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Thread: The spread of 'Steppe' DNA and autosomal best-fit analysis

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Wait, we have Suvorovo samples?
    We have about 40 Suvorovo cemeteries, each containing mostly up to 10 graves. Disappointingly, I am aware of only 2 samples being analysed for DNA, and even more disappointingly mtDNA only. The mtDNA is however revealing in that both of the samples' haplotypes of K are found only in the Middle East. These samples are in a Transylvanian site linked with copper deposits and showing signs of EEF/Anatolian admixture (narrow faces and gracile skulls).

    We know that there was a Suvorovo cemetery near Varna. We know that the copper found in cemeteries right across to Eastern Ukraine was sourced from Bulgaria. The dates of the earliest Suvorovo cemeteries in Bulgaria match the dates of two samples found in Chalcolithic Bulgaria (Varna and Smyadovo) - the aDNA of both samples best fits with an almost exact 50:50 split between Khvalynsk and Central Anatolian Neolithic. I would say that both samples are almost certainly Suvorovo-descended.

    I wonder whether people don't want to find out anything more about Suvorovo DNA, because it appears to bear little resemblance to Sredny Stog, its culture looks to have spread from West to East, and it throws a spanner in the works of the cliche that everything originated with Yamnayans. The tacit assumption is that the Suvorovo, after spreading and flourishing over a huge area, died and out and disappeared completely, leaving no descendants or DNA traces whatsoever. This is not an assumption that I find believable, especially when Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Vucedol and El Portalon all autosomally best-fit with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    We have about 40 Suvorovo cemeteries, each containing mostly up to 10 graves. Disappointingly, I am aware of only 2 samples being analysed for DNA, and even more disappointingly mtDNA only. The mtDNA is however revealing in that both of the samples' haplotypes of K are found only in the Middle East. These samples are in a Transylvanian site linked with copper deposits and showing signs of EEF/Anatolian admixture (narrow faces and gracile skulls).

    We know that there was a Suvorovo cemetery near Varna. We know that the copper found in cemeteries right across to Eastern Ukraine was sourced from Bulgaria. The dates of the earliest Suvorovo cemeteries in Bulgaria match the dates of two samples found in Chalcolithic Bulgaria (Varna and Smyadovo) - the aDNA of both samples best fits with an almost exact 50:50 split between Khvalynsk and Central Anatolian Neolithic. I would say that both samples are almost certainly Suvorovo-descended.

    I wonder whether people don't want to find out anything more about Suvorovo DNA, because it appears to bear little resemblance to Sredny Stog, its culture looks to have spread from West to East, and it throws a spanner in the works of the cliche that everything originated with Yamnayans. The tacit assumption is that the Suvorovo, after spreading and flourishing over a huge area, died and out and disappeared completely, leaving no descendants or DNA traces whatsoever. This is not an assumption that I find believable, especially when Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Vucedol and El Portalon all autosomally best-fit with it.
    If we only have two samples and mtDNA only it’s basically useless, but from what you say I’d agree it sounds like Steppe+farmer. I wonder whether it’s indeed possible that the Corded physical type, with its narrow face, dates to this admixture, but I doubt it as Corded Ware only seems somewhat admixed with EEF (and I believe phenotypically distinct)

    At the moment, I’m putting my bet on CW being Eneolithic Ukraine + Meshoko

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    L51 from France ??? Until 2600 BC, R1b is nowhere to be seen in western Europe, save a few outliers who had probably come along with the "farmers". After 2500 BC, they suddenly show up all over central and western Europe. Either L51 had been in Hungary since the old Suvorovo pocket for centuries, or they came along with Yamna Danube.

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I7041 / M
    Find location: Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor
    Country: Hungary
    Associated label in publication: Hungary_BA
    Date: 2500–2200 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H1b1
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (L151)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)
    Comments: null
    Other references: null

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5666 / M
    Find location: Lochenice
    Country: Czech Republic
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2500–1900 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U4a2c
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 (L2)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5025, RISE567 / F
    Find location: Kněževes
    Country: Czech Republic
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2500–1900 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5b2c
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): null
    Reference: 1240k of shotgun data in AllentoftNature2015
    Colour group: Steppe (autosomal)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6480 / M
    Find location: Velké Přílepy
    Country: Czech Republic
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2500–1900 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U4a2
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 (L2)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I7271 / M
    Find location: Brandýsek
    Country: Czech Republic
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2500–2200 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U4a2
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 (L2)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I7212 / M
    Find location: Radovesice
    Country: Czech Republic
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2500–2200 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1b1a1+199
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 (L2)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID: RISE564.SG
    Location: Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
    Haplogroup name
    R1b1a1a2a1 (L51)

    Sample ID: I5529
    Location: Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria
    Haplogroup name
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 (L2)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I4132, RISE560 / M
    Find location: Augsburg Sportgelände, Augsburg, Bavaria
    Country: Germany
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5a1a1
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
    Reference: 1240k of shotgun data in Allentoft Nature 2015
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5748 / M
    Find location: De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
    Country: The Netherlands
    Associated label in publication: Beaker The Netherlands
    Date: 2579–2233 calBCE (3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): X2b4
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5757 / M
    Find location: Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Dolmen XI
    Country: Switzerland
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
    Date: 2469–1984 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H3af
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I2575 / M
    Find location: La Fare, Forcalquier
    Country: France
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Southern France
    Date: 2475–2210 calBCE (3895±40 BP, GrA-22988)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1c1
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): no_data
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (autosomal)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6472 / M
    Find location: La Magdalena, Madrid
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): HV0b
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6588 / M
    Find location: Humanejos, Madrid
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2500–2000 BCE
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5b2b3
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5665 / M
    Find location: Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos
    Country: Spain
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
    Date: 2280–1984 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a24a
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Steppe (R1b)
    Comments: null
    Other references: null

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/07j243zv81..._Tree.pdf?dl=0

    A great new archaeogenetic resource, showing geographical positions and ancient dates of R1b tree[branches and backbone included] +/- of R1b-Z2103/L51+[brother clades] and R1b-L23!

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It doesn't predict coalescence there, it predicts an origin there. The subclade that split from the rest of L51 at the earliest point (400 years only after L51 was born) is majorly distributed around Southern France and surrounding regions about the West Med. And what do we know, those stelae I mentioned earlier have a huge hotspot in S. France, and these stelae date to the late neo/copper age transitional period...

    .
    Please, could you tell me which is this very subclade born 400 years after L51 you mention here? Thanks beforehand.

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    More thoughts on minor early West/Central European R1b Steppe-like lineages -

    Vucedol (Croatia) - Its autosomal best-fit is Bulgarian Steppe-admixed Chalcolithic (probably Suvorovo) with some Iberian Steppe-admixed Chalcolithic and some Cucuteni-Tripolye (the best-fit has no Yamnayan element). Its yDNA has been identified as G2a2 (similar to Bulgarian Chalcolithic/Cucuteni) and Z2103. However, its Z2103 looks to be of a basal kind unrelated to that found in Yamnaya - its calls are positive for one Z2103-equivalent SNP (Z2105) and negative for another (Y12537), suggesting that it is formational Z2103 that branched off from extant Z2103 before 3,500 BC and is unrelated to all Z2103 surviving today. It appears to be a root branch of R1b-L23 that, like L51, only locates to the West of the Steppe.

    El Portalon ATP3 (North Central Spain)- Its autosomal best-fit is Bulgarian Steppe-admixed Chalcolithic (probably Suvorovo) that is significantly heavier on the Anatolian than on the Steppe (the best-fit has no Iberian Neolithic element). Its yDNA has been identified as R1b-M269, but what is often overlooked is that it is also has a positive call for a L21 SNP with no intervening negatives (Y17204). This SNP is rare today, with only a few modern day samples coalescing to Western France. Perhaps it is an example of a R1b-P312 lineage that pre-dated Bell Beaker, and was mostly usurped by related Bell Beaker lineages?

    Are we looking here at three related-looking very early R1b offshoot branches that are all western (formational Z2103 in Croatia, pre-Bell Beaker L51 in North Central Spain and Bell Beaker L51 in France)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Please, could you tell me which is this very subclade born 400 years after L51 you mention here? Thanks beforehand.
    Per yfull's estimates, the two subclades born at that point were Z2118 and L52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Please, could you tell me which is this very subclade born 400 years after L51 you mention here? Thanks beforehand.
    Z2118 and L52 - I was referring to Z2118, but I believe L52 also has a distribution about the Northern Med (France etc.)

    This is the map of Z2118:


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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It doesn't predict coalescence there, it predicts an origin there. The subclade that split from the rest of L51 at the earliest point (400 years only after L51 was born) is majorly distributed around Southern France and surrounding regions about the West Med. And what do we know, those stelae I mentioned earlier have a huge hotspot in S. France, and these stelae date to the late neo/copper age transitional period...

    .
    Please, could you tell me which is this very subclade born 400 years after L51 you mention here? Thanks beforehand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Please, could you tell me which is this very subclade born 400 years after L51 you mention here? Thanks beforehand.
    I've said, R-Z2118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Per yfull's estimates, the two subclades born at that point were Z2118 and L52.
    Thanks Pip.
    the L52 would be 1 French
    I found 2 Z2118*: 1 Italian and 1 Turk
    + 1 SNP: 2: 1 English and 1 Italian
    + 2 SNP: 6: 3 Germans, 1 Italian, 1 Irish, 1 Puerto Rico (which country?)
    If I understand well, not only Southwestern?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I've said, R-Z2118
    OK, my message has been repeated by error. Thanks.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks Pip.
    the L52 would be 1 French
    I found 2 Z2118*: 1 Italian and 1 Turk
    + 1 SNP: 2: 1 English and 1 Italian
    + 2 SNP: 6: 3 Germans, 1 Italian, 1 Irish, 1 Puerto Rico (which country?)
    If I understand well, not only Southwestern?
    If you're referring to the yfull database, I don't think the Turk is Z2118*, but just Z2118 awaiting full analysis. I would also say that * does not necessarily imply origin, and often appears to signal just one of a number of sub-divisions.

    My coalescence calculations, based on a larger and wider database (FTDNA), all indicate Northern France.

    More about the French L52 sample later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    If you're referring to the yfull database, I don't think the Turk is Z2118*, but just Z2118 awaiting full analysis. I would also say that * does not necessarily imply origin, and often appears to signal just one of a number of sub-divisions.

    My coalescence calculations, based on a larger and wider database (FTDNA), all indicate Northern France.

    More about the French L52 sample later.
    Looking forward to that. Is there any chance you could make a contour map as a percentage(!) like Rocca did for Z2118 (the L51 map I posted)? He did it based on a paper (Myers 2010 or something like that?) I don't know how useful FTDNA is though, as some regions as massively oversampled (e.g. British Isles and America has SO much more than basically any other region)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Looking forward to that. Is there any chance you could make a contour map as a percentage(!) like Rocca did for Z2118 (the L51 map I posted)? He did it based on a paper (Myers 2010 or something like that?) I don't know how useful FTDNA is though, as some regions as massively oversampled (e.g. British Isles and America has SO much more than basically any other region)
    Does anyone truly knows how he came up with that map?
    From Shulaveri Shomu to Bell Beakers
    (https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Does anyone truly knows how he came up with that map?
    Rocca made it from the Myres et al paper from 2010, so it's reliable. Even without the map though, lots of lines of evidence point to Iberia and Southern France

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Rocca made it from the Myres et al paper from 2010, so it's reliable. Even without the map though, lots of lines of evidence point to Iberia and Southern France
    That is what I don't get. How he made it using meyers et al? Can you re do it using that paper?
    It looks like he used Solé-Morata et al 2017. If so he just used the percentages identified as M269 (xp312) to build the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    That is what I don't get. How he made it using meyers et al? Can you re do it using that paper?
    It looks like he used Solé-Morata et al 2017. If so he just used the percentages identified as M269 (xp312) to build the map.
    The map dates to 2012

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The problem is that Myres but also Busby made maps, and they do'nt match perfectly one to another; and maybe is would be good to look at map of Y- L11/P151 that show other thing spite it doesn't contradict 100% the maps of L51.
    Other problem: these maps seem showing absolute percentages; as I had already asked to Maciamo for all haplos, without answer (I think it's a lot of work), it would be interesting to have the relative percentages to other Y-R1b, and, royal luxury, percentages compared to upstreams to L51 and percentages compared to downstreams.
    I know no more where I had the maps we discuss sometimes, but I think they did not mention asbsolute or relative %'s so I think it was absolute %. It can change interpretations of supposed "trails".
    I don't exclude totally the southern unique road for L51 or pre-L51 and re-expansion later towards North and East as BBC seems showing AT FIRST SIGHT ; in this hypothesis, L11 and future U106 could have evolved from a North Atlantic West-East coastal move. But today, the distribution of U106, and even ancient DNA, seems checking an East-West move in North Europe or at least North the Carpathians towards maybe Unetice, and Saale post-CWC region. L11 seems strong in Estonia, and I don't know if I can explain it by a not too numerous late pop (less downstreams) of L11+U106 from Germanics. Only an U106 subclades study in Estonia could help here, and better of course, anDNA from there.
    What we can suppose is that L51 began to increase demographically around Central Europe and exploded bewteen Central- and West-Europe (SW Germany-E+SE France); the ancestors of U106 could have "wintered" between Moravia and S-Poland before move more northernwards accross ancient CWC and TRBK lands. In Central-Eastern Europe we have to take in account some shifts (Balts, Slavs) that could have reased other pops (R1b, I2a2, these last ones also found today in pops of North Russia).
    I think we know very little about the LN BA cultures of the European Northern plain: some new surveys could give us a lot of surprises. Look at the rising of Y-I2a2 in ALPC and GAC, and the "Mars" folk of the Y-I1's, when they seemed definitely swept off or absent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    The problem is that Myres but also Busby made maps, and they do'nt match perfectly one to another; and maybe is would be good to look at map of Y- L11/P151 that show other thing spite it doesn't contradict 100% the maps of L51.
    Other problem: these maps seem showing absolute percentages; as I had already asked to Maciamo for all haplos, without answer (I think it's a lot of work), it would be interesting to have the relative percentages to other Y-R1b, and, royal luxury, percentages compared to upstreams to L51 and percentages compared to downstreams.
    I know no more where I had the maps we discuss sometimes, but I think they did not mention asbsolute or relative %'s so I think it was absolute %. It can change interpretations of supposed "trails".
    I don't exclude totally the southern unique road for L51 or pre-L51 and re-expansion later towards North and East as BBC seems showing AT FIRST SIGHT ; in this hypothesis, L11 and future U106 could have evolved from a North Atlantic West-East coastal move. But today, the distribution of U106, and even ancient DNA, seems checking an East-West move in North Europe or at least North the Carpathians towards maybe Unetice, and Saale post-CWC region. L11 seems strong in Estonia, and I don't know if I can explain it by a not too numerous late pop (less downstreams) of L11+U106 from Germanics. Only an U106 subclades study in Estonia could help here, and better of course, anDNA from there.
    What we can suppose is that L51 began to increase demographically around Central Europe and exploded bewteen Central- and West-Europe (SW Germany-E+SE France); the ancestors of U106 could have "wintered" between Moravia and S-Poland before move more northernwards accross ancient CWC and TRBK lands. In Central-Eastern Europe we have to take in account some shifts (Balts, Slavs) that could have reased other pops (R1b, I2a2, these last ones also found today in pops of North Russia).
    I think we know very little about the LN BA cultures of the European Northern plain: some new surveys could give us a lot of surprises. Look at the rising of Y-I2a2 in ALPC and GAC, and the "Mars" folk of the Y-I1's, when they seemed definitely swept off or absent.
    You should paragraph, nobody is going to want to read all of that

    The problem is that Myres but also Busby made maps, and they do'nt match perfectly one to another; and maybe is would be good to look at map of Y- L11/P151 that show other thing spite it doesn't contradict 100% the maps of L51.

