similarity with Asikli Höyük (and Tepecik) in Cappadocia is possible, but not proven.
    Tepecik, which is later and more eastern was similar to Boncuklu but already showed some signs of influx of Iran neo or CHG DNA.
    The Boncuklu/Tepecik paper also concluded that at Boncuklu there were local HG who adopted some form of agriculture.
    Allthough EEF were quite similar to Boncuklu/Tepecik there must have been a small genetic input when Central Anatolia adopted cattle and pottery (8.5 ka).
    It is visible in the Y-DNA in Mentese/Barcin and in Early European Farmers, which had apart from G2a, C2a and I also some T, H2, J and E1b1b1.

    What strikes me is the landscape, fauna and vegetation which was probably very favourable for HG during the mesolithic and PPN.
    It contrasts with todays landscape and climate on the Konya plain.

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I don't follow when they say the people of Catal Hoyuk were the same as those of Boncuklu.
    Both Asikli Hoyuk and Boncuklu were abondonnend around the time Catal Hoyuk was founded, so likely some people from Boncuklu were among the first inhabitants of nearby Catal Hoyuk, but the architecture and the subsistence mix of Catal Hoyuk resembles very much that of Asikli Hoyuk.
    And probably people from Asikli Hoyuk were genetically similar to those of Boncuklu.

  5. #5
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Here we have some hint on the environment 9.2 - 7 ka :

    Abstract
    Carbon and oxygen isotope ratios in the shells of the freshwater Unio mollusc yield information on the isotopic composition of the water in which the shell was formed, which in turn relates to climatic conditions prevailing during the bivalves’ life span. Here we analysed shells from one modern Unio, from a modern lake shore in Anatolia, and 4 subfossil Unio shells from Çatalhöyük (dated between 7200 BC and 5000 BC, Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods). Sequential carbon and oxygen isotope analysis along the surface of the shells provides information on seasonal or shorter-term variability of lake waters during the lifetime of the organisms. δ18O values of the modern shell are consistent with it being collected from a dammed portion of the Seyhan River that does not undergo intensive summer evaporation. This is in contrast to many of the surface water bodies in Anatolia which suffer extensive evaporation in the arid summers. δ18O values of the subfossil shells from the Çatalhöyük middens indicate that the bivalves came from lakes which evaporated extensively during the summer months but were replenished by high winter rainfall, suggesting that the subfossil shells lived in relatively small lakes or ponds. Stable isotope analysis along the growth of freshwater bivalves is one of the few methods for investigating seasonal water fluctuations in the past. These results may alter current interpretations on the environment of Çatalhöyük during the Neolithic, although more work is needed to confirm these initial findings.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...05440311003219

    The same happened at Tepecik, which was a lake/pond becoming dry just before Tepecik was founded.
    It exposed all the obisidian which was lying at the bottom of the pond.
    Check Turkish wikipedia for this and use translator.

  6. #6
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,810
    Points
    367,470
    Level
    100
    Points: 367,470, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Here we have some hint on the environment 9.2 - 7 ka :

    Abstract
    Carbon and oxygen isotope ratios in the shells of the freshwater Unio mollusc yield information on the isotopic composition of the water in which the shell was formed, which in turn relates to climatic conditions prevailing during the bivalves’ life span. Here we analysed shells from one modern Unio, from a modern lake shore in Anatolia, and 4 subfossil Unio shells from Çatalhöyük (dated between 7200 BC and 5000 BC, Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods). Sequential carbon and oxygen isotope analysis along the surface of the shells provides information on seasonal or shorter-term variability of lake waters during the lifetime of the organisms. δ18O values of the modern shell are consistent with it being collected from a dammed portion of the Seyhan River that does not undergo intensive summer evaporation. This is in contrast to many of the surface water bodies in Anatolia which suffer extensive evaporation in the arid summers. δ18O values of the subfossil shells from the Çatalhöyük middens indicate that the bivalves came from lakes which evaporated extensively during the summer months but were replenished by high winter rainfall, suggesting that the subfossil shells lived in relatively small lakes or ponds. Stable isotope analysis along the growth of freshwater bivalves is one of the few methods for investigating seasonal water fluctuations in the past. These results may alter current interpretations on the environment of Çatalhöyük during the Neolithic, although more work is needed to confirm these initial findings.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...05440311003219

    The same happened at Tepecik, which was a lake/pond becoming dry just before Tepecik was founded.
    It exposed all the obisidian which was lying at the bottom of the pond.
    Check Turkish wikipedia for this and use translator.
    Didn't one of the recent papers hypothesize that increasing aridity was one of the factors propelling the farmers toward Europe?

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Didn't one of the recent papers hypothesize that increasing aridity was one of the factors propelling the farmers toward Europe?
    there was the 8.2 ka climate event which was quite severe
    but EEF were allready in NW Anatolia and Bulgaria ca 8.5 ka and by 8.2 ka they were allready in the Carpathian Basin and in the Adriatic
    maybe around 8.2 ka there were some extra arrivals in Europe from Central Anatolia
    by around 7.7 ka Catal Hoyuk was abandonned

    8.2 ka was also the time farmers arrived in Armenia and Transcaucasia and even Central Asia (Jeitun)

  8. #8
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    the swamped area east of Konya on google maps, with the Karadag volcano in the south (Madensehri)

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/37...!4d33.08?hl=en




  9. #9
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,825
    Points
    33,429
    Level
    56
    Points: 33,429, Level: 56
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 821
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    We demonstrate that the initial spread of farming outside of the area of its first appearance in the Fertile Crescent of Southwest Asia, into Central Anatolia, involved adoption of cultivars by indigenous foragers and contemporary experimentation in animal herding of local species. This represents a rare clear-cut instance of forager adoption and sustained low-level food production. We have also demonstrated that farming uptake was not uniform, with some forager communities rejecting it despite proximity to early farming communities. We also show that adoption of small-scale cultivation could still have significant social consequences for the communities concerned. The evidence suggests forager adoption of cultivation and initiation of herding was not necessarily motivated by simple economic concerns of increasing levels of food production and security.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/14/E3077

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/agr...and-dispersal/
    From the latest genetic studies on ancient DNA I have started to think that those hunter-gatherer populations that were the nearest to the earliest agricultural communities tended to see an expansion of agricultural and pastoral economy more via cultural diffusion (as was once thought by scientists, only in a much shorter range), and only when agriculture had developed for a time long enough (and caused an unprecedented local population growth) and also become totally consolidated, the demographic boom of farmers and pastoralists could happen virtually replacing hunter-gatherers in other regions.

    But by then, millennia after the first experiments, different genetic structures around the homeland of agriculture and animal domestication in the Fertile Crescent (more like the Levant) had already become competitors in that technology and also increased their numbers too much to become easily displaced and mostly replaced by the migrating farmers. That could explain why there was probably an increasing - and not decreasing - genetic impact of the farming/pastoral populations as you move further from the Fertile Crescent birthplace of agriculture. The first Levantine farmers and herders did not displace the Anatolian and the Iranian natives, and they also don't seem to have replaced most of the North African natives either, instead mixing with them, but still with significant population continuity. Coincidentally or not all those genetic structures that went on to have their own expansions lived arond the Levant to its north, east and west.
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 04-01-19 at 19:20.

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,602
    Points
    54,072
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,072, Level: 72
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,478
    Overall activity: 39.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    From the latest genetic studies on ancient DNA I have started to think that those hunter-gatherer populations that were the nearest to the earliest agricultural communities tended to see an expansion of agricultural and pastoral economy more via cultural diffusion (as was once thought by scientists, only in a much shorter range), and only when agriculture had developed for a time long enough (and caused an unprecedented local population growth) and also become totally consolidated, the demographic boom of farmers and pastoralists could happen. But by then, millennia after the first experiments, different genetic structures around the homeland of agriculture and animal domestication in the Fertile Crescent (more like the Levant) had already become competitors in that technology and also increased their numbers too much to become easily displaced and mostly replaced by the migrating farmers. That could explain why there was probably an increasing - and not decreasing - genetic impact of the farming/pastoral populations as you move further from the Fertile Crescent birthplace of agriculture. The first Levantine farmers and herders did not displace the Anatolian and the Iranian natives, and they also don't seem to have replaced most of the North African natives either, instead mixing with them, but still with significant population continuity. Coincidentally or not all those genetic structures that went on to have their own expansions lived arond the Levant to its north, east and west.
    early PPNB - 10.7 ka there was clearly trade between 3 populations - cereal farmers from the Levant and upper Euphrates, herders from the Eastern Taurus mountains and obsidian miners from Cappadocia, but the exchange of DNA remained rather limited
    the first ones to expand were the herders, into Louristan 10 ka and Mehrgarh 9 ka
    EEF expanded only ca 8.5 ka, 2200 years after early PPNB, and after they had just learned about pottery, cattle and dairy production

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,429
    Points
    6,899
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,899, Level: 24
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    I think we can already see Farmer expansion in Lepenski Vir and Iron_Gates HG's " mtdna H13 ". Lepenski Vir is fought to have been somehow transitional between hunting, fishing and herding. There was maybe already a first wave from Anatolia before the common " Starcevo " phase. Maybe even ( big extrapolation incoming ) that early balkans pastoralist " R1b-V88 " were pushed until reached Spain and later North Africa.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •