Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314
Results 326 to 331 of 331

Thread: The spread of 'Steppe' DNA and autosomal best-fit analysis

  1. #326
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,608
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,608, Level: 14
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 70.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Just a question, if Steppe is roughly an equal amount of CHG and EHG component, if a sample coming from Yamnaya shows 20% of EEF, for exemple. Does that mean he is an outlier, or does that mean he has Steppe + EEF? Sometimes i'm confused with the terminology used, for exemple with the Caucasus paper, do they not are implying that every Steppic individual with more than 60% of CHG are in fact Iran Farmers with EHG ancestry = Steppe? How exactly is Steppe ancestry calculate, what are the requierements for a sample to be labeled Steppe, or to be labeled Outlier, or something else?
    'Steppe DNA' is an unclear and often misleading concept. As understood here (as a mix of substantially EHG and CHG), it only ever really predominated in the North Caspian area (with the CHG having spread up the Caspian from the South) during the period between the mid 5th and the mid 3rd millennia BC. West and East of here, the DNA was different. Before and after this period in the North Caspian, the DNA was different.

    Early in its formational period, some of it spread into the Eastern Balkans (Suvorovo), and further CHG also spread to a lesser degree into the Eastern Balkans (Cernavoda) some time later. The majority of EHG and CHG in Western Europe seems to descend from these two movements, and not from fully-formed Steppe DNA bearers, some of whose DNA appears to have been subsumed into other larger populations and some to have fizzled out altogether.

  2. #327
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,608
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,608, Level: 14
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 70.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    From your theories, you should look at Ukraine Eneolithic I5884 - it's Y DNA Z2103 with no CHG
    Thanks for noticing this, which is indeed a striking sample:

    1. Its autosomal DNA has this best-fit - 69% indigenous Ukraine (various), 23% Polish Baltic Globular Amphora and 9% Baltic Mesolithic (various). To get the perfect fit, you would need to skew it further North, so it looks very much like an admixture of Ukrainian R lineages with Baltic I-Z161, and (given its estimated date of 2,800 BC) provides some evidence suggesting a recent Globular Amphora insertion from the North West (perhaps a split-off from GA, which otherwise appears to have retreated northwards under pressure from Corded Ware expansion).

    2. Given that its autosomal DNA is still majority indigenous Ukrainian, its tiny CHG component indicates that 'Steppe DNA' was not prevalent in the heart of the Ukrainian Steppe (and specifically, was not prevalent in R1b-L23 Steppe communities as far West as Ukraine) even by as late as 2,800 BC.

    My reading of all this is that Z2103 at formation was pretty much an undiluted EHG lineage (the only common factor between Pontic and Caspian 3,000 BC samples).

  3. #328
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,608
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,608, Level: 14
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 70.0%


    Country: UK - England



    The key to explaining proto-Bell Beaker might be the late insertion of its WHG-CHG combination, which seems to match exclusively with an admixture of Chalcolithic Ukraine (with a bit of Globular Amphora thrown in) and Western Caucasus. The only realistic candidate for this combination would seem to be the Dnieper, Dniester and Danube deltas during Cernavoda - or does anyone have any other suggestions?

    In which case, what happened to the EEF-EHG admixed people who inhabited the Eastern Balkans/Carpathians before Cernavoda? There is little autosomal trace of them in Cernavoda-Ezero. Some look like they headed West into Vucedol Croatia. Were others (more admixed with Cernavoda) the forerunners of R1b Bell Beaker? If so, from where specifically would they have emerged? Do we have any DNA data from cultures marginal to Cernavoda-Ezero, like Cotofeni? Or do we have any DNA from late 4th millennium BC/early 3rd millennium BC South West Balkans or Southern Italy?

  4. #329
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,608
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,608, Level: 14
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 70.0%


    Country: UK - England



    So far I have data for three diverse early western R1b-M269 samples with predominantly Steppe-infused Balkan Chalcolithic aDNA profiles (El Portalon’s ATP3 3,400 BC, Vucedol’s I3499 2,775 BC and various German Bell Beakers 2,400 BC).