    Other problem: these maps seem showing absolute percentages; as I had already asked to Maciamo for all haplos, without answer (I think it's a lot of work), it would be interesting to have the relative percentages to other Y-R1b, and, royal luxury, percentages compared to upstreams to L51 and percentages compared to downstreams.

    I know no more where I had the maps we discuss sometimes, but I think they did not mention asbsolute or relative %'s so I think it was absolute %. It can change interpretations of supposed "trails".

    I don't exclude totally the southern unique road for L51 or pre-L51 and re-expansion later towards North and East as BBC seems showing AT FIRST SIGHT ; in this hypothesis, L11 and future U106 could have evolved from a North Atlantic West-East coastal move. But today, the distribution of U106, and even ancient DNA, seems checking an East-West move in North Europe or at least North the Carpathians towards maybe Unetice, and Saale post-CWC region. L11 seems strong in Estonia, and I don't know if I can explain it by a not too numerous late pop (less downstreams) of L11+U106 from Germanics. Only an U106 subclades study in Estonia could help here, and better of course, anDNA from there.

    What we can suppose is that L51 began to increase demographically around Central Europe and exploded bewteen Central- and West-Europe (SW Germany-E+SE France); the ancestors of U106 could have "wintered" between Moravia and S-Poland before move more northernwards accross ancient CWC and TRBK lands. In Central-Eastern Europe we have to take in account some shifts (Balts, Slavs) that could have reased other pops (R1b, I2a2, these last ones also found today in pops of North Russia).

    I think we know very little about the LN BA cultures of the European Northern plain: some new surveys could give us a lot of surprises. Look at the rising of Y-I2a2 in ALPC and GAC, and the "Mars" folk of the Y-I1's, when they seemed definitely swept off or absent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    The problem is that Myres but also Busby made maps, and they do'nt match perfectly one to another; and maybe is would be good to look at map of Y- L11/P151 that show other thing spite it doesn't contradict 100% the maps of L51.
    Other problem: these maps seem showing absolute percentages; as I had already asked to Maciamo for all haplos, without answer (I think it's a lot of work), it would be interesting to have the relative percentages to other Y-R1b, and, royal luxury, percentages compared to upstreams to L51 and percentages compared to downstreams.
    I know no more where I had the maps we discuss sometimes, but I think they did not mention asbsolute or relative %'s so I think it was absolute %. It can change interpretations of supposed "trails".
    I don't exclude totally the southern unique road for L51 or pre-L51 and re-expansion later towards North and East as BBC seems showing AT FIRST SIGHT ; in this hypothesis, L11 and future U106 could have evolved from a North Atlantic West-East coastal move. But today, the distribution of U106, and even ancient DNA, seems checking an East-West move in North Europe or at least North the Carpathians towards maybe Unetice, and Saale post-CWC region. L11 seems strong in Estonia, and I don't know if I can explain it by a not too numerous late pop (less downstreams) of L11+U106 from Germanics. Only an U106 subclades study in Estonia could help here, and better of course, anDNA from there.
    What we can suppose is that L51 began to increase demographically around Central Europe and exploded bewteen Central- and West-Europe (SW Germany-E+SE France); the ancestors of U106 could have "wintered" between Moravia and S-Poland before move more northernwards accross ancient CWC and TRBK lands. In Central-Eastern Europe we have to take in account some shifts (Balts, Slavs) that could have reased other pops (R1b, I2a2, these last ones also found today in pops of North Russia).
    I think we know very little about the LN BA cultures of the European Northern plain: some new surveys could give us a lot of surprises. Look at the rising of Y-I2a2 in ALPC and GAC, and the "Mars" folk of the Y-I1's, when they seemed definitely swept off or absent.
    What do you mean by relative percentage, percentages are already relative. If you mean one percentage relative to another to form some kind of relative percentage, I've no idea how that fits in anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    The map dates to 2012
    Ok. Really interesting.
    Sole-Morata et al 2017 shows something that is awkward for a east to west entry of R1b to the region of Bell beakers, Portugal.

    Like in the Map of L51 you have shown, Portuguese people today have a level of M269 XP312 that is not at all "Iberian" but similar to levels only, only, found in Norwest France (Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais) which is the French region that differ from the rest o France, where levels of M269 not P312 is very low indeed. That low level of L51 (?) is also true in TSI (Tuscany 1000 genomes). UK had the highest.

    The point is ...

    1. Portugal with 12% of M269-XP312 (L51?) is much higher than all other Spanish places, TSI (Tuscany area) and France.
    2. Then, the level of Portuguese that are P312 xDF27 is the lowest. So, when P312 entered Portugal was already pretty much DF27.
      1. Note- All labs better start looking for Df27 on Europe ancient samples…

    3. Spain is DF27 +Z196. Portugal is not. Portugal has lowest Z196 than even the rest of Europe were we find DF27! And we know that the TMRCA of the son Z196 is very similar to father DF27. They knew each other!

    To me, it tells me that the story of L51 departing from the estuary TAGUS river is pretty plausible. We know that there were bell beaker originals and the ones returning centuries later. The ones with steppe admixture (DF27).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Ok. Really interesting.
    Sole-Morata et al 2017 shows something that is awkward for a east to west entry of R1b to the region of Bell beakers, Portugal.

    Like in the Map of L51 you have shown, Portuguese people today have a level of M269 XP312 that is not at all "Iberian" but similar to levels only, only, found in Norwest France (Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais) which is the French region that differ from the rest o France, where levels of M269 not P312 is very low indeed. That low level of L51 (?) is also true in TSI (Tuscany 1000 genomes). UK had the highest.

    The point is ...

    1. Portugal with 12% of M269-XP312 (L51?) is much higher than all other Spanish places, TSI (Tuscany area) and France.
    2. Then, the level of Portuguese that are P312 xDF27 is the lowest. So, when P312 entered Portugal was already pretty much DF27.
      1. Note- All labs better start looking for Df27 on Europe ancient samples…

    3. Spain is DF27 +Z196. Portugal is not. Portugal has lowest Z196 than even the rest of Europe were we find DF27! And we know that the TMRCA of the son Z196 is very similar to father DF27. They knew each other!

    To me, it tells me that the story of L51 departing from the estuary TAGUS river is pretty plausible. We know that there were bell beaker originals and the ones returning centuries later. The ones with steppe admixture (DF27).
    It seems though, looking at the overall distribution of modern L51 subclades, that L51 developed around the West Med. Nothing more specific can be said, as when you deviate from looking at the bigger picture things like founder effects can cloud conclusions. Trying to link it to the specific region in Iberia (and one not on the Mediterranean either) where Bell Beaker pottery is thought to have originated is unfounded. I'd have to see more evidence (mainly archaeological) to connections with Chalcolithic SE Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What do you mean by relative percentage, percentages are already relative. If you mean one percentage relative to another to form some kind of relative percentage, I've no idea how that fits in anywhere.
    OK. ... You don't see the differences? If you compare current absolute % between regions at 98% R1B with region (TODAY) at say 10% R1b, you take the risk to false conclusions. IMO, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK. ... You don't see the differences? If you compare current absolute % between regions at 98% R1B with region (TODAY) at say 10% R1b, you take the risk to false conclusions. IMO, of course.
    I don't get what you're saying. The Rocca map shows what proportion of people have that subclade, don't see what more there is to it.

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    Before I get excited, why hasn't anybody mentioned this?

    Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I1388 / M
    Find location: Marlens, Sur les Barmes, Haute-Savoie
    Country: France
    Associated label in publication: Beaker Southern France
    Date: 2455–2134 calBCE (3805±40 BP, Ly-3099)
    MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H
    Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
    Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
    Colour group: Anatolian farmer (autosomal)
    Comments: Clusters closer to Anatolian farmers in f-statistics (sup info p. 155)
    Other references: null



    I1388, Bell Beaker FR CA (2455–2134 BC), Kit T122731
    1 Basque_Spanish + Basque_Spanish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 3.817203

    Last edited by ToBeOrNotToBe; 21-01-19 at 00:56.

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