    Amongst other early samples, I can find only two that demonstrate clear traces of admixture from similar Balkanic profiles - Otzi (Austria) and I0172 (Central Germany), both dated to around 3,250 BC. In both, the relevant admixture is heavily diluted (comprising only around 5-7% of their aDNA), indicating that the Balkan Chalcolithic-like components of their ancestry arose at least several generations previously, i.e. pre- 3,300 BC. My suggestion is that this was occasional admixture that occurred as groups of Balkan origin migrated westwards, leaving some genetic traces in the populations they passed through.

    We know that Steppe-infused Balkan peoples had migrated to North Western Romania (Decea Muresului) by around 4,000 BC, and that there were archaeological links between these people and early 4th millennium BC sites like Csongrad in Hungary. We can see samples with similar aDNA profiles or traces of this DNA in Northern Spain, Austria and Central Germany, probably all originating around 3,400 BC, and another a few hundred years later in Croatia. The prevailing culture in Hungary appeared to collapse around 3,500 BC. Diversity analysis (both STR and SNP diversity) based on precise yDNA phylogeny gives similar date estimates for basal R1b-L51 development around 3,700 BC, each coalescing to West Central Europe.

    This all suggests to me a two-stage Danubian route of semi-steppic R1b-L51 from the Balkans into Western Europe - firstly into the Upper Danube region (Transylvania/Hungary) around 4,000 BC, and secondarily North of the Alps across into West Central Europe around 3,500 BC. If so, this would have followed the Neolithic expansions, but preceded the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware periods and even the period of Yamnayan expansion.

  5. #330
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,374
    Points
    5,971
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,971, Level: 22
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 79
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    So far I have data for three diverse early western R1b-M269 samples with predominantly Steppe-infused Balkan Chalcolithic aDNA profiles (El Portalon’s ATP3 3,400 BC, Vucedol’s I3499 2,775 BC and various German Bell Beakers 2,400 BC).

    Amongst other early samples, I can find only two that demonstrate clear traces of admixture from similar Balkanic profiles - Otzi (Austria) and I0172 (Central Germany), both dated to around 3,250 BC. In both, the relevant admixture is heavily diluted (comprising only around 5-7% of their aDNA), indicating that the Balkan Chalcolithic-like components of their ancestry arose at least several generations previously, i.e. pre- 3,300 BC. My suggestion is that this was occasional admixture that occurred as groups of Balkan origin migrated westwards, leaving some genetic traces in the populations they passed through.

    We know that Steppe-infused Balkan peoples had migrated to North Western Romania (Decea Muresului) by around 4,000 BC, and that there were archaeological links between these people and early 4th millennium BC sites like Csongrad in Hungary. We can see samples with similar aDNA profiles or traces of this DNA in Northern Spain, Austria and Central Germany, probably all originating around 3,400 BC, and another a few hundred years later in Croatia. The prevailing culture in Hungary appeared to collapse around 3,500 BC. Diversity analysis (both STR and SNP diversity) based on precise yDNA phylogeny gives similar date estimates for basal R1b-L51 development around 3,700 BC, each coalescing to West Central Europe.

    This all suggests to me a two-stage Danubian route of semi-steppic R1b-L51 from the Balkans into Western Europe - firstly into the Upper Danube region (Transylvania/Hungary) around 4,000 BC, and secondarily North of the Alps across into West Central Europe around 3,500 BC. If so, this would have followed the Neolithic expansions, but preceded the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware periods and even the period of Yamnayan expansion.
    Lengyel Culture?

  6. #331
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,608
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,608, Level: 14
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 70.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Lengyel Culture?
    Difficult to say, as all our DNA samples are early Lengyel, i.e. dated to pre-4,400 BC (before steppic people would have arrived). I believe Gimbutas noted that Hungarian Lengyel appears to have been 'kurganised' by Lower Danube cultures only around 4,000 BC. My suggestion would be that R1b-M269 was represented within this process (along with haplogroups I and G), but probably didn't come to dominate until later.

Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •